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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElDorte
Yeah i'm Christian Hammer
We have some Reanimator Players at the Tournaments here in Switzerland. And at least 2 of these Players (one in my LGS) play Iona main. I think at the Moment Reanimator is a bit off the Radar. But still a good deck with a lot of good matchups.
Surgical seems a bit loose since we have a pretty tight Sideboard. But i will give it a try.
Atm i struggle more with the Burn Players here really hating on Combo. Last League one of them boarded 10 cards in against me. (4 Pillars, 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Pyroclasms against Empty)
Greetings Christian
Pillar, Eidolon and Leyline all suck against T1/2 Goblins, no? Don't let the Clasms disturb you here. You board CoV anyways against all that crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
entreri_fans
Hi, Lemnear, this list looks cool and interesting! :laugh:
Especially no more chrome moxes which create awkward opening hand / top deck sometimes. Also I am curious to know how much the missing mox will weaken the Ad Nauseam or our speed in general? But at least, I think this list has a more stable and stronger middle/late game:smile:
Have you already had any real match experience with the test list? Would like to hear your opinion about your new list.
Anyway, thanks very much for sharing an interesting list :)
You can flip more cards w/o EtW in the deck and ergo need less IMS overall while you run more rituals to float mana into AN as well. The 14th land and 2nd green manasource is to deal with Tempo decks and Wasteland, also enabling Decays to stay an option in the face of Wastelands. This gets me around stuff like Carpets in the SB. Returned the 3rd Duress to the MB as the switch of EtW for the SB Thoughtseize was a common one postboard against combo and with Counterbalance and S&T everywhere, it appeared reasonable to use a similar config preboard as well.
I will test this idea during one of the Trials in Lille
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Current MB in testing (feat 4 SB Decay):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou
2 Rain of Filth
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
Just my H.O.:
I don't know if you evaluated Tinder Wall as an option, it is even a +2mana card if you play it an sacrifice it on next turn!
Nice to see 4 A.D. in your side!
Please let me know how much 2nd RoF sucks - however I see that card in a 14 lands build like yours - but not sure if will be ok with 0 basics. I undestand that you play 2 just because the statistics to draw that card - but really sucks, if you draw it the second time - that's why I suggest super Tinder Wall! Maybe playing a swamp instead the 2nd bayou is ok... but I see the 2nd to try to get the most of A.D. vs Wastelands.Deck...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Just my H.O.:
I don't know if you evaluated Tinder Wall as an option, it is even a +2mana card if you play it an sacrifice it on next turn!
Nice to see 4 A.D. in your side!
Please let me know how much 2nd RoF sucks - however I see that card in a 14 lands build like yours - but not sure if will be ok with 0 basics. I undestand that you play 2 just because the statistics to draw that card - but really sucks, if you draw it the second time - that's why I suggest super Tinder Wall! Maybe playing a swamp instead the 2nd bayou is ok... but I see the 2nd to try to get the most of A.D. vs Wastelands.Deck...
I did not evaluate Tinder Wall here because it's green and not scaling with the turns played. Even the MB Carpets do a better job, which you hated. I run 4 SB Decay for quite a while. It's necessary in Europe.
I guess it still sucks less than dawing the second Chrome Mox in a single game lol. Rain of Filth is a lategame card which is also pretty good to flip to AN turn 2 and further and as you don't want to see two in a single game the number is fine. As said the 14th land and second green source is to help out against wasteland and taxing effects, so I don't have to bother with SB carpets & Co. or have to fear that a Wasteland shuts off my Decays. Its valid to ponder about the 14th land being a Basic or Tropical at this point.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I did not evaluate Tinder Wall here because it's green and not scaling with the turns played. Even the MB Carpets do a better job, which you hated. I run 4 SB Decay for quite a while. It's necessary in Europe.
I guess it still sucks less than dawing the second Chrome Mox in a single game lol. Rain of Filth is a lategame card which is also pretty good to flip to AN turn 2 and further and as you don't want to see two in a single game the number is fine. As said the 14th land and second green source is to help out against wasteland and taxing effects, so I don't have to bother with SB carpets & Co. or have to fear that a Wasteland shuts off my Decays. Its valid to ponder about the 14th land being a Basic or Tropical at this point.
You mean where Chrome Mox still has applications and Rain doesn't?
Your list has essentially made TES a slower, most likely worse version of ANT. You've slowed the deck down considerably while adding a color (in comparison to ANT). I actually just fail to see why anyone would pilot TES if its essentially the same deck with worse mana. Your list is almost a one-trick pony, if you were going to completely cut Chrome Mox and slow down the deck, you could've added Cabal Rituals to improve the late game PIF.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Been away from TES for months now, but does the newly spoiled Dark Petition have a place in our sideboard?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
New Tutor coming up in Magic Origins:
Dark Petition, sorcery, cost: 3BB
Search for a card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Spell mastery: if there are two or more instants and/or sorceries in your graveyard, add BBB to your mana pool.
Excellent Wish target. Seems like we never ever have to side out Infernal, which is nice. :cool:
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
New Tutor coming up in Magic Origins:
Dark Petition, sorcery, cost: 3BB
Search for a card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Spell mastery: if there are two or more instants and/or sorceries in your graveyard, add BBB to your mana pool.
Excellent Wish target. Seems like we never ever have to side out Infernal, which is nice. :cool:
Yes! Yes! and Yes!
I couldn't believe that, but this is esentially an I.T. for Side!!! with dependency on G.Y. I believe - I can now get rid of my so loved Dimionihing returns! - Holy Shit. on the other hand I have to get rid of my Grim Tutors ASAP... as I only got them for my TNT build!!!
Great ! I'm so happy...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Excellent work Bryant, we share the exact same opinion about both new cards in Magic Origins.
Lemnears list is only a inferior version of ANT with no benefit.With 14 Lands you can't get full advantage and boost of Rain of Filth. Cabal Ritual is the way to go if you want to improve your lategame. But still, this deck wants to power out goblins or Ad Nauseam as soon as possible.
Another thing about Rain if Filth: I use Rain in Ant to get fast ******** for Cabal Rituals. In Tes it is strictly a really bad Dark Ritual.It does nothing on Turn1.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Thank god. I'm tired of reading posts by uneducated Magic players (see: those who have no experience with eternal formats) talk about how busted Day's Undoing is going to be busted.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Thank god. I'm tired of reading posts by uneducated Magic players (see: those who have no experience with eternal formats) talk about how busted Day's Undoing is going to be busted.
Busted? No,not sure who's saying that, but it does present an interesting brewing challenge.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Let's also give it some time, as in give some people some time to try and bust it. That is how things become busted, barring they are reprints of Recall, or named Treasure Cruise.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sawatarix
Excellent work Bryant, we share the exact same opinion about both new cards in Magic Origins.
Lemnears list is only a inferior version of ANT with no benefit.With 14 Lands you can't get full advantage and boost of Rain of Filth. Cabal Ritual is the way to go if you want to improve your lategame. But still, this deck wants to power out goblins or Ad Nauseam as soon as possible.
Another thing about Rain if Filth: I use Rain in Ant to get fast ******** for Cabal Rituals. In Tes it is strictly a really bad Dark Ritual.It does nothing on Turn1.
Oh, being able to work with AN safely while going down to two life, giving shit about yard-hate and still being able to go for the long run isn't something with at least potential benefit? Cabal Ritual + Past In Flames + Dark Petition do nothing against yard-hate. Doesn't stop you from running these either, no? Is it foolish to expect a rise of yard-hate with Storm on everyones Radar and DTT in 55%+ of decks? Pointing at the value of Rain for turn 1 is totally off as it's not meant for that scenario otherwise we can also point at Chrome Moxen drawn turn 3+.
EtW is totally unimpressive atm and there is absolutely no reason to streamline the deck for the Belcher-Mode and burst-EtW if 75%+ of your matchups are against (taxing) counters anyways slowing you down or the opposing deck just kills you within the two/three turns the Goblins would require to kill regardless. Goblins are not good enough atm to sacrifice midgame-potential via Cabal Rituals or Rains for Chrome Moxen to support the Token ambush.
