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Some opening hands from Liam's SCG Vegas deck (within a card or two) for discussion:
1. Tendrils of Agony, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Thoughtseize, Ponder, Polluted Delta.
2. Duress, Duress, Swamp, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm.
3. Duress, Badlands, Lion's Eye Diamond, Scalding Tarn, Rite of Flame, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish.
1 seems kind of sketchy to me. 2 is bad but gets a lot better if it finds a land. 3 seems good.
Did he know against what he was up to? Was he on the play or on the draw?
Keeping hand 1 pretty much depends on this information.
2 seems to be good. Lots of disruption and finding a blue mana source shouldn't be an issue.
3 is a nobrainer.
Well, that's what I think at least :)
I played ANT to a pretty respectable 6-2-1 finish in SCG St. Louis last weekend with a UBr build. I had done quite a bit of playtesting with a UBw and UBrg, and basically I had just decided Xantid Swarm sucks, and past in flames is too good not to play.
The interesting parts of my list:
3 gitaxian
0 preordain
3 cabal therapy
4 duress
2 grim tutor
0 burning wish
1 past in flames
0 igg
1 Volcanic and 1 badlands main
SB
2 empty the Warrens
4 thoughseize
4 bob
5 bounce/kill
At least for a scg event, cutting grim was not an option, as I expected spell snare all over the place.
For people playing Xantid swarm still, I'd recommend just trying the all discard route. Xantid is fine against merfolk, but that matchup isn't bad enough to warrant 4 sb slots, and every other deck leaves in removal against you.
I was a huge fan of having 11 discard against the tempo thresh decks-basically my game plan against them is all in on ETW, so I aggressively take their threats early game and just wait until they're out of stifles to make a few goblins.
My win and in to top 8 was against reanimator...which I had essentially decided took up too much sb space to make a positive match, so I hoped to not get paired with it
Congrats on the finish. How did bob's work out when everybody left in removal? And in which match-ups did you board them in?
(yes I'm new to the deck)
Leave it out in any matchup where they're running lightning bolt. Those decks don't need their mana for counterspells, so playing a 2 mana spell that just eats a bolt is terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
It's fine against BUG, as there is only so much removal they can afford to leave in, and almost all of it costs 2 (and you'd rather they spend their 2 mana killing Bob than Hymning you). Also, it's very strong in the mirror (they can't kill it).
Against U/W stoneblade, it's about 50/50. Just watch to see how many cards they board out against you. If it's more than about 5, you can assume they're siding out StP and Bob is fine to bring in. If they see a Bob in G2, board him out for more discard spells if you see them reach for their sideboard.
Hi all.
I was an ANT player until the Mystical ban and then I decided to change decks as couldn't make it work. Some time ago I came back with a budget version, so no Grim Tutors for me and I use 1 Personal Tutor although I'm sure it's not the same.
Anyway, this post is refering to the Side. I've also played Belcher and I've enjoyed Xantid Swarm as much as possible, but in this deck it didn't fit much. I rememebr when I played ANT that BoB was not as good as I expected, so I faced a 7 round tournament with Ancestral Visions + Extirpate.
My typical side Vs Blue decks was:
-4 gitaxian Probe
-1 Preordain (only 1 main)
-2 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy
+4 Ancestral Visons
+3 Extirpate
+1 Empty the Warrens (+1 main)
I won Vs:
- Canadian
- Fate Stalker
- Punishing Maverick
- Merfolks
I lost Vs:
- Maverick
- UW CounterTop Blade
- Canadian
I had several missplays all day, as the Maverick and Countertop pairings were lost to that.
What I want to say is that Ancestral Visions were good all day, giving me cards when I played them, as I'll hardly ever combo out before Turn 4 Vs Blue decks, this way I may have +3 cards or +2 spells on the crucial turn, and I have a plan to rip his hand in advance. Also, Blue Decks don't tend to put much preassure early on, so there's always more time to combo out. About Extirpate, it was a good way to see their hand without them being able to avoid this. Also, after a discard or a counter to something early on (they may do it to slow you down, you can pretend you have no more lands, for example) you can get rid of all the counters of the same type so making it harder for them to counter you later on. For me, this fact combines nicely with Ancestral Visions, and gives and edge to the 2nd game.
