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You don't need Glimpse to play Emrakul. Also, taxing effects. My meta has more than 1 MUD deck sometimes. Without Priest or Archdruid, Lodestone Golem = loss. With them, I Glimpse combo'd through Lodestone Golem, didn't even bother killing it, and played Emrakul. Emrakul also doesn't care if all your elves are tapped when you play him. Hoof is useless in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Cloudstone Curio, Eternal Witness, Primal Command anyone??Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Modern?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
I fear it's too slow, and there's no reason to make elves even slower with decks like Storm, TinFins, and even SnT capable of being a turn (or two with storm, tin-fins) faster.
Not sure why people aren't running at least 1 copy of Beck//Call. I really like it as additional glimpses, aka must-counter spells. If you're playing 4 cradles, as you should, the extra mana becomes irrelevant and most of the time they're going to counter your first NO/Glimpse-effect, meangin you'll have more lands in play (or mana sources) by the time you try again. That has been my experience, at least. I have 4glimpse, 2beck, 2 NO (cut 1 as I'm down to just 1 target in the 1x Hoof).
Utilizing Beck also has let me cut Regal Force from the deck as uneccessary. My creature count is at 29. 16 Lands (17 if you include arbor, but I put within creature count).
Sarcasm actually :) though it used to be a thing in Legacy back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolutflipz
Beck I like, but I fear it is an all in approach to the deck. You're going for broke and if you do not have the right build counters will rip you apart. But this is a build I like and come tax return time, it is one I feel I will be running.
I am interested to know what builds people come up with. I am going to play around today on Cockatrice with it but I feel with DRS, Birchlore and some Dual lands we might be able to fire this off on a G/B with a U and W splash. I would take Ruric Thar out of the deck to cut out red totally.
I am trying to think about what blue adds to the deck as well as sideboard options but the deck is tuned very well already. My view though is Beck builds will have to be tuned differently, for one I think Birchlore is going to be of far more value in a Beck build and DRS will be an auto include. Summoner's Pact too I think is of greater value in this build than it is in the normal one. Now I am just thinking out loud. Can anyone shoot me some idea's?
Few thoughts about Beck//Call in Elves had Matt Nass in this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ght-beck-call/
No, you don't need glimpse with Priest or Archdruid to play Emrakul but as mentioned, both Elves require you to Pass the turn opening you up for global removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by th3 w1z4rd
The biggest concern vs. MUD is chalice of the Void and both elven concepts suffer from it. I have no clue why you think a Golem-taxed Archdruid (costing 4) in a deck with a very limited number of lands is a gamebreaker. You can still NO off a Cradle or 1/1 Elves for Hoof turn 2/3 and stomp the MUD player with it in 2-3 swings. If they block the 2nd Hoof attack and sacrifice their Golem by blocking you can still follow up with Glimpse or another NO (2nd Hoof 4 example) and run away with the game.
In short: a 3cc creature makes no significant impact against Lodestone Golem afaik
I can't follow the logic behind cutting NO -> Regal as a draw engine and only Running 3 NO from the start for that interaction, just to add a off-Color solution to the deckQuote:
Originally Posted by Tangente
The NO-less version is pretty much all-in on Glimpse. That's why I prefer having Natural Order and Craterhoof Behemoth.
People say you don't have to Glimpse first to play Emrakul because Priests will easily generate 15 mana. True. But that doesn't put Emrakul into your hand in the first place. Craterhoof however is a 5- or even 6-of AND turable with GSZ. Emrakul however has to be drawn naturally. You can get there with Visionary+Symbiote but at that point you would have easily won with NO way earlier.
Also, don't underestimate the speed NO Behemoth brings to the deck. It requires minimal ressources to set up a kill, which is huge.
But as I said earlier, Emrakul vs NO is just a proxy discussion. What we are actually talking about here is the use of Priest+Archdruid. To me, I much more prefer the speed and resilience of not having them.
The Problem is the pure dimension the proxy discussion has reached between a green multi-combo deck feat. Nettle/Heritage mana-engine, Symbiote/Visionary draw-engine, 1cc-creatures chaining Glimpse into a Super-Ancestral, Quirion/Symbiote/DRS machine-gun and the Cradle/NO/GSZ/Hoof Ultra-redundant kill ... and a pass-the-turn Timmy.dec which plans to tap 1-2 Archdruids/Priests to put the games No.1 Fatty from hand into play.
The only reason both decks are somehow discussed in the same thread is due to a common creature type. Lol
Yup. I feel the latter style of deck reached an admittedly elegant pinnacle in 2011 with David Vo's list from SCG Atlanta. Elves has come a long way since then, with many tournament showings to prove it. To advocate a return to a mono-green 2011 list is akin to urging RUG players to drop Delver, or Reanimators to do away with Griselbrand. That we in this thread must simultaneously endure barrages of insults is a real shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Daniel, we await salvation by your hand.