Why do you think 14 lands isn't enough to work with Rain?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Oh, being able to work with AN safely while going down to two life, giving shit about yard-hate and still being able to go for the long run isn't something with at least potential benefit? Cabal Ritual + Past In Flames + Dark Petition do nothing against yard-hate. Doesn't stop you from running these either, no? Is it foolish to expect a rise of yard-hate with Storm on everyones Radar and DTT in 55%+ of decks? Pointing at the value of Rain for turn 1 is totally off as it's not meant for that scenario otherwise we can also point at Chrome Moxen drawn turn 3+.
EtW is totally unimpressive atm and there is absolutely no reason to streamline the deck for the Belcher-Mode and burst-EtW if 75%+ of your matchups are against (taxing) counters anyways slowing you down or the opposing deck just kills you within the two/three turns the Goblins would require to kill regardless. Goblins are not good enough atm to sacrifice midgame-potential via Cabal Rituals or Rains for Chrome Moxen to support the Token ambush.
Why do you think 14 lands isn't enough to work with Rain?
With 14 lands it's likely to be worse than cabal ritual and even chrome mox as for rain of filth to be at all good you want 3+ lands in play and 14 lands doesn't consistently accomplish that even with cantrips. Draw 2 rain of filth is a special kind of bad of course.
I agree with what Bryant said in his article about petition and new twister. One nitpick I have is that petition isn't bad against soft countermagic. It costs 2 mana same as infernal tutor as you can't storm off on BBB in legacy short of cruel bargain/infernal contract and I don't think anyone will be playing those in TES or ANT.
I think the new twister is abysmal. If you're going to pass after a 3 mana spell resolves on your end it might as well be doomsday and passing after resolving doomsday already feels bad enough as the opponent is likely to tear your shit up in a million different ways if you give them a fresh 7. The worst case scenario for the card isn't that unrealistic either in that your opponent draws quite well and you draw dog shit/likely lose on the spot. The worst case scenario that is also very realistic is the opponent putting a show and tell, sneak attack + activation, counterbalance, sensei's top, or something on the stack. I've already seen people advocate for a ban on the card and I'm just going to watch them do nothing with it as it's very fair. The only case I can think of where it could be good is if you get your hand torn to shreds and you resolve it to negate the discard or you are able to resolve it with a lot of artifact mana onboard on turn 1 or something to that effect/actually profit quite well off it.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
With 14 lands it's likely to be worse than cabal ritual and even chrome mox as for rain of filth to be at all good you want 3+ lands in play and 14 lands doesn't consistently accomplish that even with cantrips. Draw 2 rain of filth is a special kind of bad of course.
I agree with what Bryant said in his article about petition and new twister. One nitpick I have is that petition isn't bad against soft countermagic. It costs 2 mana same as infernal tutor as you can't storm off on BBB in legacy short of cruel bargain/infernal contract and I don't think anyone will be playing those in TES or ANT.
I think the new twister is abysmal. If you're going to pass after a 3 mana spell resolves on your end it might as well be doomsday and passing after resolving doomsday already feels bad enough as the opponent is likely to tear your shit up in a million different ways if you give them a fresh 7. The worst case scenario for the card isn't that unrealistic either in that your opponent draws quite well and you draw dog shit/likely lose on the spot. The worst case scenario that is also very realistic is the opponent putting a show and tell, sneak attack + activation, counterbalance, sensei's top, or something on the stack. I've already seen people advocate for a ban on the card and I'm just going to watch them do nothing with it as it's very fair. The only case I can think of where it could be good is if you get your hand torn to shreds and you resolve it to negate the discard or you are able to resolve it with a lot of artifact mana onboard on turn 1 or something to that effect/actually profit quite well off it.
I guess Days Undoing works best in decks like Tezzerator or with Goblin Welder in terms of "combo" aka decks running Chalice to not give away the game by passing the turn but reap a benefit from the mana cost of Undoing by running Sol lands and Signets. FoW+ThirstForKnoedge+Undoing+Chalice sounds fitting.
Petition -> Doomsday is real. Just to mention as an option here.
You seem to have the impression I'm not fine with Rain of Filth acting as a black Rite of Flame turn 2, but simply aiming at having it with 4 lands or the like which isn't the case. I don't think pointing at 2 Rains in terms of drawing multiples is valid if people are fine with playing 3 Moxen. Having like two lands and two Rains is still 3 mana; two lands and two Moxen are just two unless you see it as given to have two more useless cards for imprint. It's wierd to talk about 14 lands not delivering a base for Rain if I look at Kais GP Kyoto Video footage and see him making landdrops without end and even flooding out in the match against Miracles. You wanna really tell me there is a problem of getting to two of more lands in general or because it's totally common to win with 1 land against blue decks?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
You seem to have the impression I'm not fine with Rain of Filth acting as a black Rite of Flame turn 2, but simply aiming at having it with 4 lands or the like which isn't the case. I don't think pointing at 2 Rains in terms of drawing multiples is valid if people are fine with playing 3 Moxen. Having like two lands and two Rains is still 3 mana; two lands and two Moxen are just two unless you see it as given to have two more useless cards for imprint. It's wierd to talk about 14 lands not delivering a base for Rain if I look at Kais GP Kyoto Video footage and see him making landdrops without end and even flooding out in the match against Miracles. You wanna really tell me there is a problem of getting to two of more lands in general or because it's totally common to win with 1 land against blue decks?
You could also run 1x Rain of Filth, 1x Chrome Mox. Problem solved.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
I agree with what Bryant said in his article about petition and new twister. One nitpick I have is that petition isn't bad against soft countermagic. It costs 2 mana same as infernal tutor as you can't storm off on BBB in legacy short of cruel bargain/infernal contract and I don't think anyone will be playing those in TES or ANT.
How is a 5 mana spell not weak to soft countermagic? There's actually a pretty big deal between 2CC and 3 floating compared to 5CC + 3 Mana. The first allows you to play around Daze/Pierce, because if they have it you can get Empty the Warrens and you can cast discard spells before the tutor. Where is if you want to cast discard spells before Petition, you're likely not going to have enough mana.
As for Lemnears list, he's far too focused on beating one deck – he has tunnel vision on destroying Miracles. His list will suffer against Tempo/D&T/Maverick as being slow against them can hurt you, Empty the Warrens is huge there as well.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
As for Lemnears list, he's far too focused on beating one deck – he has tunnel vision on destroying Miracles. His list will suffer against Tempo/D&T/Maverick as being slow against them can hurt you, Empty the Warrens is huge there as well.
According to MTG Top 8 data 28,4% of the Legacy metagame runs Daze, the same percentage runs Pierce and 29,4% for Wasteland, which mark matchups where an improved manageneration is desireable. 75,1% are running FoW to foil greedy turn 1 combos and unprotected kills postboard in any case. 14,4% run Counterbalance, 10% S&T while Aether Vial is down to a mere 5% and Thalia 3,5%.
It's not about Miracles. It's about having more and better mana to overcome these close to 30% of decks running Daze/Pierce/Wasteland which ANT has such a good matchup against thanks to powering through the manadenial and asuming that the T1/2 combo against all these FoW decks is doomed to fail unless you have a real nut draw with +6 mana, Tutor/Wish and discard. I'm fine "suffering" against Maverick and D&T as they are only damn 3,5% of the metagame.
You can't call it tunnel vision, if I prepare for the 75,1% FoW matchups which slow you down regardless, rather than for the 3,5% Thalia.decs. The last real remaining tempo deck aka RUG Delver is less than 2% of the metagame
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
According to MTG Top 8 data 28,4% of the Legacy metagame runs Daze, the same percentage runs Pierce and 29,4% for Wasteland, which mark matchups where an improved manageneration is desireable. 75,1% are running FoW to foil greedy turn 1 combos and unprotected kills postboard in any case. 14,4% run Counterbalance, 10% S&T while Aether Vial is down to a mere 5% and Thalia 3,5%.
It's not about Miracles. It's about having more and better mana to overcome these close to 30% of decks running Daze/Pierce/Wasteland which ANT has such a good matchup against thanks to powering through the manadenial and asuming that the T1/2 combo against all these FoW decks is doomed to fail unless you have a real nut draw with +6 mana, Tutor/Wish and discard. I'm fine "suffering" against Maverick and D&T as they are only damn 3,5% of the metagame.
