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Hey guys, as I'm sure you have noticed the thread's primer is fucking ancient, and was always quite shitty to begin with. Since this thread keeps bouncing in and out of the DTBF basically every other month, it would be probably be a good idea to get a reboot going with a non-shitty non-ancient primer.
So if you were thinking about writing one, or even if you weren't, consider it a nudge in that direction.
My suggestion would be Alsan assuming he had the time and desire. heh. My 2 cents. I think hes been one of the few that continously has piloted the deck. And to good results to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Oh! That would be a HUGE honor! If no one refuses, I'll do my best of doing a big and worked premier for this thread in 1-2 days, wednesday submitted. Thank you very much :D.
Can't wait to read it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alsan
me tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Hey all,
I was hoping to spark some conversation seeing as how this thread is kinda dead. I'm planning on playing this deck in some upcoming events as I think reanimator is all around a really solid, powerful, and punishing deck. The maindeck that I've settled on is this:
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead (Might make this number a 2-of, and Reanimate a 3-of)
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Show and Tell
2 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Iona
1 Tidesprout
1 Elesh Norn
4 Griselbrand
4 Lotus Petal
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
Reasons for some card choices:
I think Tidesprout is really bad, but a concession to the fact that sometimes it's the only way to win games. I'm playing a 2-2 split of Daze and Thoughtseize because I wanted access to remove their disruption pro-actively while also having access to more "free disruption" once a Griselbrand resolved because I noticed that there were times where Grisel would hit play and I'd need more than just the four forces. It also makes resolving a turn 1 or 2 dork infinitely more reliable.
The sideboard is where I'm stuck.
This is what I know I want:
2 Karakas
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize
2-3 Pithing Needle
This is what I'm thinking for the last slots
2-3 Flusterstorm
2 Echoing Truth
Let me know what you all think.
Can anyone tell me why the "stock" list is playing Lotus Petal to speed up, but has cut Daze? Or why you're playing 2 Show and Tells in the main (for example over bounce as a Sourcer did in Denver)?
Reasons I will not accept: because Todd Anderson told me to; because I have never played reanimator before
Because Daze sucks in combo decks. You only care about countering specific cards, not random Tarmogoyfs. Daze is bad at countering the things that actually matter since it becomes a blank so quickly. But it's a great card to play if you're having trouble sideboarding, because you'll always know what to cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I'm no Reanimator expert at all, but Show and Tell maindeck seems a clear pick to fight Deathrite Shaman, which has become an issue (a turn 1 Shaman on the play is literally unbeatable except with "Entomb with Exhume-on-stack" convolute loops). A similar motivation can be given for Lotus petal, which increases the speed of reanimating a dude to bypass DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvith
In my opinion and test the deck needs:
3 thoguthseize + 1 Misdirection + 4 FOW
or
2 Thoughtseize + 2 Misdirection + 4 FOW
or
2 Thoughtseize + 1 Misdirection + 1 Fluterstorm + 4 FOW
or
2 Thoughtseize + 1 Misdirection + 1 Unmask + 4 FOW
Still working on it, I've been hospitalized this week, so wait a little longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I don't like the inclusion of Lotus Petal, I'd rather just run another land. Daze has been useful to me so far in testing, it often counters Liliana's etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Show and Tell seems like an alternate option to Animate Dead given Abrupt Decay is running rampant right now--I think some number of Animate Dead is correct, but maybe I'll replace them with Exhumes soon to avoid that. In any event I would still run a few Show and Tell's just to help deal with shamans.
Bounce maindeck is something I've thought about a little, my list feels very tight at the moment though, maybe you could recommend something to remove? Or if anyone has suggestions to the list in general?