Who here runs Archdruids and Priests? I am interested to see the list. I myself have a single Archdruid in the sideboard along with a Elvish Champion for dealing with E Plage. Thinking of pulling Druid out for another Champion for BUG and GU Delver matchups.
OMG. Lost all my text. I hate life. CTRL+( instead of Shift+( just ruined my day.
Okay. I'll get to the point.
Primer is coming. Been busy. Real life sucks. Expect it Sunday
Discussion lately has been good. Lots of good points have been brought up. I don't think an updated primer will fix the root problem here which is...
Elves is still seen as "starter" deck for newer players to just pick up and bring to a tournament and "compete" with, but that is no longer the case. Carsten Kotter has a new article up (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...tro-Decks.html) where he discusses some really easy to pick-up-and-play decks (regardless of budget) for people looking to get into Legacy. Notice how Elves is not on that list. That is because it is actually somewhat difficult to play. The deck can be very confusing for newer players and even experience ones. The interactions are many and that creates lots of opportunities to make game-losing mistakes in a format that is already cutthroat and unforgiving. Regardless, newer players continue to flock to it because, for the most part, it is cheaper to build than all the crazy blue decks and people love Elves.
So we have newer players, perhaps tournament neophytes, and hardcore tournament grinders who just want to tune the beast into the tightest 75 possible, all hanging out in the same thread talking about almost all the same cards. And that creates some tension as far as what people are trying to accomplish and the discussions each group is trying to have. LOL and then we have Koby who loves him some Emrakul. And that's okay too!
I am not saying one is more legitimate than the other or that the problem can be solved by doing X or Y. But, from my perspective, this is what is creating the majority of the disharmony here. But perhaps that's the case for other deck threads too? I dunno. I don't really read other threads. And this issue that I am chalking up to New Player Vs Tournament Grinder might just be a "People are different, you bastard!" issue. And that's perfectly okay. Um, I may have gotten distracted somewhere. I dunno how this turned into a life talk. You kids are nice. Do your homework and try real hard and everything will be okay for you.
--
In other news, some of the discussion has convinced me to try a second Birchlore Ranger. I'll be cutting Priest of Titania for him (going to zero!) and trying that out at a big tournament on Saturday. We'll see how it goes.
I've never seen more hype around Chalice of the Void than right now. I expected it in STL (played it three times in nine rounds) and I would expect it to rise even more in popularity going forward. Please, guys, heed this warning: play Viridian Shaman!Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Zealot is good too. I see no reason you cannot have both Rangers and Art hate. I have 2 Rangers and a Zealot main deck. Can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Edit, Reason for my choice on Zealot is that I like the option of playing the card early when the other players counters have all been used and later firing him off against whatever Stoneforge has fetched. Shaman is a sledgehammer, effective but loud, fast and must work now. Zealot is more of a precision instrument that you have sit in wait but risk someone else having an answer for. I am more than willing to admit that against Void Sharman is the better tool, my targets locally are Countertop and Stoneblade decks.
Shaman is the preferred MD hate because 1) it doesn't die to an E.Plague and 2) you can bounce it with Wirewood Symbiote to rebuy its effect. But yes, I'll keep that in mind going into Saturday. Now I gotta cut something to find room...
Exactly. The fact Shaman stays in play after it has done its business is a big deal. It can be picked up with Symbiote, like danyul said, and it can tap for mana with Heritage later on.
It's for that same reason, I may want to try Harmonic Sliver over Pridemage in the sideboard. I didn't really use Pridemage to any meaningful degree at my last tournament, but it could be a relevant swap.
True story.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
I've recently made this shift, partly because it works better against S&T decks and forces the Omni decks to have the Cunning Wish in order to be able to win. Aside from that, it's functionally equivalent to Pridemage for the purpose of destroying permanents. Note that it's weaker against Umezawa's Jitte since the effect is Sorcery speed compared to QPM's instant activation.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Oh, before I forget. Does anyone have any idea's for beating UR Delver? I played against it yesterday about 20 times in a row. It was a brutal match up. If anyone has advice I would like it. My go to was to try and pull out NO/Pro as fast as I could after a while. It was the only thing I had that worked. Even then there was counters to deal with.
I'm guessing that the UR delver matchup is more defined by Delver + countermagic and some spot removal moreso than just burning you out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
If that's the case, NO/Pro is unlikely to help here, as even Progenitus is too slow against burn, and exposing Natural Order against their Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will pushes you more into losing board presence. I recommend you focus on beatdown/aggro and attempting to put a Scavenging Ooze on the field. Once he's in, you can start to regain life and make a big threat.
Well he had Lightning bolts and chain lightnings, as far as in know they where all his burn outside of Grim. Thing is, I bought most of the elf deck I own from him so he knows it better than most. He very very rarely went at me with burn, preferring to burn out all my creatures that may have at any time been a threat and killing me with beat down. I did board in Ooze but once he knew that he would gun for it. Also not having any real mana Elves and losing Gaea to wasteland, it just felt like an uphill fight every time.