[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by tadiou

Re: Above.

Ichneumon Druid is absolutely hilarious. I approve. I also think the Wolfir Silverheart (I mean, I do love that card v. much) would be much better suited for a Thragtusk. Thragtusk is literally one of the best cards hands down that you can play with 4 GSZ in any format that has miracles & burn. Is Peacekeeper your out vs Sneak and Show? What about Omni-Tell?

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The reason Wolfir is a big one in this deck is Lingering Souls; though thragtusk is a good suggestion!
Peacekeeper can be an out to sneak and show, but also vs very aggressive decks. Omni-tell is not a much-used deck around here, but I suppose Qasali/Peacekeeper could be an out.
The MU I hate the most are unfair decks like combo. Normally after SB-ing in a lot of hate, I would stand an alright chance, so I am curious what Living Wish will do (little experience with it, as of yet).

Hello again all,

Just been wondering about the card Gaze of Granite. Since it can hit planeswalkers, could Pernicious Deed be swapped out for it? Do the facts that it requires two skulls to cast and that it remains in your hand until you cast it make it unplayable? I'm not asking because I'm on a budget. I've got the Deeds so I'm just curious. (I assume that since no one has adopted it I've got my answer already.)

@Gtf

I was actually asking Tadiou if he (or she) was at SCGCincy, since it seemed as if, from the way he or she spoke, that he or she was. In any case, are you still at 61 cards in your list? I've moved back and forth between two Decay mainboard and one (between 61 and 60 cards) and I was wondering if you've encountered higher variance in your 61-card list. I have found space for a third (or second) in the board, as it just seems indispensable in some matchups.

Edit: Also, are you still running Jitte?

One reason is that deed can come down on T3 and you can activate it later on. Gaze, all of the mana has to be paid in that one turn, which makes it very susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce or something. Plus having deed just sit on board vs Miracles to stop entreat or something is also a common play

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

Hello again all,

Just been wondering about the card Gaze of Granite. Since it can hit planeswalkers, could Pernicious Deed be swapped out for it? Do the facts that it requires two skulls to cast and that it remains in your hand until you cast it make it unplayable? I'm not asking because I'm on a budget. I've got the Deeds so I'm just curious. (I assume that since no one has adopted it I've got my answer already.)

@Gtf

I was actually asking Tadiou if he (or she) was at SCGCincy, since it seemed as if, from the way he or she spoke, that he or she was. In any case, are you still at 61 cards in your list? I've moved back and forth between two Decay mainboard and one (between 61 and 60 cards) and I was wondering if you've encountered higher variance in your 61-card list. I have found space for a third (or second) in the board, as it just seems indispensable in some matchups.

Edit: Also, are you still running Jitte?

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I'm down to 60 and no abrupt decays main, 1 in the board. It is really good in some matchups but I think it's necessary to max out on the best cards that jump start your engine (4 explorer, 4 brainstorm, 4 Deathrites). It's certainly a close call. I've cut Jitte since I found that whenever I was bringing it in, I didn't have card that I was thrilled to be boarding out for it. In other words, I think it is mostly helpful in matchups that are already good (except maybe elves). So I found the space more necessary for other things.

Gaze being able to hit planeswalkers is interesting. However I still think the downside of not being able to invest the mana over 2 turns makes it worse enough that I'd rather have deed. I haven't actually tested it.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

One reason is that deed can come down on T3 and you can activate it later on. Gaze, all of the mana has to be paid in that one turn, which makes it very susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce or something. Plus having deed just sit on board vs Miracles to stop entreat or something is also a common play

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^Pretty much this

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I've been on 61 for as long as I've been on Nic Fit (approaching 3 years now), and have never had an issue with it. There've been a lot of debates throughout the thread on it -- general consensus is that there isn't really a consensus. Mostly comes down to personal taste...some people would rather have the slightly higher % of having a given card in your opening hand / drawing that card, some would rather have an extra copy of something, an extra land, an extra toolbox option, or what-have-you.

My thought is that when you play a deck with 4 Tutors like green sun and such, having the extra green sun target in the main for random situations will be alot better than the extra few percentage points you lose when running 61

Anyone have any thoughts on mcdarbys PW BUG fit list? Anyone know him and could get him to post some thoughts?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...g/daily/ur/299

Selvala is extremely playable for GBW variants.

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The idea of a BUG Walkers (or GBW Walkers) list has been tossed around in here for basically as long as Nic Fit has been a thing. There's a few things that I don't agree with, but obviously he's had a lot of success with it.

@Gigapatrick

I wasn't at SCG Cincy, but I should (employment gods be willing), be at SCG Somerset/New Jersey. I have the car, the room, the decks, i just have to figure out if I'll have a job by then so I could actually afford it.

I'm just hoping that when I go there I'm not going to be faced up vs burn for 1/3rd of my matches.

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Originally Posted by benofzongo

Anyone have any thoughts on mcdarbys PW BUG fit list? Anyone know him and could get him to post some thoughts?

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I tested it a bit. My main problem with it was that after landing a jace, your brainstorms are surprisingly poor. You often draw into redundant planeswalkers and lands. The mana curve is high, and explorer doesn't totally solve this issue. The Combo matchups are also pretty bad since the deck is full of cards that don't do anything (innocent blood, veteran explorer) so you have to devote a ton of SB spots to fixing it.
I ultimately gave up on the deck because I just think Pod is better and doing the kind of thing it wants to do. But before I gave up, I made the following changes which I think helped:
Add Garruk Relentless. It has great synergy with other planeswalkers, is a nice removal spell, and gives you a reasonable win condition. I'd recommend playing 2 in the deck and cutting down to 1 or 0 karns.
I think I cut the ponders/hymns (maybe left 1 ponder) for 3 Deathrite Shaman. The card helps you accelerate your planeswalkers if veteran explorer isn't showing up and is just a generally great card in the format. I think the anti-syngergy with deed and innocent blood is not that bad, and you have cabal therapies to sacrifice them to as well and jace to make up the card advantage.
The deck also has a serious problem with Creeping Tar Pit, so you might try squeezing in a wasteland or two.