You can't call it tunnel vision, if I prepare for the 75,1% FoW matchups which slow you down regardless, rather than for the 3,5% Thalia.decs. The last real remaining tempo deck aka RUG Delver is less than 2% of the metagame
Tempo decks are not exclusive to RUG Delver. BUG/Grixis are also mana denial decks. Even if all of those decks are running Daze/Pierce, Empty the Warrens is fantastic against them, it's one of our best tools in the match-up. You're not going to beat those decks by not playing basics (which is one of the reason ANT is successful against them) while running weaker rituals.
You don't have to slow down against blue based decks, an early Empty does wonders against a number of them.
Not to mention, having Chrome Mox is a big deal in the Omnishow match-up in which you need to be fast in.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I won't make a long, detailled report, but I have until Saturday night to make some adjustments. We have our first tournament of the season and people are getting used to my TES. Actually, the questions might be long, but only for the sake of precision.
Today was 2-2. Ok at best, but let's just say the match ups I had luck with last time turned bad this week.
2-0 vs UR Delver (Goblins helped, first time she was playing a blue Delver deck, it showed)
2-0 vs Elves! (easy matchup + new player on Elves!)
1-2 vs Death & Taxes (these Chalices... lost game one after mulligan to 5, then won, then lost again)
0-2 vs Affinity (insane top deck both games, Whipflare to clear Goblins, Cranial Plating after I just discard one in my turn)
My two points of the night
-Death & Taxes might be an easy match up, these Chalices of the Void @0 then @1 are destroying me.
-Affinity seems too fast if you don't win in the first two turn.
While the decks are different, it seems to my (small) experience that they are played the same against: go as fast as possible, before the hate drops down. I either win on T1, or after a Pyroclasm/Grapeshot/Massacre on all the hatebears and build up before they can recover. I've yet to meet a situation in which I can do a fancy EOT CoV on a Chalice to get me a win.
I would like to work on 2 things until Saturday:
1) Hands to keep against these decks
2) Grapeshot, Pyroclasm & Massacre boarding
Sadly, I had horrible draws & mulligans, I don't know how else I could explain it.
For the plan I had, I kept what I considered good hands (missing 1 tutor, but had Ponder & Brainstorm, for instance). Funny part is, it seems I had the same two major issue vs both decks: first, horrible mulligans. On my 5 games vs them, I kept at 7 one, and I won that game. I mulliganed twice to 6, and twice to 5. Hands with no lands nor enough mana to go on first turn. Then, when I keep a hand and try to setup a kill by turn 2 or 3, I either get a Chalice or a Canonist set against me.
My question will then be this one, but I doubt it can be easily explained: in my opening hand, should I rather aim for a turn 1 kill, even if I have to go on 4 cards, or should I instead work around hate?
By the time I find my missing piece, there is something stopping me, all the time. Chalice, Canonist, Thalia, Revoker, or an equipped Cranial Plating to prevent the Ad Nauseam.
In other words, what I tried to do was to get a good, solid hand, to combo as fast as possible vs both decks. It failed all games, leaving me with a single missing piece every time, while they builded their way to win. As it only worked once if 5 games, I'm wondering if the strategy I chose to go for is a good one.
For instance, I lost my first game vs Death & Taxes mostly because of a mulligan to 5, after two hands without lands or reliable mana source. Then, I won with Goblins on turn 1. Third game, I mulligan to 6, get a turn 1 Ad Nauseam combo. Since he's on the play, Chalice @ 0. Little things like that. Was a mulligan to 5 a better idea? Against Affinity, pretty much the same. I get a good mulligan at 6, ready for a turn 2 win. She's on the play. She drops her hand on the floor and has a Cranial Plating equipped on a Vault Skirge. My turn, I play my Ponder, settle things for next turn. She swings for 7 Lifelink, I now have to do 27 damage with a 12 life Ad Nauseam, considering the fetch. It's DOABLE and there are other things to do like Burning Wish for hate, etc, but this week, I couldn't recover after my sweepers. Let's bring up this point now.
Grapeshot, Pyroclasm, and Massacre.
Well first of all, I usually side Grapeshot and Pyroclasm in, and leave Massacre outside. Today, it costed me games twice. Two times did I have a Burning Wish in hand, enough mana to grab a 2CMC sweeper, and couldn't because they were board in. Didn't have enough for Massacre and either you don't get enough juice for your incoming combo, or you're just too short on time to hardcast and then combo. I don't want to cut the Massacre out as it gave me a game vs D&T and Elves!, however I'm starting to think about having in main post board and leave either GS or Pyro in side up to be grabbed. The issue I would see with that is the highest curve for AdN, but how often do you win with AdN in these matchups? Isn't it better to Empty the Warrens after a sweep, when our opponents have no hands or creature? I might have been doing something wrong, but AdN was too slow to build after a sweep.
I'm sure this has been discussed before.
On a TL;DR note, let's make these few scenarios, and see what's the best solution
1) Keep a very fast hand with no protection to combo as fast as possible, either with Empty the Warrens or Ad Nauseam, and try to find CoV, Pyroclasm or the like if needed
2) Mulligan until you find a Chalice hate
3) Keep a defensive hand with Pyroclasm or Grapeshot against Thalia/Canonist/Revoker, then hope to build back quicker than them
4) Please, I need enlightenment.
Or is it too vague to be answered at all? :(
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
For the plan I had, I kept what I considered good hands (missing 1 tutor, but had Ponder & Brainstorm, for instance). Funny part is, it seems I had the same two major issue vs both decks: first, horrible mulligans. On my 5 games vs them, I kept at 7 one, and I won that game. I mulliganed twice to 6, and twice to 5. Hands with no lands nor enough mana to go on first turn. Then, when I keep a hand and try to setup a kill by turn 2 or 3, I either get a Chalice or a Canonist set against me.
My question will then be this one, but I doubt it can be easily explained: in my opening hand, should I rather aim for a turn 1 kill, even if I have to go on 4 cards, or should I instead work around hate?
It might sound dumb, but if you have constant problems of getting mana into your hand, I suspect you shuffle the deck not good enough.If done properly the deck has a solid density of lands to draw into. Did they stick together from previois games? Your mulligan rate is beyond explainable and the bolded part might reveal another problem: You should not mulligan hands just because they do not have 5+ mana turn 1 or 2. I can't make detailed analysis unless you write down hands you kept/mulled, but something is wrong with your evaluation and/or shuffling. You do not get down to 4 like ever. I can barely imagine a T1 mill hand with 4 cards at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
By the time I find my missing piece, there is something stopping me, all the time. Chalice, Canonist, Thalia, Revoker, or an equipped Cranial Plating to prevent the Ad Nauseam.
So? You have Decay/CoV/sweepers for that case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
In other words, what I tried to do was to get a good, solid hand, to combo as fast as possible vs both decks. It failed all games, leaving me with a single missing piece every time, while they builded their way to win. As it only worked once if 5 games, I'm wondering if the strategy I chose to go for is a good one.
Mull every hand which is no adequate reaction. You can't complain about missing pieces and willingly start games with 1-2 cards less than your opponent. Keep the first playable hand and work for your win. If you bank on the deck rewarding greedy mulligans rather than required ones, you see the result
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
For instance, I lost my first game vs Death & Taxes mostly because of a mulligan to 5, after two hands without lands or reliable mana source. Then, I won with Goblins on turn 1. Third game, I mulligan to 6, get a turn 1 Ad Nauseam combo. Since he's on the play, Chalice @ 0. Little things like that. Was a mulligan to 5 a better idea? Against Affinity, pretty much the same. I get a good mulligan at 6, ready for a turn 2 win. She's on the play. She drops her hand on the floor and has a Cranial Plating equipped on a Vault Skirge. My turn, I play my Ponder, settle things for next turn. She swings for 7 Lifelink, I now have to do 27 damage with a 12 life Ad Nauseam, considering the fetch. It's DOABLE and there are other things to do like Burning Wish for hate, etc, but this week, I couldn't recover after my sweepers. Let's bring up this point now.
Grapeshot, Pyroclasm, and Massacre.
Well first of all, I usually side Grapeshot and Pyroclasm in, and leave Massacre outside. Today, it costed me games twice. Two times did I have a Burning Wish in hand, enough mana to grab a 2CMC sweeper, and couldn't because they were board in. Didn't have enough for Massacre and either you don't get enough juice for your incoming combo, or you're just too short on time to hardcast and then combo. I don't want to cut the Massacre out as it gave me a game vs D&T and Elves!, however I'm starting to think about having in main post board and leave either GS or Pyro in side up to be grabbed. The issue I would see with that is the highest curve for AdN, but how often do you win with AdN in these matchups? Isn't it better to Empty the Warrens after a sweep, when our opponents have no hands or creature? I might have been doing something wrong, but AdN was too slow to build after a sweep.