What's your oppinion this side as a pack? and about the pieces by their own?
against some decks with discard, I prefer dark confidant to AV. It can beat and draw more cards if they board out the removal
I'd agree on this. 80% of the time people board out their removal knowing that they're useless in the match-up till its too late and you drop BOB. Feeding you more gas and beating face.Quote:
GoblinZ
against some decks with discard, I prefer dark confidant to AV. It can beat and draw more cards if they board out the removal
I've found myself winning matches on the back of BOB and pulling out multiple tendrils since you get so much gas if he's left untouched.
This is only true against poor players. Good players know about Dark Confidant, and Xantid Swarm, and so will tend to leave some removal in. Both are still valid sideboard choices, but don't get caught up in the idea that you've got some sort of technology anyone worth their salt hasn't heard of.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngel
Visions is an interesting idea, I'll have to try it out. Seems significantly worse in the mirror and the mono black or Bg decks, as those games drawn to always go to late game topdeck wars, where Bob is king. Also, Bob makes the Merfolk match hard to lose, as they can't afford to leave in removal.
Also, you should not be boarding in extirpate against decks that don't actively use their graveyard. Leave the ponders and therapy in. If you really think seeing their hand is that important, put two probes in over ponders (if they counter probe, you're probably winning anyway, because they suck).
Also, don't board like that for all blue decks -etw is usually too allow against the blue decks that play threats (blue zoo, merfolk, etc)
We' ve been thinking on Ancestral Visions (and also wheel of fate, spell pierce and dark confidant) as the main ways to deal with the BUG problem (we finally decided to play Pierce for being the more generalistic and the answer that covers the widest range of matches), though all of them are quite narrow, being Visions the strongest, but it has the problem that not drawing them in the very first draws (opening or first), makes it quite useless. BUt it is for sure an interesting option in a non-wish deck.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
Maybe you're right and ETW is not that good Vs Merfolks or Blue Zoo, but being able to cast some goblins out of nowhere and put them in a clock is not that bad either. Maybe keep one in anyway and keep some more manipulators would be better
I kinda disagree with the non-extirpate route for Blue decks. It helps a lot in the first turns. Maybe I play it strange but I don't combo out if I haven't seen the hand or if I still can chose not to, so after a discard, removing counters and peeking at what they still have is a saver path to me, maybe too safe after all. But you know that, with combo, if you fail once probably won't be able to fail twice as you may be already out. Maybe 3 is too much, that may be right, and -1 ETW and -1 Extirpate +2 Ponder/Probe could have been better. Maybe I was too agressive on that and you may be right, but I'd still keep some in.
I definitely agree you shouldn't combo out before you've seen their hand - but siding in a card that does nothing except for show you their hand is not good (it also deals with cards you've already dealt with and on a rare occasion snags a card). You're boarding out a bunch of cards that show you their hand without putting you down a card to do it - just keep them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMLL
The reason I suggest keeping in ponder against slow blue (u/w or u/b/g, some builds of u/r/g) because typically your game plan should be to cast cantrips or grim tutors until you find a threat, so counterspells that aren't Flusterstorm, MBtrap, or Stifle don't matter as much. But, if you want to see their hand, gitaxian seems fine. Extirpate, however, just doesn't do anything other than reduce their chances of drawing a 3-of from 5% to 0% (just pulling numbers out of my ass, the point is that its bad) and put you down a card (which is bad in many matches, but against team America in particular is miserable).
Officially off of Chant now. Too many people moving back to Spell Pierce.
BTW, Empty is actually the stone cold nuts right now. Currently taking a break from Storming people as I don't have real events, but will likely work on breaking the tempo matchup soon.
Drawing a Chant against Maverick is miserable :/Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
That basic plains made me sad.
I think having a basic plains in the deck is bad since you only ever needed the white for the combo turn for chants. drawing it naturally was pretty bad. but a scrubland or tundra in its place may be reasonable since they both do other things( rituals, cantrips)Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
The basic plains is useful versus a combination of stifle and wasteland, allowing you to fetch it T1 with a "made hand." It also makes it less risky to try to use an excess chant during your opponent's upkeep hoping to cast your in-hand ad-naus during their turn. These are marginal situations but they do arise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grigory
except its an absolute nightmare to have in your opener. i just think its bad since it only casts 4 cards in the deck by itself. also it just doesn't do anything. i just think its awful and miserable I honestly do not care that much about wasteland anymore since it is just 4 cards in my opponents deck and is easy enough to play around by holding your fetches and/or beating it anyway(a lesson learned from TES)
Ari can you share your list from the SCG Invitational?
A brief list of the matchups you played would be interesting as well.
so, I'm thinking about getting Grim Tutor. Should I get 1 or 2?