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Originally Posted by GtF

I tested it a bit. My main problem with it was that after landing a jace, your brainstorms are surprisingly poor. You often draw into redundant planeswalkers and lands. The mana curve is high, and explorer doesn't totally solve this issue. The Combo matchups are also pretty bad since the deck is full of cards that don't do anything (innocent blood, veteran explorer) so you have to devote a ton of SB spots to fixing it.
I ultimately gave up on the deck because I just think Pod is better and doing the kind of thing it wants to do. But before I gave up, I made the following changes which I think helped:
Add Garruk Relentless. It has great synergy with other planeswalkers, is a nice removal spell, and gives you a reasonable win condition. I'd recommend playing 2 in the deck and cutting down to 1 or 0 karns.
I think I cut the ponders/hymns (maybe left 1 ponder) for 3 Deathrite Shaman. The card helps you accelerate your planeswalkers if veteran explorer isn't showing up and is just a generally great card in the format. I think the anti-syngergy with deed and innocent blood is not that bad, and you have cabal therapies to sacrifice them to as well and jace to make up the card advantage.
The deck also has a serious problem with Creeping Tar Pit, so you might try squeezing in a wasteland or two.

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I'll echo this. The deck basically looks like bugstill Nic Fit edition, which is fine and good, but I think that more can be done. Losing Green Sun's Zenith makes sense since Explorers are the only creatures, but losing Zenith also seriously hinders your ramp development since you'er reliant on naturally drawing / Brainstorm for Explorers, which is subpar. I would consider Nature's Lore as the backup ramp source -- possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder, but I like the idea of grabbing duals with Lore to fix the divergent color requirements. The full 4 Bloods and Deeds make sense and I like those. I'd actually like to see a Deluge or a Damnation and maybe a pair of Decays as an additional removal, or perhaps to diversify the suite to solve more problems better.

Gitaxian Probe is strong and all, but it almost seems like a crutch to me. I hit the majority of my Therapies unassisted (admittedly, I've been playing with Therapy for wayyyyy too long now). Probe does help keep the blue count up for FoW postboard, which is good, but it's just too low-impact imo. Same with the Ponders and Hymns -- they feel too much like McDarby is trying to acquiesce to "accepted legacy standards," which I disagree with. Nic Fit isn't your standard legacy deck -- it doesn't function the same way, and trying to shoehorn in these low-impact support cards are going to end up with too many games where you run out of gas. Ponder is reasonable card selection, but I'd value Top more. I guess he might be still be trying to hedge blue count?

Running only 1 Baleful Strix is criminal in this deck IMO -- it blocks for planewalkers for days, cantrips, and is blue. I would also like to see 1-2 Batterskull in the 75 (adding 1 to 76, but that's my preference). This is also exactly the type of Nic Fit I would run an Aetherling in. 4 Jaces is 1 too many -- I would happily go down to 3 and incorporate a new 'walker of some kind, possibly Garruk, Primal Hunter (I don't think that Relentless does what this deck wants to do). Kiora is a strong contender as well, as is Tamiyo. I don't particularly like Liliana of the Veil, but I understand why he's running it and can accept it.

I disagree with GTF RE@Karn: I think that Karn is definitely fine. I'd agree to back him off to a 1-of, but I'd definitely keep him. He ranges from being either a generic pain in the ass to being genuinely insurmountable depending on the board state when he drops, and he's definitely worth it.

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I just the tl;dr is that I feel that his list is too focused and has too many low-impact cards. I'd look to diversify the threat base, add a backup ramp engine, and make the deck a little more Nic Fit and a little less every other BUG legacy deck in existence.

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful. I've toyed around with the pod version and would like to run it eventually, but I think for now it's above my pay (read "skill") grade. I may be running Punishing Fit this weekend at the LGS though, wondering if anyone has any updated thoughts on that, especially status post TNN.

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Originally Posted by benofzongo

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful. I've toyed around with the pod version and would like to run it eventually, but I think for now it's above my pay (read "skill") grade. I may be running Punishing Fit this weekend at the LGS though, wondering if anyone has any updated thoughts on that, especially status post TNN.

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I am toying with the following list since a few weeks.
No sanctioned events yet with it, but my results are above the average:

3 Swamps
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the burnwillow
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Phyrexian tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal witness
1 Huntmaster of the fell
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Surgical extraction
1 Pyrosalve
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Beast within
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter games

@Ralf:

I like that list a lot, actually, although I would suggest a few changes:

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-1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Primeval Titan

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or
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-1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Badlands

-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Thragtusk

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sideboard:

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-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Slaughter Games

-1 Beast Within
+1 Batterskull

-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Golgari Charm

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There's two maindeck packages you can opt for. Adding Titan/Tower gives you access to the pseudoNightmare engine of the Two Towers, with Titan for easy lategame access. However, with 1 Witness, 1 Huntmaster, 1 Thrag, and 1 Titan, you don't have a ton of high-impact options to get back with Two Towers, and realistically, I'm not sure how great it would really be for you. Thus, the second option of making your mana a bit better and adding a second Thragtusk.

Thragtusk is the guy that 9/10 I want to be casting. He does basically everything that we want to do in Nic Fit, including and especially making blue players cry. Also, he hands down plays the best with Garruk, Primal Hunter of any monster. I played Jedi Jund in standard with those two, and it was very powerful -- they pair very well with each other.

The Badlands is because there will be times where you'll have Forest Fetch and you'll want to grab a B/R source.

2 Deathrites gives you 6 t1 ramp creatures, which I think should be enough, especially with 4 GSZ to ferret them out.

Something that I thought of but did not list was Chandra, Pyromaster. She -might- be good enough as a spicy 1-of to back up GPH in the CA department, but she would need testing and I'm hesitant to recommend her without actually knowing if she's good enough.

Otherwise, I like your maindeck a lot.

For sideboard, I would hands down run the first Golgari Charm over the first Deluge ... and probably the second Charm over the first Deluge as well. It's faster and more flexible, and you already have 3 Deeds as sweep....not sure you need another 'hard' sweeper. A faster, 'soft' sweep should do what you want there -- it still kills TNN and Elves, but has added flex vs Miracles and suchlike.

Beast Within is interesting and I'm reluctant to cut them. Normally that would be the first place I'd look to make space, but I think that they're definitely worth trying. That said, I think 2 is enough -- between Top and GPH (and oodles of removal), you'll find them when you need them. That opens the way for a Batterskull, which I'm rapidly coming to believe is one of the premier sideboard options (or possibly even maindeck options) for Nic Fit of most varieties. It's god against anything fair deck, and can help blindside Burn which can randomly be a challenging matchup.

