Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
In Death and Taxes, a 3 drop is a big investment, so they better have a big impact on the board when they come down. Other notable 3 drops in D&T include
Mangara of Corondor,
Flickerwisp,
Brimaz, King of Oreskos,
Mirran Crusader. If you notice there are really 2 categories of 3 drops here. One that helps with the lock by being versatile removal spells that may also lock up mana, while the other helps with swaying the board completely in terms of aggro board positions. If you choose to use the cards you mentioned above, which one would you see yourself cutting? Does it make a big enough impact on the game? These are the questions you should ask yourself.
With the 2 drop,
Archetype of Courage, you may have to consider what our 2 drops do. Given that this deck is supposed to lock up mana, this would help with the strategy a bit. Would this recreate a dilemma for the opponent to cast spells vs kill your knight? A control deck or combo deck would be less affected by your 2/2 than the flying
Serra Avenger. Your clock would be slower. The aggro decks would just drop the bigger creature to not take the hit and then pay for your 2/2 later on. Giving the opponent this choice is never a good idea in MTG. Serrra Avenger is better in both situations I'd say unless your opponent is a poor player.
Ok, thanks! So, you think that Death&Taxes list is actually totally optimized (Creatures side) ?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
Ok, thanks! So, you think that Death&Taxes list is actually totally optimized (Creatures side) ?
Well, it's not a tier one deck, so I think there is always room for improvements. I'm not saying I'm an expert in the deck either. I'm just trying to get you to weigh in the advantages and disadvantages of your card choices and make your own decisions.
I personally think Serra Avenger isn't that great of a card, but people that have been topping 16 recently at SCG have all been running it in their D&T decks. What I'm trying to say is, keep up the mentality for looking for better cards, but make sure you know why you are replacing certain cards for others.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Godsend might be in competition with the protection swords , because it basically gives "protection from creatures". It shouldn't target , so a nemesis blocking a creature equipped with godsend should die. Obviously the swords have much more powerful effects.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeoCop 90
Godsend might be in competition with the protection swords , because it basically gives "protection from creatures". It shouldn't target , so a nemesis blocking a creature equipped with godsend should die. Obviously the swords have much more powerful effects.
It's a SB card... but a reasonable one. My fear is that they just chump with their SFM or Delver (or just take it) while TNN + Jitte run roughshod
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
While that is pretty fancy, I would rather have Crusader + SoFaI to crush them within two turns.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
While that is pretty fancy, I would rather have Crusader + SoFaI to crush them within two turns.
This, all day.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Well, i think the only upside is that, while the effect of godsend is less powerful then sword of fire and ice, it is a bit more broader. It's simply better against every non red non blue creature. In the current metagame though you want to run sword of fire and ice of course.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeoCop 90
Well, i think the only upside is that, while the effect of godsend is less powerful then sword of fire and ice, it is a bit more broader. It's simply better against every non red non blue creature. In the current metagame though you want to run sword of fire and ice of course.
Blue decks make up more than half of the metagame.
Godsend is much worse than having protection from creatures. Creatures with abilities can still affect the equipped creature can still target the equipped creature. It is just protection from combat damage, which isn't much for the cost of casting/equipping. The versatility is not so great as it doesn't really add value to the deck's core strategy.
Equipping to critters with flying or first strike is also redundant in this deck (Flickerwisp/Serra Avenger/Mirran Crusader/Thalia/etc.)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm new at this deck, with horrible result :) I yet don't know play it very well yet, and have some questions about the deck for the more experiment players.
My list is this (like tons of decklist on the net):
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
3 Spirit of the Labirynth
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
_________________
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wild Seaf Liege
1 Sunlance
1 Celestial Flare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Meekstone
My questions are:
The best (and the only one) turn 1 drops, are Aether Vial > Mother of runes, that's easy, but, who is the best turn 2?? Thalia or Stoneforge? I think the correct order should be:
Phyrexin Revoker (if wee need to neutralice a Deathrite, Sensei, Noble Hierarch??) > Thalia (the most common case, or is better wait to have a Karakas online??) > Stoneforge Mystic (if we have mother online in turn 2, best than Thalia?) > Spirit of the Labyrinth (I don't know yet if this creature is good here).
Sorry for my english! :laugh:
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
The best 2-drop depends on the situation and MU you are facing. If you're heads on with Storm, then Thalia is your 2-drop. If it's Sneak and Show, then it is Revoker, etc... This deck is easy to play, but extremely hard to play excellent. Just play it a lot and you will get better with it.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shardless
I'm new at this deck, with horrible result :) I yet don't know play it very well yet, and have some questions about the deck for the more experiment players.
