Miracle Control

After going 3-6 in GP DC I think its time to ask for some help with this deck

R1: 2-1 Elves (Izzet Staticaster blows him out in G2 and G3 especially when it hits double dryad arbor)
R2: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R3: Jund (land screw g3)
R4: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R5: Esper Death-Blade (tight play and a million angels, well like 6 win g3)
R6: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R7: NO OPPONENT SHOWS UP
R8: Merfolk with TNN (frustration with TNN)
R9: DROP

updated list below:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder


3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Moat

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels

Board:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus

Have board plans available upon request. Only 2 RIP's may be questionable. I still like blood moon vs. bug and delver decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lambert101

After going 3-6 in GP DC I think its time to ask for some help with this deck

R1: 2-1 Elves (Izzet Staticaster blows him out in G2 and G3 especially when it hits double dryad arbor)
R2: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R3: Jund (land screw g3)
R4: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R5: Esper Death-Blade (tight play and a million angels, well like 6 win g3)
R6: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R7: NO OPPONENT SHOWS UP
R8: Merfolk with TNN (frustration with TNN)
R9: DROP

updated list below:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder


3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Moat

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels

Board:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus

Have board plans available upon request. Only 2 RIP's may be questionable. I still like blood moon vs. bug and delver decks.

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I don't understand the single EE and single Moat without Enlightened Tutor. Makes more sense if you turn that single Ponder into ET. Yeah, 3rd EtA is totally dead against combos, but even MD it, your report still says not enough removal multiple times. That suggests 3rd EtA MD is not that impactful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lambert101

After going 3-6 in GP DC I think its time to ask for some help with this deck

R1: 2-1 Elves (Izzet Staticaster blows him out in G2 and G3 especially when it hits double dryad arbor)
R2: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R3: Jund (land screw g3)
R4: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R5: Esper Death-Blade (tight play and a million angels, well like 6 win g3)
R6: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R7: NO OPPONENT SHOWS UP
R8: Merfolk with TNN (frustration with TNN)
R9: DROP

updated list below:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder


3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Moat

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels

Board:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus

Have board plans available upon request. Only 2 RIP's may be questionable. I still like blood moon vs. bug and delver decks.

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Your list looks cool, though I've never been a fan of Venser and don't run Cliques atm (might be back if Combo rises as predicted). In the wake of TNN I'd suggest: -1 Venser, +1 EE, -1 Terminus, +1 1 S. Verdict

SB:
-1 Moon (many manabases have adjusted to Moons, and as a 1of you won't find it reliably), +1 Wear/Tear (crucial against Vials and equipment), 1 Izzet (another Terminus/Verdict just looks more solid)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lambert101

After going 3-6 in GP DC I think its time to ask for some help with this deck.

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I think an important question to ask here is, how much do you feel like your wins were limited by your playskill? Small tweaks in the list are going to be helpful, but honestly playing Miracles is much, much more about how well you play it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I think an important question to ask here is, how much do you feel like your wins were limited by your playskill? Small tweaks in the list are going to be helpful, but honestly playing Miracles is much, much more about how well you play it.

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Thisthisthisthisthis.

You lose more games than your opponents win. There is almost always a way. (Unless you spend the whole match without an SDT. -_-)

I've been on a roughly one month hiatus from playing, so I still haven't seen a True-Name Nemesis yet in an actual event. Are those decks problems for Miracles?

Obviously, I don't think the card itself is a huge issue (for this deck), but Esper, Bant, or UWR shell surrounding those decks can be problematic.

TNN is basically worse than a GosT against us, so I'm not bothered by it. It has the slight advantage of being able to hit through our Angels, but I'm not sure how great that is. It's 3-damage, we really don't care about it. Also I have Supreme Verdict so whatever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

TNN is basically worse than a GosT against us, so I'm not bothered by it. It has the slight advantage of being able to hit through our Angels, but I'm not sure how great that is. It's 3-damage, we really don't care about it. Also I have Supreme Verdict so whatever.

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Being able to trade with Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster, or Venser, as well as die to Pyroclasm are pretty relevant too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

TNN is basically worse than a GosT against us

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I disagree with this. While it usually isn't substantially more devastating than a Geist, there are a lot fewer ways to interact with TNN than Geist. Your options to a resolved Nemesis are basically: race with damage (as opposed to Jace), Terminus, and Supreme Verdict. In addition to those, against Geist you can Pyroclasm, block with an Angel, block with a Snapcaster, block with a Venser, block with a Clique, block with a Celestial Colonnade, block with an Elspeth token... (seeing a pattern...?). Basically, it's 4-5 (possibly 6) answers for Nemesis as opposed to at least 9-12 answers to a Geist. Again, it isn't unbeatable, but since it can basically force you to 1-for-1 a Terminus with it, it can definitely be problematic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Obviously, I don't think the card itself is a huge issue (for this deck), but Esper, Bant, or UWR shell surrounding those decks can be problematic.

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I think the most difficult thing for this deck to play against is mana disruption + a fast clock. Either one is beatable by itself and even the decks that employ both strategies can't always deploy both at once; however, if they do then you will be under a lot of pressure.

Against Delver variant decks, it's difficult to reach 4 or more lands. If you are even thinking about resolving Moat against TNN, you probably have to fight over a wall of spell pierce, daze, and FoW. An easier approach would just drop Runed Halo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Against Delver variant decks, it's difficult to reach 4 or more lands. If you are even thinking about resolving Moat against TNN, you probably have to fight over a wall of spell pierce, daze, and FoW. An easier approach would just drop Runed Halo.