2 Thoughtseize brings you to 6 t1 discard plays, which should be sufficient to have a reasonable chance of seeing one. I would much rather have the second Slaughter Games over the 7th 1cc discard. Games is simply the best anti-combo card we can run. It doesn't matter what type of combo they are, or if they have Force, or Misdirection, or anything. It simply says, "No."

One thing that I feel I should point out is that you are a little weak to Leyline of Sanctity -- but realistically, white versions are the only ones who can actually fight combo in multiple axes effectively. At least the only combo deck that usually runs Leyline is Sneak and Show, and you have 2 Bridge and 2 REBs for them, as well as Surgical to screw up their Intuition.

Like I said, definitely like it -- those are just what I would change.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Ralf:
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Like I said, definitely like it -- those are just what I would change.

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Thank you Arianrhod !

I'll definitely test your recommendations.
I'll opt for the 2nd Thragtusk package and as for the SB:

+1 Golgari
+1 Batterskull
-1 Toxic deluge
-1 Beast within

However, as a longtime player of one of your Valakut list (the one with 2 SLG main deck), I must confess I was never impressed much by SLG
4 CMC is a lot when it comes to fight "fast combo" and even with a BW package (so that we have virtually 7 copies of it), it was often "too late".

So basically I reached the conclusion that:
1) Thoughtseize is here for 2-3Turn Combo.deck
2) Slaughter is here for Control/Slower Combo.deck

But maybe it's just me...

Last question: "Batterskull", why ?

Except for Burn, I see it more as a win-more card against fair.deck but maybe you have some personal experience with it being huge against certain archetype you could share with me ?

PS: yesterday night I lived the dream:
T1= forest, Veteran
T2= phyrexian tower -> GPH...

Who said saucy ?

I once went t1 Vet t2 Tower -> GPH vs Loampox. He was VERY unhappy with me.

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I don't disagree that Games is slow, but it's an absolute lights-out when it hits. With Thoughtseize/Therapy, they can just draw into another [something that kills you]. Surgical removes that possibility from [target], but it needs the setup of [something] having already been countered/discarded. Games takes names, not prisoners. I agree with not running more than 2 copies of it -- heck, when I'm siding 3 Games in Scapewish, I usually only board two in and leave the third for Wish (exceptions exist, obviously, but in general). That being said, I think that the 2nd copy is important because as slow as it is, you really do want more of a chance at seeing one than a singleton provides. You likely won't have the ability to durdle with Top for too long, so it's not like you can dedicate 2-3 turns to digging for it.

As for Batterskull...

This dips a little into theoretical, but consider the number of times that you've seen Stoneblade decks dominate games with an invincible Batterskull. Nobody plays Krosan Grip anymore, so it's not like the damn thing can actually be gotten rid of shy of discarding it after making them bounce / countering it on the way down. Usually this involves 5 mana + active SFM (1W vial, 3 bounce). However, SFM dies, a lot, and Stoneblade decks frequently hit 8 mana (3 bounce, 5 recast). And even in these situations, where they're essentially time-walking themselves to keep replaying Skull, it still dominates.

Now think about Nic Fit.

I've said before (and will doubtless again) that Time is the single most important resource for Nic Fit as a deck. With enough Time, we can engineer a board state that is strictly insurmountable for most decks. This is one of the reasons that 12post and MUD are nightmare matchups for us -- they have the same ethos, but they go bigger than we do (well, MUD goes as big as we do, just faster at the cost of more instability, but you know what I mean).

Batterskull gains 4 life per swing, with vigilance. I typically use the "red standard" of Bolt when evaluating Time -- 3 life = 1 turn. Thus, on -strictly offense-, ignoring defense entirely, Batterskull gains 4 turns worth of Time per 3 attacks, or 1.25 turns per attack.

Vigilance throws this even more.

Consider a fairly standard RUG scenario. They have a 4/5 Goyf, a few lands, and a Bolt and maybe a useless Daze or Spell Pierce or some other bullshit in their hand. We have a pile of mana, a Batterskull, and say like 12 life. What are their options?

They can swing -- but if we don't block, we swing back to gain the 4 that we just lost back. This traps them into needing to draw a 2nd creature or us just completely locking them out of combat, with us drawing into more threats / removal / threat of Deed each turn. Alternatively they can swing and we can block, in which case we can just bounce/re-cast the Skull. In this scenario they're tying up our mana, but we're actively gaining life as opposed to just staying at 12. We're gaining 4 life/turn in that scenario, which as established above translates to a -1.25 on their clock in our favor.

Or, you know, they could not swing -- in which case we've already won. We're not spending resources, and we've bought multiple draw-steps while they search for some way to deal with the problem...which is probably a singleton Ancient Grudge that they didn't board in anyway. Their other options are digging for a Delver or finding a 2nd Tarmogoyf. That's it. Those are the only profitable options for them.

On top of all of that, you run Punishing Fire. You have the option of blocking their Goyf, gaining 4 life, then Punishing the Goyf to finish it off......and -then- bouncing and replaying the Skull.

It also has another 'mode' where you can actually use it like an equipment. Consider equipping Skull to a Garruk token. That makes a 7/7 lifelink vigilance. Only the halest of Goyfs will punch through that, and, again, you have vigilance where they don't, so at worst you're Mazing their Goyf every turn. 7 lifelink is 2.25 Time per attack. Over 3 turns, (say they had a chump blocker or two), you'll have gained 6.75 Time. If you're playing vs a fair deck (which you are, otherwise Skull wouldn't be sided in), how are they going to effectively deal with that? The things Nic Fit can do in almost 7 turns are profound, to put it mildly.

I'd urge you to proxy a Skull (if you don't own one) and test it out. See for yourself what you think of it -- I can spout theory nonsense all day, but practical experience is what convinces a pilot that a card is good, not theory.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I once went t1 Vet t2 Tower -> GPH vs Loampox. He was VERY unhappy with me.

I'd urge you to proxy a Skull (if you don't own one) and test it out. See for yourself what you think of it -- I can spout theory nonsense all day, but practical experience is what convinces a pilot that a card is good, not theory.

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Ah. I bet you won that game (against Loampox). Anyway, Pox/Loam.deck are usually very unhappy when an explorer enters the battlefield !