//Creatures:
2x Griselbrand
1x Jin Gitaxis
1x Sheoldred
1x Empyreal Archangel
1x Elesh Norn
1x Blazing Archon
1x Iona
1x Hapless Researcher
//Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
4x Reanimate
2x Exhume
2x Animate Dead
2x Show and Tell
3x Duress (Don't have thoughtseizes right now)
4x Entomb
// 17 Lands
// Sideboard:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Spell Pierce
2x Flusterstorm
1x Show and Tell
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Angel of Despair
3x Abrupt Decay (Testing these out)
Just wanted to post my result on a GPT strasbourg in the Netherlands last Sunday. I finished 3rd with reanimator. I played with this list:
Creatures:
3 Griselbrand
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Hapless Researcher
Lands:
2 Island
3 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
Spells:
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell
Sideboard:
2 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
3 Submerge
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Wipe Away
2 Vendilion Clique
I played against the following decks:
Swiss rounds:
Round 1: The Gate (my teammate): Lost 0-2 due to play errors
Round 2: Dragon Stompy: Win 2-0
Round 3: Tin Fins: Win 2-1
Round 4: The Rock: Draw 1-1-1 (lost game 1 due to me thinking he was jund/eva green and putting iona on black to blank his removal only to have him play KOTR and fetching karakas while using a topdecked maze to hold of iona)
Round 5: Esper Stoneblade: Win 2-0
Round 6: RUG Delver: Win 2-0
Top 8:
RUG Delver: Win 2-0
Esper Stoneblade: Loss 0-2 (game 1 he topdecked his 1-off supreme verdict against my tidespout and empyrial. He went further to win the tournament)
The meta was very combo heavy (despite me facing off against only 1 of them) with a lot of show and tell decks. There was also a fair number of jund present and a few storm decks.
I found that the maindeck show and tells were pretty useless and usually only fodder for force. The sideboard cliques were also pretty useless. I might just go back to playing no shows main and 3 side and kicking the cliques for something else. I only played against one deck with deathrites but saw them every game and found them not that troublesome since you can daze or force him and since they board out abrupt decay for the postboard games, pithing needle becomes a house against them.
The karakas also did nothing, but I might keep it in for thalia, the mirror and show and tell decks
__________________
Really? Daze sucks in the fastest Force of Will combo deck in the format but is perfectly fine in the slower Sneak & Show / Omniscience decks? I have trouble buying that. You're right that it's a great card to trim postboard, but that doesn't mean it's bad in the main. The only real reason to play reanimator is because it consistently "goes off" turn 2 with protection preboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikoo
The biggest problem with S&T is that you're running a creature toolbox and 4 Vampiric Tutors, but only if you reanimate it! As miserable as Careful Study was sometimes at binning the wrong creature, I can only imagine how a 2-card combo that's actively bad against most other combo decks in the format could be. There are better answers to permanent hate maindeck like Daze, Force of Will, and if you're really frightened, bounce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
novatinhu - You want to play 5-6 pitch spells with an already-low U count? Like what's the stock list's count, less than 20, right? Good luck having cards to pitch.
Kich867 - So you're playing 5 study effects, 90% of the time want to put Griselbrand into play preboard, but you're only running 2 Griselbrand?! Cut the cute shit like Sheoldred from the 75, Archon to the board. The only decks Archon is good against are decks without removal that need to battle...so merfolk and sometimes dredge or sneak and show?
I'd run therapy over Duress, but Duress is reasonable. Playing Pierce doesn't make sense to me though. You almost never have spare mana when you're reanimating, but that's why you play 9-10 outs - if they counter one, you just play another! So cut pierce, S&T for more outs and bounce.
Good job on the finish! It's interesting that despite 9 creatures maindeck to support S&T, it was still bad. :cool: Your analysis makes a lot of sense for Clique and Needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich
I found myself wishing the show and tells were animate dead more often than I'd like (like nearly always game 1). Also I found that most times I could just do what reanimator does best: just binning a creature and getting it back to win, ignoring the show and tell in my hand because it was a slower strategy. I tested the same list a few weeks earlier and came to the same conclusion, but since I was expecting a lot of deathrite decks and sneaky show decided to leave the list the same to combat these decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I chose to have 9 creatures to have spares with hapless researcher if some got removed by deathrite. Hapless researcher was a house again btw, blocking batterskulls, hitting for more than 6 damage in some matches and avoiding getting blown out by deathrites and surgicals.