I have troubles getting you on sweeping against D&T, Goblins or Affinity. I suspect you board out the discard for the Sweepers and bounce? Boarding Masacre is wrong. Again: I have serious problems to identify the exact problem (especially with Affinity) without proper notes.[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
I'm sure this has been discussed before.
On a TL;DR note, let's make these few scenarios, and see what's the best solution
1) Keep a very fast hand with no protection to combo as fast as possible, either with Empty the Warrens or Ad Nauseam, and try to find CoV, Pyroclasm or the like if needed
2) Mulligan until you find a Chalice hate
3) Keep a defensive hand with Pyroclasm or Grapeshot against Thalia/Canonist/Revoker, then hope to build back quicker than them
4) Please, I need enlightenment.
Or is it too vague to be answered at all? :(
I answered that already. You play the pace the deck wields you. Do not force mulligans, board/shuffle properly and all issues should solve themselves
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hey Guys how's going?
Yesterday i played at our weekly league and i think more and more our meta gets wierd. Maybe thats normal i dont know.
Yesterday was:
2 Infect
1 Deathblade
2 Death & Taxes
3 Burn
1 Sylvan Plug
1 RUG Delver
1 Some Kind of Wierd homebrew
1 Reanimator
And something i forgot.
How do you play against such a meta. Just play the regular Sideboard and hope that the maindeck more or less gets the job done or would you play something special here.
And is this normal for a local meta to be like that.
Edit: my Sideboard atm is:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Massacre
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Void Snare
Greetings Christian
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Today i did 5-0 at the Legacy Side Event in the GP Buenos Aires.
Standard list, with this sb:
2 CoV
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 ToA
1 PiF
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens
Faced UW control, Team America, OmniTell, Maverick and DnT.
Really missed a tutoreable sweeper (or at least a bouncer) like massacre, pyroclasm, void snare or even grapeshot. Although pyroblast were good i think massacre is must have.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I'll need to clarify a few things before the tournament starts, in two hours. I'll try to be more specific next time and bring precise situations and actual plays instead of talking general issues, if this is what you prefer.
Thank you for your input on mulligans. I'll admit that I have a problem properly shuffling my deck. I'll try to focus on that tonight. I also appreciate when you say that I should, instead of focusing on a single plan, just take what my hand gives me and play around that. To build the game, as you said.
The problem I have with this is the following: if I'm not proactive, I don't have time to build the game. Chalice @ 0 if I don't go on the first turn while I'm on the play. Chalice @ 1 when I'm on draw and can't win first turn. This is the reason I'm trying to (and maybe wrongly, as you seem to think) make sure my first two turns are great. Especially since, just as you said, Lemnear, I shoud not board Decays against D&T. Let's put Magic and TES aside for a second, and talk about thought process and mutual exclusive, as I suspect you have experiences and thoughts I am missing.
It seems not boarding Decays forces you to go fast because (causality) you won't have enough to counter their Chalice. It seems like ''take the time to build your hand'' and ''do not bring the only thing that counters your main problem, online on turn 1'' are mutual exclusive to me.
What am I missing? I would understand if you said ''You should have in hands something good enough to build in your first turn'', or a ''You have the right tools, but you don't use them right'', however, I would not know what you refer to. Nor would I know how to use my tools properly, I guess. Care to teach me once again?
That being said, I read a few posts back and I have some confusion regarding a few posts.
Let's start with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
By playing an additional green source we can reliably side in Decay versus Wasteland decks, making it a much more versatile card. The second green source would likely have to be a Bayou as Tropical can't be searched for by Bloodstained Mire and we run only a basic Swamp, so we need our Mire. The alternative would be Taiga, which I'm not convinced is the greatest option.
I believe the new SB plan against D&T would be:
-3 Duress
-2 Ponder
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Void Snare
+1 Bayou
Is not having a second source of green the only reason we're not boarding Decays against D&T? If so, since it's the only deck with Wasteland in my meta, I'll trade the Swamp for a Tropical Island in a heart beat. I expect 3 decks running Chalice of the Void tonight. I also see no sweepers here, no Grapeshot, no Pyroclasm. The sideboard didn't have any, in fact. Lemnear, you approved my sideboard choices a few post ago, which was the following:
-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm
You even suggested less Ponder for Grapeshot and Void Snare, which were useful to me when I followed your advice. Now I might not understand properly, but you said in your last reply to me and you had ''troubles getting you on sweeping against D&T, Goblins or Affinity.''
How so? :frown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
So? You have Decay/CoV/sweepers for that case.
That's implying three things.
1) I'm boarding Decays
2) I can actually play my cards
3) I have them in hand
If I follow your advice of ''going with the flow'', If the deck gives me a good 7 cards hand, ready to go on turn 1 but missing a single piece. If my Brainstorm gives me 3 tutors when I'm missing a mana source, I don't have the counter hate, nor do I have what I'm missing. These situations happen a lot, changing of course what I'm looking for and what I find.
Now I understand that mulligans reduce my chances even more, I get that. But these situations happen too at 7 cards. Are you telling me it happens less often? I'll believe you, but it won't fix my problem except to a slight margin. Better than nothing, I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Boarding Masacre is wrong.
Yeah, I might see why, but it still doesn't solve the issue. I'll double check with you: you're telling me I should (or could, at the very least) board both Grapeshot and Pyroclasm, thus leaving nothing for BW at 2cmc, because I should ''go with the flow'' anyway and not aim that hard for a sweeper. If this is correct, my experiences have been awful with this strategy. With your confirmation tho, I'll still try it and take detailed note so I can see why it's not working for me: what card I played wrong, pure badluck, or a generic terrible move. I'll take your word and we'll analyze the data together, when it ends.
Quick sideboarding sheet for tonight, feel free to correct
Manaless Dredge: -2 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy, +3 Xantid
Blue Shell Manaless, Xantid more reliable than discard
Elves!: -1 Empty the Warren, -1 Ponder, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Grapeshot
Keep the Duress and trade for the NO/GSZ. Empty only if you know what you're doing. (I feel the Tendrils tonight... ;) )
The Gate/Pox: None
(or Empty the Warrens for Past in Flames, if too much hate for Goblins)
Affinity: -2 Duress, -3 Cabal Therapy, +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor
Bryant said +1 Chain, +1 Void Snare, but I guess it's purely because of the lack of a 2nd Chain. I would rather board the Chain and have the Void Snare to grab with a BW. That being said, why no sweepers? It seems like sweeping their whole hand turn 2 is the best way to win against them, no? An Empty the Warrens after a clean board seems so powerful! Quick explanation?
Death & Taxes: -2 Duress, -3 Ponder, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Pyroclasm, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare
I don't want to die to Chalice, but I'll believe. I've never put that much blind faith into someone on the Internet.
Merfolk: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder, -2 Dures, -1 Cabal Therapy +3 Xantid, +3 Abrupt Decay
I don't know how good this is, but if it's Bryant's choice... I don't see how it protects me from Cursecatcher, but well, you can't protect from everything. I guessed the discard for the Decays as stated on the website, as if I apply the same logic here I do for Manaless, Xantid is better than discard vs counterspells.
UR Delver: None
Skill match up I would guess?
Dark Maverick: -2 Duress, -3 Ponder, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Pyroclasm, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare
Same logic as vs D&T, but I doubt he will get Chalice, so it scares me less.
I'll make sure to check if I can get a reply before tonight. Once again, thanks a lot, wish me luck, I feel like winning tonight!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
LDX, don't forget that when an opponent has all the sick stuff, you usually just lose. If your opponent has 10 hate bears, full sets of Wastelands and Ports AND Chalice of the Void, things simply don't look too good for your Storm deck. The only way to beat such an amount of hate is to get lucky: win dice rolls, draw hands that win on turn 1-2 or luckily draw the stuff his hate cannot handle.
-
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
LDX, don't forget that when an opponent has all the sick stuff, you usually just lose. If your opponent has 10 hate bears, full sets of Wastelands and Ports AND Chalice of the Void, things simply don't look too good for your Storm deck. The only way to beat such an amount of hate is to get lucky: win dice rolls, draw hands that win on turn 1-2 or luckily draw the stuff his hate cannot handle.