It was against JUNK for me (my opponent was very unhappy too...).

Well, thanks for the "SKULL" thing. I'll test it.

Against what kind of deck will you side it in ?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Ah. I bet you won that game (against Loampox). Anyway, Pox/Loam.deck are usually very unhappy when an explorer enters the battlefield !

It was against JUNK for me (my opponent was very unhappy too...).

Well, thanks for the "SKULL" thing. I'll test it.

Against what kind of deck will you side it in ?

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Basically anything that doesn't involve Tendrils of Agony or Show and Tell. Blade, Jund(k), Delver of various stripes, etc. Probably comes in vs Dredge since it laughs at Ichorids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I am toying with the following list since a few weeks.
No sanctioned events yet with it, but my results are above the average:

3 Swamps
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the burnwillow
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Phyrexian tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal witness
1 Huntmaster of the fell
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Surgical extraction
1 Pyrosalve
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Beast within
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter games

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This looks like a really sweet build!

How do you like Vraska? Seems like a good inclusion--Protects herself, has a removal effect. Do you find she's able to finish games out with her Ultimate? It seems like she would have to go unanswered for a relatively long period of time, but even if not, the removal could be worth it.

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@Arianrhod: Batterskull seems awesome in fair matchups. What are you generally boarding out for it? Are you bringing in 1 or 2?

I also really liked your thoughts on the Veteran Planeswalkers deck! I guess my biggest question with it is: could it be a real thing with enough tinkering? I guess the question there is, do creature-based Nic Fit/Pod lists just work better than Planeswalker-based ones? It seems like McDarby's done pretty well with his list, and your suggestions seem like they would help make the deck a bit more focused. I guess I just really like the idea of a Legacy Superfriends deck? Maybe that's dumb :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by taco-hell

This looks like a really sweet build!

How do you like Vraska? Seems like a good inclusion--Protects herself, has a removal effect. Do you find she's able to finish games out with her Ultimate? It seems like she would have to go unanswered for a relatively long period of time, but even if not, the removal could be worth it.

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Vraska has been discussed multiple times in the past.
Some like it, some not.

Personally, I like it "Hot" :D

You can see her as another liliana but with a "license to kill". It can close games and close out them fast.
Funny it is, I found that her +1 is what brings the more "power" to the table because it forces your opponent to react. Period.

In Magic christmas land, Vraska kills 1 turn sooner than GPH.

Anyway, make your own opinion and try to play Vraska in one of your list (or try mine if you want)

This is mostly a question to Arianrhod, I saw your scapeshift lists and there was absolutely nothing in the 75 to combat graveyard strategies. Well, I guess you could count slaughter games but to even make it to the point that you could cast that card (turn 3 if you're optimistic off of a tribe elder or explorer) you're probably dead against re-animator or dredge. Another graveyard strategy that would also pretty much be an auto loss is oops all spells. So my question to you is how do you beat those decks? You certainly can't race them to a combo kill, because they're doing it much faster. Thoughtseize or cabal therapy certainly do work in two of the matchups I mentioned but do close to nothing against dredge.

Currently I'm playing one Scavenging Ooze in the main and two Surgical Extractions in the board to combat graveyard strategies, with the added bonus of surgical hosing most every other combo deck out there. I cannot overstate how important that scavenging ooze has been to actually give a reasonable chance against dredge game one. My list is pretty similar to the "Anti-Delver" one Arianrhod posted beyond those changes and no carpets. Carpet of flowers has been nothing but disappointment for me. If you play against miracles they just start fetching plateau or basic plains. Against deathblade they'll fetch scrubland and perhaps lean a bit more on deathrite. Besides, it's not like Carpet of Flowers advances you towards your main goal which is having actual lands in play, not mana in the pool. I understand that perhaps it allows you to cast more "ramp" spells or a fattie faster but why play something that gets deeded away? I just find there's simply no room for the card in the sideboard, especially with so many slots taken up with wish targets. I'm not playing a second thragtusk because I won't go up to 61 cards but I could see having a second as more incentive to play carpets.

My board looks like this right now:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Slaughter Games

My meta has at least 3 miracles decks in it and slaughter games has always been insane against them. Naming jace is lights out. Especially if you have the deed for entreat. I lived the dream once of casting it twice naming jace and entreat and he was reduced to laughably trying to beat me down with a snapcaster mage (which to his credit he got me reasonably low).

I played against lands at SCG Detroit and he had the nuts two games straight with turn 2 dark depths plus stage because of exploration. Game two he had depths in hand and intuitioned for three stages on my endstep, untapped, played both and I died in short order. The reason I mention this particular matchup is that the only way to reasonably interact with the combo beyond perhaps slaughter games would be surgical. If I had mulliganed more aggressively into one I would have been in good shape to win the game by surgical extractioning one of the stages he had to bin. I asked him after the match what other win conditions he was running and he said the dark depths combo was it beyond punishing fire, which is obviously a slow grindy way of winning but certainly possible. But my point still stands that scapewish needs some way to interact with the graveyard in a manner more timely than slaughter games.

Thoughts on spirit of the labyrinth:

It seems like a sideboard card for the nic fit decks that want to run it. Against most decks, the purpose of it is to gain incremental advantage by disabling cantrips, but it really is not suited for lategame. The body is not big enough to make much of an impact. In addition, it is too narrow to run multiple copies maindeck, and the only ways to tutor for it are slow (academy rector and birthing pod). By the time those cards are active, you'll rarely want to tutor for it and combo will have already won.

In response to the discussion about batterskull, I think I would maindeck it in many versions: it's no more dead against combo than any other bomb.

Just a thought regarding the Miracles matchup: would it be viable to sacrifice Veteran Explorer to Cabal Therapy after they spin Top (referring to tap activated ability: still not sure what 'spinning top' refers to in M:tG terms) so that the top gets shuffled into their library OR they choose to fail to find and we come out two basic lands ahead of them?

Best part is that even if they do brainstorm to save the top, you can still name it with Therapy, meaning the top either gets lost in their library or binned in the yard.

I suppose it would, but how often will they use top in their own turn to draw an extra card? Especially if you have an explorer out they might see the risks of it. Forcing the ability with a abrupt decay seems excessive and better to use the decay for a counterbalance. Blowing up a deed when they have top and you veteran would work though. That will force them to choose.