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Against Delver decks, I would worry about resolving a Counterbalance first which usually makes Pierce and Daze pretty non-threatening. If I can float a FoW on top then even better. Runed Halo is so freakishly narrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Against Delver decks, I would worry about resolving a Counterbalance first which usually makes Pierce and Daze pretty non-threatening. If I can float a FoW on top then even better. Runed Halo is so freakishly narrow.

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Nothing quite beats countering a Force with a Force on top and then spinning your Top to draw and play it.

Still getting used to playing this newfangled version of the deck with them there 'Creatures'. I expect to Ambush Viper many Geists. Up until recently I played a single Entreat with a second in the board, and I haven't played much since I changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Still getting used to playing this newfangled version of the deck with them there 'Creatures'. I expect to Ambush Viper many Geists. Up until recently I played a single Entreat with a second in the board, and I haven't played much since I changed.

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I'm somewhat in the same boat and trying to get it out of my head that Entreat is just a win condition. As far as one-sided board wipes go, Entreat is about as good as it gets.

... and speaking of Ambush Vipers, I was playing against Oops All Spells a few weeks ago and I guess he kept a loose hand because for whatever reason he decided to get his Wild Cantor in there for that one damage on turn two. Punished.

For the new TNN meta, Miracles will have to run a full package of 4 Terminus mainboard.

In sideboard this might be the way to go:
2/3 Humility - Makes Emrakul, Griselbrand and TNN humble again.
1/2 Supreme Verdict - Another way to make a clean board.

Anyone had problems dealing with TNN in their games?

I've been testing this list with the following findings vs TNN

4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
3 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Mountain

The list performed very well overall. But let's specify this on the TNN - Esperblade and Merfolk aren't good MUs - but def. beatable. All the other TNN lists, be it Turtenwald UWR or Bant are easy. They hardly have any meaningful interaction and you just sweep the board until you got them.

I think TNN made Miracles a better deck than it was before. More people playing creatures (lol) is always good - be it Shrouded or hexproofed creatures, we don't care.

I strongly advise trying my list - besides a few boarding-problems I have to fix one way or another the list seems to be very well prepared to beat the field right now.

Greetings

wouldn't you like to test some Humility/Moat?

what's your % matchup against Sneak Show?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I'm somewhat in the same boat and trying to get it out of my head that Entreat is just a win condition. As far as one-sided board wipes go, Entreat is about as good as it gets.

... and speaking of Ambush Vipers, I was playing against Oops All Spells a few weeks ago and I guess he kept a loose hand because for whatever reason he decided to get his Wild Cantor in there for that one damage on turn two. Punished.

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"Erm. Float a green... Erm... Oh shit no. OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

wouldn't you like to test some Humility/Moat?

what's your % matchup against Sneak Show?

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I don't see the need for Humility/Moat right now. My % against SneakShow... well - don't have the figures ready but as you can see from my list Show and Tell will never ever resolve, leaving only Sneak Attack as the problem, admittingly I seem to be running low on answers against this - which is one of my concern points with the 2 Flusterstorm in the Sideboard...

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

I don't see the need for Humility/Moat right now. My % against SneakShow... well - don't have the figures ready but as you can see from my list Show and Tell will never ever resolve, leaving only Sneak Attack as the problem, admittingly I seem to be running low on answers against this - which is one of my concern points with the 2 Flusterstorm in the Sideboard...
Greetings

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Needle goes a long way and I'm currently operating on 1-2 and like 'em.

hey guys,

heres what ive been playing for a couple of weeks:

3 stoneforge
3 clique

2 jace

4 brainstorm
4 top

4 counterbal
3 spell pierce
3 force
1 counterspell
3 terminus

1 supreme
1 engineered explosives
3 plow

1 entreat
1 batterskull

4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 tundra
2 volcanic
2 plains
5 island
1 karakas
1 academy ruins

sb:
2 meddling mage
2 ethersworn canonist
1 entreat
1 sword of feast//famine
1 jitte
2 flusterstorm
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 rip
1 pithing needle
1 oring/ensnaring bridge
1 wear/tear

I haven't really had many issues with TNN decks with this list because I have 5 sweepers, plus batterskull to close. This is why I am running a sfm package, ee, and academy ruins. I was feeling especially soft to combo so I am testing this more proactive sb approach.

ex. vs sneak

-1 supreme
-3 plow
-1 encplosives
-1 entreat
-1 batterskull
-2 terminus
-2 jace
(11)

+2 meddling
+2 canonist
+1 sword
+2 flusterstorm
+1 red blast
+1 pyroblast
+1 needle
+1 oring
(11)

I don't really like playing against any combo, so I do think that I might be *slightly* biased in my sb vs them. My plan is to land a t2 threat (disrupt the combo ideally), backed by a flash t3 threat (clique or cheat sword) and try to get a sword active as soon as possible all the while having access to multiple cheap counters for their action. I know its asking for a lot to go right, but at least its a plan. some people recommended swan song, but I don't like how it lines up with what I am trying to do. I leave 1 terminus in there just in case (which is likely wrong) Jace is probably better leave in, as it can help close the game on a different axis, provide mid-late game card advantage, and keep the force count up.

notes:
here are some tweaks that you might consider depending on meta: more needles, wear/tear, more entreat, venser(s), more karakas. maybe enlightened tutor, maybe elspeth. Most of this wishlist could be fulfilled by playing miracletek, but I think its worth mentioning to better visualize the differences.

I see the talks about humility/moat stuff going on. 4 mana is too steep for my curve as far as reliability (aside from wincons). I understand that you can drop it off show and tell - I just prefer oring/ensnaring bridge @ cmc3

by no means am I saying this is the best list, because I think Joe's is probably top dog, I've just been having a good run and I felt it was worth sharing.