Yeah, that seems right, but I'm quite sure a good TES player would prevent such a situation to happen in the first place, and that's what I'm trying to become. Tournament is over anyway, I'll try to get my notes and make maybe not a report, but a questioning thesis on my plays. Thanks for the support! :)
-
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
I'll need to clarify a few things before the tournament starts, in two hours. I'll try to be more specific next time and bring precise situations and actual plays instead of talking general issues, if this is what you prefer.
I'm not much online during weekends, so this did not work out lol. Yeah, I prefer clear situations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Thank you for your input on mulligans. I'll admit that I have a problem properly shuffling my deck. I'll try to focus on that tonight. I also appreciate when you say that I should, instead of focusing on a single plan, just take what my hand gives me and play around that. To build the game, as you said.
The problem I have with this is the following: if I'm not proactive, I don't have time to build the game. Chalice @ 0 if I don't go on the first turn while I'm on the play. Chalice @ 1 when I'm on draw and can't win first turn. This is the reason I'm trying to (and maybe wrongly, as you seem to think) make sure my first two turns are great. Especially since, just as you said, Lemnear, I shoud not board Decays against D&T. Let's put Magic and TES aside for a second, and talk about thought process and mutual exclusive, as I suspect you have experiences and thoughts I am missing.
You can't make "sure" your first turns are great. Trying to force it leads to losses caused by entering the games with less cards overall which means less mana, less business and less lands in your hand and slowing you down. The point about Decay is that you need three mana to remove Thalia and your mana is pressured by Wasteland in addition which often renders the Decays uncastable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
It seems not boarding Decays forces you to go fast because (causality) you won't have enough to counter their Chalice. It seems like ''take the time to build your hand'' and ''do not bring the only thing that counters your main problem, online on turn 1'' are mutual exclusive to me.
You need to realize that a D&T with Chalice is a really iffy matchup in any case. Personally I don't see a difference between Chalice @1, Thalia or Canonist coming down turn two. There is a fine line between trying to be fast and having backup (CoV), being completely reactive (CoV+Decays) or gambling for a better hand via mulligan which is often statistical nonsense unless your starting grip already features a virtual mulligan (several tutors for example)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Is not having a second source of green the only reason we're not boarding Decays against D&T? If so, since it's the only deck with Wasteland in my meta, I'll trade the Swamp for a Tropical Island in a heart beat. I expect 3 decks running Chalice of the Void tonight. I also see no sweepers here, no Grapeshot, no Pyroclasm. The sideboard didn't have any, in fact. Lemnear, you approved my sideboard choices a few post ago, which was the following:
-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm
You even suggested less Ponder for Grapeshot and Void Snare, which were useful to me when I followed your advice. Now I might not understand properly, but you said in your last reply to me and you had ''troubles getting you on sweeping against D&T, Goblins or Affinity.''
How so? :frown:
This is getting out of hands. We're talking about several different builds here mixed up for boarding. Decays, Grapeshots and Clasms all need 3 mana against Thalia/Wasteland which I hinted at before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
That's implying three things.
1) I'm boarding Decays
2) I can actually play my cards
3) I have them in hand
If I follow your advice of ''going with the flow'', If the deck gives me a good 7 cards hand, ready to go on turn 1 but missing a single piece. If my Brainstorm gives me 3 tutors when I'm missing a mana source, I don't have the counter hate, nor do I have what I'm missing. These situations happen a lot, changing of course what I'm looking for and what I find.
That's why we run the cantrips and understanding these is key. If you need mana AND a business spell for going off and you cast Ponder into RoF/Petal/Fetchland, you shuffle. You do this simply because the deck is 40% mana and you draw into mana more naturally than into Tutors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Now I understand that mulligans reduce my chances even more, I get that. But these situations happen too at 7 cards. Are you telling me it happens less often? I'll believe you, but it won't fix my problem except to a slight margin. Better than nothing, I guess.
Of course your options are better with 7 cards than with 6, but I admit I have a hard time to even get the point anymore. Is this still about boarding, gameplay postboard with several settings or a general problem of fixing hands?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Yeah, I might see why, but it still doesn't solve the issue. I'll double check with you: you're telling me I should (or could, at the very least) board both Grapeshot and Pyroclasm, thus leaving nothing for BW at 2cmc, because I should ''go with the flow'' anyway and not aim that hard for a sweeper. If this is correct, my experiences have been awful with this strategy. With your confirmation tho, I'll still try it and take detailed note so I can see why it's not working for me: what card I played wrong, pure badluck, or a generic terrible move. I'll take your word and we'll analyze the data together, when it ends.
I'm telling you that needing 3 IMS' for Decay/Clasm/Grape is a bitch against Thalia/Wasteland and causes more problems (less filtering, higher cmc for AN) than keeping the deck slick with Ponder+CoV postboard to fix certain possible issues (Chalice @ 1 aside). This just as a general hint, because I can't deliver tailor-made solutions for everyones MB and SB configuration, so of course it makes sense to board all the cheap removal you have for discard. We can analyze later if the notes are sufficient.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
One of my friends plays D&T so I've tested that matchup many, many, many times. Here's what I've learned:
I want a hand that can go off before my opponent can get to two mana. At two mana, bad things happen, like Thalia, and Chalice, etc. Empty the Warrens is a perfectly acceptable and safe play as soon as possible if you see T1 basic Plains in G1. In G2, this is still a fine play, but I need to watch out for Cataclysm, which really only gets boarded in because, well, it's better than StP against me. If you kill a D&T player in G1, watch out for it in G2 and don't forget to flashback Therapy to check for it.
If I can't get a hand that can go off that quickly, I'll settle for a hand that features Cabal Therapy, and maybe I can buy myself an extra turn or two with some discard action.
Abrupt Decay is hard to fire off, but I still board in a pair to fight Chalice of the Void, in addition to a CoV. I haven't figured out if I like Massacre as a wish target, or in the main, but getting access to it one way or another is extremely powerful in this matchup if you can get to it.
If my hand isn't that fast, or feature disruption, I'm probably going to ship it unless it happens to be a card away and I've got a Brainstorm or something.
The good news is that there's no pressure to play around countermagic-if you've got it, just go for it obviously, the tradeoff is there's an enormous amount of pressure to go off fast or be able to disrupt just enough to go off a turn later.
I tend to SB out 3-4 Ponders for 2 Abrupt Decay, CoV, and/or massacre, but I think that a better choice might be 2 CoV, 2 Abrupt Decay. There's not a lot of time to sculpt, especially if D&T is on the play. If D&T is on the play in G2, you pretty much only get one turn unless they kept a crap hand without a T2 play or you have CoV, which buys you one extra turn perhaps. Unless they set Chalice for 1, but usually, they like to play Chalice for 0 on T1 to keep you from going off before they can stick Thalia if they have it. Our biggest strength is our speed in this matchup IMO, and I always try to play to that advantage.
But yeah, as Lem pointed out, D&T featuring Chalice is an iffy matchup. Win the dice roll, and be faster, you're the unfair deck, act like it!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
If D&T gets out of hand locally, there is still the option to run Dread of Night
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Allright. First off, I got obliterated. Double Elimination tournament, went 0-2.
1-2 vs Elves!
1-2 vs Death & Taxes
The camera didn't work again, so I'm a bit pissed and disappointed not being able to write down where everything went. This is what I wanted too. I still took some notes, but before I write what I can, I would like to discuss about a few of your points to maybe explain my thought process in-game. I hope we can end this sideboard issue soon.
I'm also quite sure we can distinguish my losses due to me making mistakes or being bad in general, and this specific discussion regarding sideboard. Because two situations happen at the same time doesn't mean they're linked. Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The point about Decay is that you need three mana to remove Thalia and your mana is pressured by Wasteland in addition which often renders the Decays uncastable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Personally I don't see a difference between Chalice @1, Thalia or Canonist coming down turn two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Decays, Grapeshots and Clasms all need 3 mana against Thalia/Wasteland which I hinted at before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ebonclaw
Abrupt Decay is hard to fire off, but I still board in a pair to fight Chalice of the Void, in addition to a CoV. I haven't figured out if I like Massacre as a wish target, or in the main, but getting access to it one way or another is extremely powerful in this matchup if you can get to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ebonclaw
If D&T is on the play in G2, you pretty much only get one turn unless they kept a crap hand without a T2 play or you have CoV, which buys you one extra turn perhaps. Unless they set Chalice for 1, but usually, they like to play Chalice for 0 on T1 to keep you from going off before they can stick Thalia if they have it. Our biggest strength is our speed in this matchup IMO, and I always try to play to that advantage.