@EpicLevelCommoner & Useless: unfortunately Cabal Therapy is a sorcery so you can't cast it in response to anything.

Regarding Batterskull against combo/Tendrils I tend to keep 2 mystic and 1 skull (boarding out 1 skull) in my junk build. My reasoning is that you need some way of dealing damage to the combo player; lifegain is relevant since they don't always manage to storm more than 20-25 (seems like it to me at least), especially when losing life points; 4 mana for 5 power is ok; it leaves you a body for Cabal Therapy.

And regarding Spirit of the Labyrinth my plan is to use it as a follow up to discard (4 Therapy + 4 Thoughtseize) to prevent opponent from cantripping into a combo. And Living Wish to get it when it's relevant. Also expecting it to help vs Griselbrand and Enter the Infinite.

@ pettdan: True but it doesnt need to be an instant to use effectively in this scenario. Just proper sequencing.

1. Play Cabal Therapy from hand naming Top.
2. They play Top if they miracle it.
3. Play some kind of removal on Top itself.
4. They spin Top to save it.
5. Play Veteran Explorer then retain priority to flashback Cabal Therapy.
6. They Brainstorm in response to Explorer trigger avoid losing Top to their library.
7. When Cabal Therapy resolves, name Top again.

Like UseLess said, Deed plus Vet is way more efficient, but regardless of which method you choose, the ability to disable a key part of their strategy looks very promising for us.

Just to nitpick. You don't have to retain priority on step 5. Between after you cast it and when it resolves you don't have to retain priority because there's no ETB trigger, there's no need for retaining priority because you have it after your opponent chooses if it resolves or not.

It's also a reasonable assumption that they won't care about the top on their library if they have a Jace in hand or anything.

@EpicLevelCommoner: I see, thanks for the explanation!

A couple of pages back Gtf spoke of how hard the Miracles matchup is for Bug Pod and wondered how we could beat it (besides tight play, of course). Aetherling has already been proposed and adopted, and Abrupt Decay usually sits somewhere in the list, so those are a couple of ways to interact with Miracles (in the case of Aetherling rather, to keep Miracles from interacting with you). How viable would having a couple of decent Planeswalkers on the board be? I'm not sure which Planeswalker would be best in Bug colors, but having a Planeswalker on the battlefield that presents a decent threat so that Miracles simply can't sit around and do its thing seems like a reasonable strategy. Thoughts anyone?

@Conch:

My stance on graveyard decks with Scapewish is that it takes too much effort to fix, and therefore isn't worth trying. 2 Surgicals and 1 Ooze is not sufficient to effectively interact with Reanimator, Dredge, Lands, and other such villains -- and I'm saying this as someone whose best friend / roommate mains Reanimator as his deck of choice. He's literally mulled to 4 with Reanimator and beat my keep of 7. It's simply not winnable -- and to fix it would require minimum of 5-7 slots between main and side, which is just infeasible if we want to maintain win percentages against other, more popular decks. Furthermore, most of the effective hate options are narrow (see Tormod's Crypt), and are only useful vs graveyard.

Reanimator is the stone worst of these -- Dredge you can race, and same with Lands. Sometimes Lands will derp into Merit Lage and there's not much you can do about that, but the rest of the time you should be able to race to your combo and just kill them -- they can't interact. Huntmasters and Thragtusks can allow you to soak one hit from Merit Lage -- and if you can get Broodmate Dragon out (if you list runs him at the time), he can soak 2 Lage hits, which should be enough time for you to dig into a Scapeshift or a Wish, hopefully. Vs Dredge, don't forget that your Sakura-Tribe Elders are essentially Surgical Extractions for his Bridge from Belows. Also, don't forget that, while slow, Slaughter Games does technically qualify as graveyard hate. It still does what you want it to do vs Ichorid etc.

As for Carpet, specifically vs Miracles it's kind of a gamble. They do need 1-2 Islands in play to function, and even at 1 Island in play, Carpet is still better than Veteran Explorer is in the matchup. Sometimes the gamble really pays off and they have a hand with like 2 tundra 1 island as their mana sources and your Carpets are huge. Sometimes it doesn't and they have like Island fetch fetch and they play around it. Happens. The thing is that Miracles can take advantage of our Explorers arguably better than we can -- we can both "win the game" with enough basics in play (Entreat vs Scapeshift), but the difference is that they run Force of Will (among other counterspells) and they can protect their counterspells by leaving them on Top of their deck, where we can't interact with Therapy. This gives them the advantage in the ramp war. We need to lean on our Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves in this matchup. I guess you're suggesting still boarding out Veterans, but just not boarding in any other ramp/fixing to replace them?

The main thing that the Carpets are for are vs the various Delver tempo strategies, where we typically need as much mana ramp as humanly possible to fight through their Stifles/Pierces/Dazes/Wastes/etc. If you're not on the 2nd Thragtusk, I can agree that Carpet loses a bit of its luster....although I would reiterate the importance of the 2nd Thragtusk and would suggest that if you're adamant on staying at 60, cutting a Huntmaster for the 2nd Tusk is likely wise. It's possible that the Carpets are best saved for other versions and that they aren't a great fit for Scapewish, but I need to experiment a bit more before I can make that proclamation. I really enjoy a good Carpet of Flowers -- it's just so incredibly backbreaking for tempo and control decks, but I do need to recognize that my love for the card might be coloring my opinion.

Note that if I were to remove Carpets from my sideboard, I would 100% replace 2 of them with Abrupt Decays (bringing me to 4 Decays total in the anti-delver config). If we can't go over the top of the delver deck, we need to interact with them in more traditional terms.

While we're on the subject of Slaughter Games stories, I had so much fun with Games at SCG Columbus a few years ago -- the one where I made top 16. I played vs Miracles twice -- one match I left him with just snapcasters and 1 clique for win conditions, the other IIRC I took his Force of Wills and just killed him. Then, a few rounds later, I played vs High Tide. Oh my god was that guy a sad panda.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

A couple of pages back Gtf spoke of how hard the Miracles matchup is for Bug Pod and wondered how we could beat it (besides tight play, of course). Aetherling has already been proposed and adopted, and Abrupt Decay usually sits somewhere in the list, so those are a couple of ways to interact with Miracles (in the case of Aetherling rather, to keep Miracles from interacting with you). How viable would having a couple of decent Planeswalkers on the board be? I'm not sure which Planeswalker would be best in Bug colors, but having a Planeswalker on the battlefield that presents a decent threat so that Miracles simply can't sit around and do its thing seems like a reasonable strategy. Thoughts anyone?