My list is this (like tons of decklist on the net):
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
3 Spirit of the Labirynth
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
_________________
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wild Seaf Liege
1 Sunlance
1 Celestial Flare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Meekstone
My questions are:
The best (and the only one) turn 1 drops, are Aether Vial > Mother of runes, that's easy, but, who is the best turn 2?? Thalia or Stoneforge? I think the correct order should be:
Phyrexin Revoker (if wee need to neutralice a Deathrite, Sensei, Noble Hierarch??) > Thalia (the most common case, or is better wait to have a Karakas online??) > Stoneforge Mystic (if we have mother online in turn 2, best than Thalia?) > Spirit of the Labyrinth (I don't know yet if this creature is good here).
Sorry for my english! :laugh:
I lean towards "when in doubt, drop Thalia on the table first." It's a Thalia based deck and she's there for a reason. You can tempo out many decks with her on the table, then follow up with Stoneforge.
Dave
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Thalia all day.
The only time Thalia is bad is against a green beat down deck like Mavericks or Vial Goblins. I think the Spirit is alright. She's mainly an anti-blue card, but I think Thalia is better.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Thanks to everybody for the answers!
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I think if you start the game and do not know what deck is playing your opponent, play Thalia at turn 2 but if your opponent play on his turn 1 an agressive creature putting a high clock, play Stoneforge, because your opponent need a removal next turn or generally germ will touch the battlefield and it is hard to fight with it.
On the other hand, if you know what is playing your opponent and it is a combo, control or aggro-control deck, play Thalia, if it's aggro, allways Stoneforge.
You have to decide for mana denial way or more aggresive way, but I think that we play Thalia in a higher percentage. Also y think it is very important if we have in hand or play Karakas or Ports to decide how to play.
Against Sneak & Show I prefer for turn 2 a Thalia if i have her in hand, and not a Revoker. Generally at turn 2 this combo deck is playing cantrips so I prefer Thalia for that reason. Revoker for turn 3 or when opponent play Show and Tell to flip and name Sneak Attack or Griselbrand. Sometimes i name Lotus Petal too while I play it at turn 2/3.
Finally, I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is for some specific situations and it can win the game in a specific moment but for this reason I prefer reserve the spirit and not to play it at turn 2. It's not better than a Thalia or Stoneforge in any situation for turn 2 too I think.
This is my first post at The Source. Sorry for my poor english :laugh:
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey guys, after i took i little break from the archetype i decided to play it again and i'm find the BUG(control and delver) MU a hell to beat, do you have any tips for the list(i know what to do during the game, but if i have better cards for the matchup i might win a little easier)
here is my list
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [CHK] Eiganjo Castle
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
2 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [A] Meekstone
SB: 2 [EX] Cataclysm(i hate cataclysms, but i don't want to play celestial flares again)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@Oreia: I can't say much about BUG Control, but I don't see anything wrong with that list when battling BUG Delver. Unless they have an unchecked Liliana do her thing for a while, a nut draw or a bad draw on your side, you should be doing very well here.
Where are your exact problems in these match-ups?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
@Oreia: I can't say much about BUG Control, but I don't see anything wrong with that list when battling BUG Delver. Unless they have an unchecked Liliana do her thing for a while, a nut draw or a bad draw on your side, you should be doing very well here.
Where are your exact problems in these match-ups?
My problem is that BUG is the dominant deck in my meta(around 30~35%), even when my opponent doesn't really know how to play around my deck, they can still win because DRS, Tarmogoyf, force of will liliana ans Discards in the shame shell are too much for a single deck to handle(when they curve out, obv), and i just wanna know if there is some kind of free win against them(i know mirran is kinda free win, but it's not against bug control which hass quad TNN),I mean, my win percentage against BUG is really high, i just don't wanna play thins attrition match every round.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Mirran Crusader is a BEAST against BUG decks. If your meta is BUG heavy consider main decking four of him. If you don't feel like that much hate is necessary then go two main, two board.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Red Zone
Mirran Crusader is a BEAST against BUG decks. If your meta is BUG heavy consider main decking four of him. If you don't feel like that much hate is necessary then go two main, two board.
I would go 3 in the main anyway. Mirran Crusader with Double Strike is just a beast. I don't think I'd go with 4 though. You'd just get flooded. A 3 drop is like a turn 5 at best because of Rishadan Port.
I'd also go with Wilt-leaf Liege. Although we've already discussed this topic just three pages ago..