I think we strongly disagree on a single point: to me, Chalice of the Void is the main threat, and surpasses Thalia or Canonist or Revoker by a wide, wide margin. Else the strong (Chalice) vs soft (Hatebear) locks, the main difference is that Thalia, Canonist and Revoker all die to sweepers. Even when they're in play, there is a way to get rid of them. Please note that against D&T, I never thought of bringing Massacre in the main, my questionning was strickly against Affinity, where I always have to pay the full cost of Massacre.
Yes, it costs 3 mana, but first, they can only get that down by turn two, and I can clear it by turn 3. It's a world of difference in comparison to Chalice of the Void@1 with which I have no way to interact without Abupt Decay.
Even Chalice @0 doesn't give a game loss right away and can be played around, but only with a bounce effect, compared to Thalia or Canonist in play, as creatures can be bounced and killed with sweepers. Let alone the fact that the creatures come into play later, or at the very best, at the same turn of a Chalice@1.
And that's only Chalice@0. Chalice@1, turn 2 when they're on the play, I have no way to remove it without the Decays. You can tell me the effort is not worth it and that I should scoop at that point, that I should have won before anyway (which means two turns while on the play, ouch), but you can't say there's no difference between Chalice and Hatebears...
That being said, I understand that keeping more sweepers make us slower, and give D&T more time get the Chalice. Yet because sweepers exist, I feel much more confidant to work around Thalia or Canonist than going against a Chalice. I understand this is an iffy matchup. I also understand you guys are facing different metas and need some sideboard slots that I could free for more hate against some decks. And finally, I also understand that 3 mana is a lot when we're trying to go as fast as possible.
What I still can't grasp is, how is this any relevant if I can't go off before my turn 1 anyway. How is bringing a sweeper or a Decay against a Ponder bad, when a Ponder wouldn't let you win by T1? Also at best, G3, a Duress could get me a Chalice out T1. But that means nothing else than that, we're not any closer to winning. Without sweepers, it's almost (due to CoV and VS) a must to go T2 to avoid the Hatebears. The only moment I see Duress being more relevant than, let's say, Pyroclasm, is that after landing all your mana artifact on the play T1, he would have settled his Chalice @1 instead of 0.
Long story short, as iffy as it is, it still seems to me that it's a choice between a ''this is too hard to do, won't work'' vs ''this is just impossible''. I would rather have it hard than have a garanteed loss. In both plan you try to go as fast as possible anyway and none of the changes from my perspective to yours change that at any speed. I'm also skeptic, because you guys helped me so much already and seem so sure about your idea, while I can't understand how you can know everything about TES and not see/care about this flaw. It appears to me like a big, bright red button in the sky. I can't wait until we have an agreement on that plan.
***
Now regarding the tournament. I won both first game easily, turn 2 Ad Nauseam both games. Couldn't manage to win any side games. As I said, I'm saddened that I couldn't get enough notes. Next time, I'll bring my own camera, and I intend to play a few games on Cockatrice and save the replays so I can discuss about them with you, Lemnear.
Game 2 against Elves! was a suicidal race. On the play, I knew he wanted to go faster then me. I took the bate and kept a risky hand, having Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire and Bayou as lands, plus a Dark Ritual, a Gitaxian Probe, and a Pyroclasm in hand. Maybe a mulligan would have been a better choice. It's rather easy, I know it's hard for him to go by turn 2, so he'll just drop his Elves and I'll Pyroclasm the hell out of them. Since I had a lot of lands (too much for my taste too), I guess I could easily come back from that play to win the following turn, as I didn't need Rituals that much, so cantrips or business would be enough.
On turn 1, he Thoughtseize me. He takes away my Probe, so I guess he has something else in mind. I draw a Lotus Petal, sadly pass, thinking he doesn't have enough Elves in play to T2 Pyroclasm anyway. He prefers to play a Cabal Therapy on his second turn, naming Pyroclasm. I draw 2 other lands, he draws business, I have a Ruric Tar in my face by turn 4, he swings lethal at turn 5. Game didn't last long.
However, I had G3 against Elves! with a high-end play that I didn't see until the game was over, which funny enough, was very close to the hand Bryant posted on Facebook the day before. I had Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, LED and Ad Nauseam. I knew he was playing discard so I had to put down my artifacts down on first turn, as I was told to. So I tried to Brainstorm on first turn to make sure I could hide some more and play all my artifacts to go asap.
I found an other LED. I should have put back Probe + Ad Nauseam, play both LED first turn, wait until his turn, draw Probe on my T2, play it, sac both LEDs and play Ad Nauseam right on my turn 2. I didn't, I lost.
Now loses like that, I can live with, as I notice my mistakes easily and can correct them later.
Death & Taxes was much more difficult. After a quick turn 2 win first game, he starts on the play. My hand is the following:
Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Polluted Delta
Lotus Petal
Empty the Warren
Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Having a good mix of everything, I choose to keep this hand. Of course, he has a Chalice @ 0. I think I draw a Cabal Therapy, and not taking chances, I name Chalice of the Void again.
I see nothing that important. On his turn, he draws Thalia. I can't read what I wrote on that part, but it was surely full of hatred.
Again, G3 is a long, long war. I'm not sure, but my note says as opening hand:
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Pyroclasm
Ponder
I keep the hand, having 2 Burning Wish and a Pyroclasm, I feel confident in the sweepers. I play Probe, I see Chalice, Flickerwisp, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Plains. I don't don't what I draw, but then I play the Chrome Mox on a Burning Wish to avoid the @0 counter. It helps me reset the game with a Massacre, but he already had Jitte in play and he finds a creature sooner than I find a second blue land (he kept the Underground Sea I could draw with Port). Was a very, very long game. I remember 2 Chain of Vapor, a germ equipped with a Batterskull + a Jitte, etc etc. Again I feel the sweepers did best this game, but couldn't get rid of that Chalice which prevented the LEDs and Petals I drew.
Can't help anymore and I don't expect much thoughts with such a low amount of notes, but that problem itself will be fixed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
If D&T gets out of hand locally, there is still the option to run Dread of Night
I don't hate the idea, but it doesn't take Revoker, doesn't help vs Chalice, and does nothing with Affinity. The red splash helps vs both decks.
Talking about Affinity, no I didn't have to face it in the tournament, but my thoughts can be really easily explained. They play their whole hand on turn 1, and can't start attacking before turn 2. A single board wipe and I have a few free turns to build. I don't think the match up is more complex than that. Yes, I guess Chain of Vapor COULD be useful vs a few stuff, but this seems to be the ''fat'' I would cut in order to have a faster deck, not the other way around. Since the play seem that easy, I was pondering about boarding Massacre instead of Empty the Warren and leave a 2 mana sweeper in the side, to have an easier access/earlie access/manaless access to a wipe in the sideboard via Burning Wish. I sometimes had a Burning Wish, needed a wipe, but only had 4 mana. A Pyroclasm in the side would have won me the game, that's why I'm questionning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ebonclaw
One of my friends plays D&T so I've tested that matchup many, many, many times. Here's what I've learned:
I want a hand that can go off before my opponent can get to two mana.
Good for you, but to me, it seems I have to go before my opponent starts his first turn. Barely exaggerating :frown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ebonclaw
Abrupt Decay is hard to fire off, but I still board in a pair to fight Chalice of the Void, in addition to a CoV. I haven't figured out if I like Massacre as a wish target, or in the main, but getting access to it one way or another is extremely powerful in this matchup if you can get to it.
I'm fine with Massacre on the side. My questions would be the following: do you have more sweepers in your board, and would you use them if you had any?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ebonclaw
Our biggest strength is our speed in this matchup IMO, and I always try to play to that advantage.
But yeah, as Lem pointed out, D&T featuring Chalice is an iffy matchup. Win the dice roll, and be faster, you're the unfair deck, act like it!