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BUG Pod - i "fixed" the common build with:

-1 Veteran Explorer (3 total)
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Abrupt Decay (2 @Side)
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Deathrite Shaman (4 total)
+1 Trinket Mage (3 Drop Slot)
+1 Engineered Explosives (Removal Slot / Decay)
+1 Pithing Needle (answers many problematic permanents and nobody expects a maindeck needle)

Against Miracle all works good, Deathrite is much stronger than Explorer (nobody wants to ramp into jace/entreat), Trinket Mage (better Body) brings all the good stuff: Needle vs Sensei or if needed Jace, Explosives vs Entreat, Counterbalance or if needed (with Deathrite Mana) for Jace.

Needle vs Sensei is almost the most important move, if the can't use top the will lose most of the time.

I don't fear Miracle with BUG Pod - sure, Entreat & Jace are stronger than most stuff we can cast, but a lot of "enter the battlefield" creatures (against terminus & co) and/or active pod is still aggressiv enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

A couple of pages back Gtf spoke of how hard the Miracles matchup is for Bug Pod and wondered how we could beat it (besides tight play, of course). Aetherling has already been proposed and adopted, and Abrupt Decay usually sits somewhere in the list, so those are a couple of ways to interact with Miracles (in the case of Aetherling rather, to keep Miracles from interacting with you). How viable would having a couple of decent Planeswalkers on the board be? I'm not sure which Planeswalker would be best in Bug colors, but having a Planeswalker on the battlefield that presents a decent threat so that Miracles simply can't sit around and do its thing seems like a reasonable strategy. Thoughts anyone?

---

Some time ago, I expressed the idea of Combat vs Utility planeswalkers. In a nutshell summary: Utilities are your Jaces, your Lilianas, your Kioras, etc -- they produce card advantage and usually have some variety of removal attached to them. Combat walkers are your Elspeths, your Sorins, your Garruks -- they produce pressure via creating tokens, augmenting the combat step (Elspeth 1.0's redbull), and so forth. I've had a lot of success over time running Combat walkers vs control decks. Legacy is set up to handle Utility walkers -- the Jace and Lily show has dominated for so long that decks are created with ways of dealing with those two. People tend not to run the Combat walkers that much -- and Combat walkers, incidentally, beat the Utility walkers in a heads up confrontation.

Unfortunately for your purpose, most of the combat walkers tend to be white in nature.

Your best bet is probably somewhere in the Garruk family -- Relentless or Primal Hunter. Relentless comes down quicker and does a good bitterblossom impersonation (wolfblossom?), but the tokens are 2/2s and thus trade with Snapcasters. However, Relentless is also more usable vs Delver decks, since at worst case he's a 4-mana removal spell for Delver. Primal Hunter's tokens are better (bigger...they don't trade with Snap and thus keep applying pressure), but he's also slower and his mana is much more restrictive (GGG, baby baby baby). That being said, Primal Hunter also has built in card advantage, and can be a nightmare for control decks because not only does he vomit 3/3s while gaining loyalty, he can also draw 3-5 cards.

-------

This actually has me thinking.

Lorwyn 5:

Jace Beleren -- utility. Best with Sun Titan, which is a color nonbo. Worse than other Jaces in absence of legend rule.
Chandra Nalaar -- utility....no.
Ajani Goldmane -- utility....no.
Liliana Vess -- utility. Reasonable option. 5-spot is rough, but it keeps them hellbent forever and the ult is scary. Can also Demonic Tutor with Top in play.
Garruk Wildspeaker -- utility. Can make a dude, but costs loyalty = bad. Untapping lands could be sweet but Wasteland discourages us from running many cool lands.

Shards:

Elspeth, Knight-Errant -- combat. All-star for white based versions.
Sarkhan Vol -- utility. This actually seems like something that we should consider. Can take their scary thing, or can give a recently played/zenithed guy haste. Ult should win the game.
Tezzeret, the Seeker -- utility. Maybe if some artifact combo ala Vault-Key gets printed.
Ajani Vengeant -- utility. Strong option but suffers from colors -- RW is bad for Nic Fit.
Nicol Bolas, PW -- utility. Arguably the strongest planeswalker in terms of abilities, but Grixis is a bad combination for Nic Fit.

Zendikar:

Nissa Revane -- combat (by virtue of summoning a Chosen). There may be some weird Elves/Nic Fit hybrid somewhere, but I doubt it.
Chandra Ablaze -- haha.
Sorin Markov -- utility. Very color-intensive, but that could be used to our advantage. I could see a straight G/B version with this guy and Grey Merchant.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- utility. Obviously one of the best ever.
Gideon Jura -- combat. This guy is underused imo. Can completely take over a board state, and gets abusive with strong / deathtouching blockers, then proceeds to win game. Downside is that he animates, rendering him open to StP.
Sarkhan the Mad -- utility. Strong consideration for jund colors -- has card advantage, can make a Veteran into a 5/5 flyer, ult is lulzy but Broodmate is a card we sometimes play.

Mirrodin 2.0:

Elspeth Tirel -- combat. worse than other Elspeths.
Venser, the Sojourner -- utility. Powerful set of abilities, but UW is a bad color combination for Nic Fit.
Koth of the Hammer -- combat. Probably not good enough for our purposes.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas -- combat. Powerful abilities, but needs a very specific build to be taken advantage of. I give the nod to combat because if he animates something that was already in play, it can attack out of nowhere...but he has a lot of utility too.
Karn Liberated -- utility. 2nd most powerful next to Bolas. Castable by any Nic Fit -- only really usable as a singleton, but is definitely strong. Note that his utility is somewhat combative -- why attack Jace TMS when you can just straight exile him?

Innistrad:

Liliana of the Veil -- utility. Obviously insane. Not a huge fan of her in Nic Fit, but she can certainly be good for certain builds in certain situations.
Garruk Relentless -- combat. One of the better Garruks. Flipping can be challenging, but is generally fine as a wolfblossom with upside.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad -- combat. One of the best combat options. Lifelinking chumpers/attackers adds Time, emblem can be used when on beatdown, ult is very powerful.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage -- utility. I like Tamiyo, but she's never really actually good enough.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded -- you're kidding, right.

Return to Ravnica:

Jace, Architect of Thought -- utility. Powerful card, but better suited to modern where we don't have the 'best' Jace.
Vraska, the Unseen -- utility. Good removal I guess, but the rest of her kit is kind of mediocre.
Domri Rade -- utility. Solid card advantage in conjunction with Top, but our creatures tend to be smaller than your average Goyf, and thus the -2 is probably irrelevant. Getting him to emblem seems strong, though.
Ral Zarek -- utility. Ultimate is nuts for Nic Fit, but he's in bad colors for us and the rest of his kit leaves to be desired.
Gideon, Champion of Justice -- utility.....and no.

Theros:

Elspeth, Sun's Champion -- combat. My pick for most underrated on the list. Yes, she conflicts with the other playable Elspeth. Yes, this Elspeth costs 6. However, 3 dudes for +1 is absolutely bonkers, and her wrath takes out a lot of problems. Unfortunately she's ill-positioned against Delver and True-Name, but she's very strong against basically everything else.
Xenagos, the Reveler -- combat. His wolfblossom is better than Garruk's, since Satyrs have haste. He can also serve as mana generation should that be needed. His ultimate is lackluster, but he's probably still slightly better than Garruk Relentless if you're in GR since Relentless flips so rarely.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -- utility. He/she/it is fast, at 3-mana (which means easily t2able after Therapy/Explorer). He/She/It protects themselves by putting something taken into play, which most of legacy's CMC is so low that they'll always be able to get something. I dunno -- this is a consideration.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave -- utility. I loveeeeeee Kiora. She forces the opponent to overcommit into your Deed, she stops lifelink from opposing Batterskulls, she stops Jitte from getting counters (obviously if they only have one creature), she ramps, she cantrips, and her emblem wins games.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes -- utility. Kind of a question mark. Might be better than he first looked....not sure.

Core Set Upgrades:

Ajani, Caller of the Pride -- ....no
Chandra Pyromaster -- utility. Good card advantage, reasonable +1, useless ultimate. I'd guess that she's playable in the same way as she is in modern -- as a 1-of for value.
Chandra, the Firebrand -- utility. Interesting kit with interesting abilities. Her -2 is very build-around. Her +1 is whatever, and her ult is whatever. But copying a Zenith for 5 is insane, let alone if we go deeper, like, say, Genesis Wave....which goes well with Xenagos.....hmmmm....
Jace, Memory Adept -- -- utility. This guy amuses me. He's worse than Jace TMS in the abstract, but he actually kills a lot quicker. I think that this might be the solution to the BUG Pod Miracles problem -- what they hell are they doing to do to him?
Garruk, Primal Hunter -- combat. Good guy, mana intensive, but produces powerful tokens and threatens card advantage. Ult wins the game on the next untap...or immediately if there's a Sarkan Vol involved.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts -- utility. Utility Garruk is bad Garruk. I would rather play Ajani-green over this guy.
Liliana of the Dark Realms -- utility. no.

There's a breakdown of all of the planeswalkers which are currently in existence. When Dack comes out, he'll be a "utility - no."

---------------

The take-away:

Jace, Memory Adept is probably the control breaker that BUG Pod is looking for. Ashiok is another reasonable option, but shines more against things like Shardless and Deathblade than it does vs Miracles.

Xenagos and Chandra, Firebrand go reallllllllllly well together. I've been thinking about Genesis Wave for a little while now, and this is probably the angle to attack it from. Warp World is arguably better, but unfortunately planeswalkers don't come in off of Warp, so that kind of caboshes that.

Most of the best planeswalkers are white. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is the Titan-cycle of planeswalkers. She's expensive, but she's worth it. The issue is dealing with Delver and TNN -- she handles literally everything else.

Both Sarkhans are probably under-utilized -- especially Vol, which is very powerful in conjunction with a certain class of cards.

Kiora is love, Kiora is life.

@Arianrhod

Thanks for your comprehensive analysis of the planeswalkers. My initial thoughts were to try out either 2 Primal Hunter or 2 Kiora in the board for the Miracles matchup. Primal Hunter as you say puts a lot of pressure on the board and has two other reasonably good abilities (though I'd be careful about the ultimate, since it can be wiped away with Terminus), and getting to three trees to cast him seems feasible (though less so when you take Explorer out for the second game). Kiora, on the other hand, presents an ultimate that wins the game very quickly and protects herself while doing so (while providing a Coiling Oracle effect if you need it). I overlooked Memory Adapt, probably because who really thinks of milling someone as a viable win condition in Legacy? My instinct is to try out Primal Hunter first, since unlike Memory Adapt, I feel like he'd be viable versus other controllish decks (e.g., Deathblade, Jund, Shardless, etc.) whereas Memory Adapt wouldn't be. Again, thanks for the advice.

From experience:

I played Ashiok in my BUG walker fit during 2 months (as a 1-of). It did win me a lot of games against miracle (close to each time I drew it). I imagine Jace, Memory adept would be "faster" in killing but I like the fact that Ashiok is "growing" in loyalties, making it a real pain for Miracle players (quickly out of reach for a clique / SCM).
Anyway, Liliana of the Veil is already such a pain in the as... for Miracle that I would firstly stick with her before considering other options to deal with Control.decks (notwithstanding that she also "represents" kind of inevitability against combo when their hand is depleted...) .


Nicol Bolas / Karn liberated are amazing but can realistically be cast in so few match-ups for NicFit that I doubt they have a room in Legacy right now.

I strongly encourage anyone to try the "green" walkers (relentless and Primal) as they are "DAT" powerful against midrange.decks and help you to overwhelm your opponent's board.

To conclude, as far as legacy is concerned, NicFit "walkers" should at least play Liliana of the Veil. It is just the best "utility" walker for NicFit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

@Arianrhod

Thanks for your comprehensive analysis of the planeswalkers. My initial thoughts were to try out either 2 Primal Hunter or 2 Kiora in the board for the Miracles matchup. Primal Hunter as you say puts a lot of pressure on the board and has two other reasonably good abilities (though I'd be careful about the ultimate, since it can be wiped away with Terminus), and getting to three trees to cast him seems feasible (though less so when you take Explorer out for the second game). Kiora, on the other hand, presents an ultimate that wins the game very quickly and protects herself while doing so (while providing a Coiling Oracle effect if you need it). I overlooked Memory Adapt, probably because who really thinks of milling someone as a viable win condition in Legacy? My instinct is to try out Primal Hunter first, since unlike Memory Adapt, I feel like he'd be viable versus other controllish decks (e.g., Deathblade, Jund, Shardless, etc.) whereas Memory Adapt wouldn't be. Again, thanks for the advice.