I agree, but as far as I've seen, none of the sideboard changes affect in any way the speed of the deck. It's not like I'm trying to transform the deck in Miracles, I'm just thinking a sweeper wipes D&T except for Chalice, which should be Decay's job, and that boarding all of these hate for cards that won't help you go T1 anyway seem obvious to me. I appreciate your imput tho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
unless your starting grip already features a virtual mulligan (several tutors for example)
What else would be considered a virtual mulligan? I find all the hands with Ad Nauseam a bit squechy, and to a certain extend, I feel the same with Empty the Warren if I have a LED or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
That's why we run the cantrips and understanding these is key. If you need mana AND a business spell for going off and you cast Ponder into RoF/Petal/Fetchland, you shuffle. You do this simply because the deck is 40% mana and you draw into mana more naturally than into Tutors.
Tutors over mana. Got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I'm telling you that needing 3 IMS' for Decay/Clasm/Grape is a bitch against Thalia/Wasteland and causes more problems (less filtering, higher cmc for AN) than keeping the deck slick with Ponder+CoV postboard to fix certain possible issues (Chalice @ 1 aside). This just as a general hint, because I can't deliver tailor-made solutions for everyones MB and SB configuration, so of course it makes sense to board all the cheap removal you have for discard. We can analyze later if the notes are sufficient.
Well you know what, I think you've been a fine tailor so far. I'm also quite sure you understand that with such a sideboard, the deck might be thicker, but I think (still waiting to be proved wrong tho) it helped more than it costed me games, maybe not this week, but surely earlier. I still haven't boarded the Decays and still Chalice has been my doom. It feels like all I need would be a featured match TES vs D&T.
Hell, if I ever manage to win a tournament, I'll take the prize money and pay for some TES lessons.
Thanks again.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Good for you, but to me, it seems I have to go before my opponent starts his first turn. Barely exaggerating :frown:
Again, don't focus on these hands by D&T.
If they have the nuts and you don't, you lose. That's it.
You really need to test more and get a feel for what they usually do to you.
If what you describe is what people do all the time against you, I recommend you play the following:
Lands: 4 Wooded Foothills, 4 Arid Mesa, 4 Windswept Heath, 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau, 1 Savannah, 1 Mountain, 1 Forest, 1 Plains /20
Creatures: 4 Wild Nacatl, 3 Kird Ape, 3 Loam Lion, 4 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Qasali Pridemage, 2 Knight of the Reliquary /24
Spells: 4 Lightning Bolt, 3 Chain Lightning, 3 Forked Bolt, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Sylvan Library /16
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
LXD if there is so much hate in you meta its hard to play the deck and not get frustrated. I had the same problem with burnplayers bringing in Leyline of Sanctity against me.
I dont know if youre in the Facebook Group but one time i asked on the opinion about Meltdown in the Sideboard to deal with Chalice. Here i think for you Meltdown would be a good Choice since its a 2 Mana hate against chalice and a 3 Mana Akromas Vengance against Affinity.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Honestly, the real frustration comes from the following. I know I'm not a good TES player, or a good MTG player in general. I want to improve as a player. Yet, despite that, I've been the target among my playgroup, all my opponents are so afraid of TES because I won a few games that they build their decks around mine. It's easier to learn to swim in a pool than in the lake full of water mines... I just don't survive long enough to learn as much as I would like in the games I play. Not winning isn't the issue.
And yeah, if my plan was to win the league by the end of summer, at this point, I would switch deck, but I would rather just min/maxing my chances to play TES and getting ready for a larger meta, one day.
Thanks for your support tho!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Honestly, the real frustration comes from the following. I know I'm not a good TES player, or a good MTG player in general. I want to improve as a player. Yet, despite that, I've been the target among my playgroup, all my opponents are so afraid of TES because I won a few games that they build their decks around mine. It's easier to learn to swim in a pool than in the lake full of water mines... I just don't survive long enough to learn as much as I would like in the games I play. Not winning isn't the issue.
And yeah, if my plan was to win the league by the end of summer, at this point, I would switch deck, but I would rather just min/maxing my chances to play TES and getting ready for a larger meta, one day.
Thanks for your support tho!
It can be tough in a small play group. It's never going to be good.
If you play Zoo, you are the boring dude turning guys sideways.
If you play Miracles/Landstill you are the grinder.
If you play combo, you are the uninteractive guy.
If you play Delver variants, you are a netdecker.
I would like to suggest Magic Work Station and ask people here to playtest.
This expands your play group. MWS is free and if you ask people here, you know they will probably be competitive enough.
Staying stuck in your small play group is clearly holding you back right now, and it would be a shame if you were to let that drive you away from playing one of the coolest decks in the meta.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
If you're having trouble with D&T then you can try something like Thoughtseize instead of Duress or Death's Mark instead of Chain of Vapour, one of the reasons I hate Chain of Vapour is that it exposes you to Wasteland so removal that's more congruent to your basic land may improve the match up overall.
Disfigure isn't a Burning Wish target, but in the case of Eidolon it gives you an answer and it's more flexible against Thalia in terms of being able to remove her during their turn.
As far as the spoiled tutor is concerned, it's clearly a choice to replace the Infernal Tutor in the SB, but do we want 4 Infernal Tutor in the MD when most of our match ups are vs Island.dec? Because one of the things that the spoiled tutor does not do well vs Infernal Tutor is SB in vs aggro and once we've SBed out Infernal Tutor vs control what's the utility of the spoiled tutor then?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
I think we strongly disagree on a single point: to me, Chalice of the Void is the main threat, and surpasses Thalia or Canonist or Revoker by a wide, wide margin. Else the strong (Chalice) vs soft (Hatebear) locks, the main difference is that Thalia, Canonist and Revoker all die to sweepers. Even when they're in play, there is a way to get rid of them. Please note that against D&T, I never thought of bringing Massacre in the main, my questionning was strickly against Affinity, where I always have to pay the full cost of Massacre.
Yes, it costs 3 mana, but first, they can only get that down by turn two, and I can clear it by turn 3. It's a world of difference in comparison to Chalice of the Void@1 with which I have no way to interact without Abupt Decay.
Even Chalice @0 doesn't give a game loss right away and can be played around, but only with a bounce effect, compared to Thalia or Canonist in play, as creatures can be bounced and killed with sweepers. Let alone the fact that the creatures come into play later, or at the very best, at the same turn of a Chalice@1.
And that's only Chalice@0. Chalice@1, turn 2 when they're on the play, I have no way to remove it without the Decays. You can tell me the effort is not worth it and that I should scoop at that point, that I should have won before anyway (which means two turns while on the play, ouch), but you can't say there's no difference between Chalice and Hatebears...
-snip-
Long story short, as iffy as it is, it still seems to me that it's a choice between a ''this is too hard to do, won't work'' vs ''this is just impossible''. I would rather have it hard than have a garanteed loss. In both plan you try to go as fast as possible anyway and none of the changes from my perspective to yours change that at any speed. I'm also skeptic, because you guys helped me so much already and seem so sure about your idea, while I can't understand how you can know everything about TES and not see/care about this flaw. It appears to me like a big, bright red button in the sky. I can't wait until we have an agreement on that plan.
Lets make this one much simpler then: Over the last reports I got the idea that there is no Miracles or Blade.dec at all in your metagame. Is that correct? If it's the case and your metagame is so focussed on spamming you with artifacts (also Affinity) and hatebears, you can outsmart the hate by cutting Decays & Grapeshot & Clasm and replacing them with Shattering Spree & Dread of Night. Sprees replicate gets around Chalice @ 1 and hammers Affinity hard (also: Jitte, Batterskull, Vial, Revoker, etc.) with Rite of Flame already in the deck while Dread presents a lasting solution to Thalia and friends.
get me right: there is a lot of space to maneuver around hate with TES' standard configuration, but if your metagame is so narrow and trying to tackle you from a single angle, then please use the decks and sideboards flexibility and make adjustments. I don't see stuff like D&T with MB Chalice, so I don't plan for that nor I'm arguing for rare circumstances but for the common, blue matchups, but whenever your local metagame shifts to a hatedeck parade, there is no reason to stick to the generic blue metagame sideboard we suggest for bigger anonymus tournaments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Now regarding the tournament. I won both first game easily, turn 2 Ad Nauseam both games. Couldn't manage to win any side games. As I said, I'm saddened that I couldn't get enough notes. Next time, I'll bring my own camera, and I intend to play a few games on Cockatrice and save the replays so I can discuss about them with you, Lemnear.
do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Game 2 against Elves! was a suicidal race. On the play, I knew he wanted to go faster then me. I took the bate and kept a risky hand, having Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire and Bayou as lands, plus a Dark Ritual, a Gitaxian Probe, and a Pyroclasm in hand. Maybe a mulligan would have been a better choice. It's rather easy, I know it's hard for him to go by turn 2, so he'll just drop his Elves and I'll Pyroclasm the hell out of them. Since I had a lot of lands (too much for my taste too), I guess I could easily come back from that play to win the following turn, as I didn't need Rituals that much, so cantrips or business would be enough.