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I like the idea of one of the Garruks moreso than Kiora or Ashiok. The reasoning is that if they are playing O-Ring/Detention Sphere and find it for the planeswalker, the latter two have accomplished almost nothing (in Kiora's case, actually nothing if you didn't get to ultimate). The Garruks at least have been pressuring them the whole time and left behind a bunch of creatures they have to deal with. The creatures are also useful for attacking Jace, which is the real way Miracles wins. Garruk Relentless has the advantage of being less mana and the tutoring ability could occasionally be relevant in a pod list. Primal Hunter is more powerful once it's in play. My plan involves siding out Veteran Explorers, which makes me shy away from playing Primal Hunter. A disadvantage of Relentless is that a flashed-in V. Clique kills it in one swing.
A trinket mage to find Needle would also help immensely - Needle is great against Miracles and is the single best answer to Top. It has some negative synergy with Deed, but after playing the matchup, I think Deed is actually not that great. A few could stay in as insurance against entreat the angels, but it is an extremely inefficient answer to counterbalance (5 mana total), blows up our own permanents, which we need to pressure them, and can't deal with a Jace at all.

Deed was a lot more relevant against Miracles when they were on the RIP/Helm plan, because you could let it sit there and use it to stop their combo from being assembled. It's definitely not as good against them anymore.

Went 5-2-1 at Tales 40 duals tournament yesterday with 2 unintentional draws early making it all the way to the last round before getting knocked out
I played Kevins anti-combo scapewish list
Shardless BUG 2-0
Punishing maverick depths- 1-1-1
UWr Delver 2-0
Paintedstone 1-1-1
Shardless BUG 2-1
Lands 2-1
4c Deathblade 1-2

Slaughtergames was amazing against paintedstone and Lands in the main deck and I was fortunate enough not to draw them in my other match-ups, and Huntmaster of the fells won me almost every game. throughout the day I wished I had a second Eternal witness to GSZ for, why was the second one cut? just too narrow?

Playing the deck yesterday I thought I played very well in all the games but feel like I stumbled alot with side boarding, Im always hesitant to take out any ramp and usually just bring in 2 cards and cut the slaughtergames in fair matchups, does anyone have a sideboard guide for the anti-combo version for these MU?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GtF

A trinket mage to find Needle would also help immensely - Needle is great against Miracles and is the single best answer to Top. It has some negative synergy with Deed, but after playing the matchup, I think Deed is actually not that great. A few could stay in as insurance against entreat the angels, but it is an extremely inefficient answer to counterbalance (5 mana total), blows up our own permanents, which we need to pressure them, and can't deal with a Jace at all.

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Trinket + EE covers the same bases as deed vs entreat as well. Just a thought. Needle's good, and when you go down that path, EE's also relevant and you can even run a SB GY hate to fix any problems that you might have in that matchup (even though I haven't had a ton of problems vs reanimator or dredge since i've gone up to 4 DRS's anyway) in tormod's crypt (i wouldn't run relic ever).

EE also can hit troublesome planeswalkers too with a bit of finagling (cough JTMS). And that's not even to say that needle isn't a great answer to a lot of things mainboard. It's a dead card preboard vs rug delver decks (and storm, really), but it's not vs everything else pretty much. Needle on top and EE on 0 vs Miracles is a good place to be in, and you're basically fighting through jaces and v.cliques which is a much better fight to be having than the other aspect of the deck.

I'll probably swing that package this thursday after I finish up my standard testing for SCGNJ this weekend... or I'll end up playing audibling to TES. One of the two.

People were talking about walkers in Nic Fit and specifically the ones good against miracles and I have to put in a vote for Kiora. I had a friend playing it in his Bant sideboard to bring in against all the miracles decks in our meta. One of the miracles players at my shop called it "Unbeatable." I am a little afraid that it's a bit narrow though, because so many of the top decks play true name (which you obviously can't target) or lightning bolt or delver. Still, some of these delver decks play one threat and then try to counter everything else you play for the rest of the game. If you strip him of all his counters and stick the kiora it neutralizes delver. Other decks Kiora could be good against: Cloudpost, MUD, Shardless bug (depending on how threat dense), Pox by virtue of how threat light they are, but probably not delver decks. The aforementioned friend brought in kiora against me while I was playing Sam Blacks Zombardment deck and targeted my goblin bombardment, which was sadly enough to win him the game :tongue:.

Re: Slaughter Games stories. Versus high tide in a tournament for a Moat, in game one I burning wished for slaughter games. My opponent read the card and kept setting up to go off by making land drops, cantripping, and playing candles. I cast it on turn 4 and he tries to force of will it. I pointed at the first line of the card and his face just kind of sank. After naming high tide he immediately scooped. Game two I shredded his hand and slaughter games again sealed the game. This time he cunning wished for the one high tide in his sideboard and tried to go off anyway, but alas, one high tide was nowhere near enough to do anything with.

On Trinket Mage in Bug Pod:

If one were to run him, how many fetchable artifacts do you think you'd need to run maindeck for him to be useful?

Also, while Engineered Explosives seems an obvious inclusion if one runs Trinket Mage, is a maindeck Pithing Needle really where you want to be? Or would you rather have something like Nihil Spellbomb maindeck?

On Kiora:

I can see how she would be unbeatable versus Miracles, or at least very good--but why would you want to bring her in versus a Delver deck at all? I can see bringing her in against midrange decks where she's going to have time to build up to her ultimate, but four mana for an approximation of Maze of Ith against a deck that wants to tempo you out doesn't seem very good to me. Granted, I haven't tested with her, so maybe I'm just underestimating her in this type of matchup, but right now I envision two spots on Bug Pod's board for two walkers that will help with the control matchups (specifically Miracles but also Deathblade, Jund, and Shardless) as opposed to the tempo and aggro matchups. The Delver decks already seem like good MU's, so I think you'd just board in your third Deed. I agree with you though that Kiora might be decent against something like Cloudpost, which takes several turns to set up.