On turn 1, he Thoughtseize me. He takes away my Probe, so I guess he has something else in mind. I draw a Lotus Petal, sadly pass, thinking he doesn't have enough Elves in play to T2 Pyroclasm anyway. He prefers to play a Cabal Therapy on his second turn, naming Pyroclasm. I draw 2 other lands, he draws business, I have a Ruric Tar in my face by turn 4, he swings lethal at turn 5. Game didn't last long.
I would have played Delta into Sea hardcasting Probe, if you keep the hand, which is questionable as you can't get naturally hellbent by turn 4 and EtW sucks anyways. The deck has more or less a 40% chance to topdeck mana anyways, so it was pretty likely that this hand can be raced even if you would have been able to cast the Clasm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
However, I had G3 against Elves! with a high-end play that I didn't see until the game was over, which funny enough, was very close to the hand Bryant posted on Facebook the day before. I had Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, LED and Ad Nauseam. I knew he was playing discard so I had to put down my artifacts down on first turn, as I was told to. So I tried to Brainstorm on first turn to make sure I could hide some more and play all my artifacts to go asap.
I found an other LED. I should have put back Probe + Ad Nauseam, play both LED first turn, wait until his turn, draw Probe on my T2, play it, sac both LEDs and play Ad Nauseam right on my turn 2. I didn't, I lost.
Now loses like that, I can live with, as I notice my mistakes easily and can correct them later.
yep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Death & Taxes was much more difficult. After a quick turn 2 win first game, he starts on the play. My hand is the following:
Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Polluted Delta
Lotus Petal
Empty the Warren
Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Having a good mix of everything, I choose to keep this hand. Of course, he has a Chalice @ 0. I think I draw a Cabal Therapy, and not taking chances, I name Chalice of the Void again.
I see nothing that important. On his turn, he draws Thalia. I can't read what I wrote on that part, but it was surely full of hatred.
Again, G3 is a long, long war. I'm not sure, but my note says as opening hand:
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Pyroclasm
Ponder
I keep the hand, having 2 Burning Wish and a Pyroclasm, I feel confident in the sweepers. I play Probe, I see Chalice, Flickerwisp, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Plains. I don't don't what I draw, but then I play the Chrome Mox on a Burning Wish to avoid the @0 counter. It helps me reset the game with a Massacre, but he already had Jitte in play and he finds a creature sooner than I find a second blue land (he kept the Underground Sea I could draw with Port). Was a very, very long game. I remember 2 Chain of Vapor, a germ equipped with a Batterskull + a Jitte, etc etc. Again I feel the sweepers did best this game, but couldn't get rid of that Chalice which prevented the LEDs and Petals I drew.
Can't help anymore and I don't expect much thoughts with such a low amount of notes, but that problem itself will be fixed.
I think the play with this hand would have been Swamp, Mox (Wish), Wish for either Massacre or EtW and then slowroll with your Clasm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
I don't hate the idea, but it doesn't take Revoker, doesn't help vs Chalice, and does nothing with Affinity. The red splash helps vs both decks.
Shattering Spree instead of Decays, like mentioned before
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Talking about Affinity, no I didn't have to face it in the tournament, but my thoughts can be really easily explained. They play their whole hand on turn 1, and can't start attacking before turn 2. A single board wipe and I have a few free turns to build. I don't think the match up is more complex than that. Yes, I guess Chain of Vapor COULD be useful vs a few stuff, but this seems to be the ''fat'' I would cut in order to have a faster deck, not the other way around. Since the play seem that easy, I was pondering about boarding Massacre instead of Empty the Warren and leave a 2 mana sweeper in the side, to have an easier access/earlie access/manaless access to a wipe in the sideboard via Burning Wish. I sometimes had a Burning Wish, needed a wipe, but only had 4 mana. A Pyroclasm in the side would have won me the game, that's why I'm questionning.
see above. Adjust the SB to your local metagame. There is no reason to stuck to the generic SB for your local tournaments if linear hate takes over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
What else would be considered a virtual mulligan? I find all the hands with Ad Nauseam a bit squechy, and to a certain extend, I feel the same with Empty the Warren if I have a LED or something.
Multiple tutors, Lands/Cantrips you discard to LED anyways, Moxen, EtW/AN in hand with LED, etc. if you have LED + AN in hand you need a Brainstorm to set them up or to get rid of LEDs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Tutors over mana. Got it.
good
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Well you know what, I think you've been a fine tailor so far. I'm also quite sure you understand that with such a sideboard, the deck might be thicker, but I think (still waiting to be proved wrong tho) it helped more than it costed me games, maybe not this week, but surely earlier. I still haven't boarded the Decays and still Chalice has been my doom. It feels like all I need would be a featured match TES vs D&T.
Hell, if I ever manage to win a tournament, I'll take the prize money and pay for some TES lessons.
Thanks again.
Didn't you 4-0 one? :wink:
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElDorte
LXD if there is so much hate in you meta its hard to play the deck and not get frustrated. I had the same problem with burnplayers bringing in Leyline of Sanctity against me.
I dont know if youre in the Facebook Group but one time i asked on the opinion about Meltdown in the Sideboard to deal with Chalice. Here i think for you Meltdown would be a good Choice since its a 2 Mana hate against chalice and a 3 Mana Akromas Vengance against Affinity.
The tricky part is that affinity runs threats which cost more than 2cmc like Frogmite and Etched Champion where Meltdown gets really costy. It gets even worse if we talk about Batterskull, Sword of X & Y, Trinisphere, Thorn of Amethyst etc.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Thank you very much for everything.
There is indeed no Miracles or Stoneblade in my meta, those decks belonging to me and thus not played as long as I stick with TES. I could always give one for a night to someone else, but I guess I would know the matchup a bit better than them.
I appreciate the help, really. I guess I wasn't playing a fair game in the first place while I tried to stick with generic cards while they were focusing on me. Weapons weren't equals.
Maybe was it unfair from me to ask how to play a deck in such a specific meta. If it was too harsh from me, please accept this apologize. I guess I just tried to squeeze as much power as I could from a sideboard I should have changed anyway, but that takes us a few steps back, which I didn't bother to consider. I'm glad you could see how the situation was impossible with what I had and provided solutions.
We're playing for fun tonight. I might tweak a few things just to TES the water (haha. ha.). Now that this is settled, I'll have some free time to go in and actually play on Cockatrice. See you in a few days, and again, thanks everyone.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Just a few hours to go before I leave for the GP and none of the 17 Orders I made within the last 3 weeks arrived so far thanks to the postal delivery Strike in Germany. No green Duals for me, no cards I wanted to get signed for me or others (sorry Bryant), no finished Main or sideboard I had planned to play. This is going to be embarassing and I already have lost the interrest in the Trip, if I have to spend my Friday for getting the missing cards instead of Grinding the Trials for Byes. Guess that leaves me with a lot of time for chatter, coaching and stuff like that. I will give updates and Spam pics all weekend on Twitter (@ValeLemnear) and via Facebook. Come over if you spot me :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Just a few hours to go before I leave for the GP and none of the 17 Orders I made within the last 3 weeks arrived so far thanks to the postal delivery Strike in Germany. No green Duals for me, no cards I wanted to get signed for me or others (sorry Bryant), no finished Main or sideboard I had planned to play. This is going to be embarassing and I already have lost the interrest in the Trip, if I have to spend my Friday for getting the missing cards instead of Grinding the Trials for Byes. Guess that leaves me with a lot of time for chatter, coaching and stuff like that. I will give updates and Spam pics all weekend on Twitter (@ValeLemnear) and via Facebook. Come over if you spot me :)
Oh, so that means you have some free time to write that rap in the Elves! section..? :tongue:
I hope you get your build together for the main event. Good luck!