Caveat: I have not played traditional Reanimator, but I've played against it on numerous occasions and understand how to beat it. (Go maverick!) Anyways...
Daze should be included in Reanimator. It's one of the strongest counters when the pieces fall into place. I agree with phazonmuant that it makes more sense for Reanimator to play it vs Show & Tell variants. Of course it loses potency as the game goes on. For this purpose they can be pitched to Force of Will, discarded to Careful Study, or shuffled back into the deck with Brainstorm. Not many decks can interact in the early turns where Entomb/Reanimate is played out quickly. For those decks that do, Daze is great counter.
Lists playing situational cards need to have a very well justified reason for doing so. If your metagame is 30% Maverick, then yes perhaps Angel of Despair and Tidespout Tyrant make sense, because they are non-Legendary and provide disruption. If the metagame is a lot more RUG, then these are pathetic reanimation targets. They will likely get there anyway, since RUG can't deal with anything that flies and is large.
I would suggest the core targets become:
3 Griselbrand (and a strong case for the 4th)
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Tidespout Tyrant
Obviously, Griselbrand is the best target in the blind. Elesh Norn and Iona deal with creature and combo decks, respectively. Finally, Tidespout Tyrant provides the most flexible "answer" to gummy situations. Terastadon, Angel of Despair, Blazing Archon, Jin Gitaxious, Sphinx of the Steelwind, Inkwell Leviathan, etc should sit in the board for their respective good matchups, and not necessarily all of them.
I didn't say Daze is fine in Sneak/Show and Omniscience. It's about a thousand times worse in those decks. It's much more debatable whether or not it should be in Reanimator, whereas you should pretty much just be ashamed of yourself for playing it in those other S&T decks. Personally, I don't like it because I will be boarding it out probably around 80% of the time in the first place. It does make the maindeck a bit stronger, but it has almost zero application in postboard games for me. However, if it's working for you, then by all means continue playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
By the way, I compiled the replays from the MOCS into a video here https://vimeo.com/60115813
Therapies were definitely a consideration for targeting myself with, as another way to ditch cards, I presume Thoughtseize operates in a similar manner. I'm also quite experienced with the card, I mean the reality is you just don't want a specific card in your opponent's hand and naming that isn't all that hard, if you whiff then they don't have it and you're fine. So saving two life might not be terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
In my targeted meta, there is a great deal of Hypergenesis / Show and Tell / Jund sort of decks, so for these decks I find Sheoldred and Archon to be good answers--Hypergenesis literally can't beat him and Show and Tell can have a lot of trouble against Sheoldred, same with Hypergenesis, but you may be correct and I should just opt them out for other cards, perhaps put Tidespout back in the main (he performed very well when I saw him).
Also, I sort of view Jin as an alternative to Griselbrand. He's different. If my opponent taps out, I almost always opt to get him over Griselbrand simply because the draw 7 costs no life and then the opponent is in top-deck mode, while I get to draw 7 every turn until I kill him. If my opponent is not tapped out and has possible removal, I'll opt for Griselbrand, get real low, but keep him alive.
Pierce I can agree on, S&T Main I can agree on as well, haven't seen a lot of use out of it, but I don't exactly want to be blown out by turn 1 deathrite's. Exhumes help fight him off with an overloaded graveyard but having an option to get around him feels good. Though EOT bouncing him seems solid as well.
Do you feel that Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth is better? Echoing Truth is a nice maindeck answer to a lot of token bullshit, but being 1 mana will save me a turn of waiting.
I think I will drop pierces for Chain of Vapor's and S&T's for exhumes.
I'm building Reanimator, and this is the reanimator package I'm running:
2x Griselbrand
1x Jin
1x Iona
1x Elesh
1x Sheoldred
Thoughts?
I added Sheoldred because of my meta, but she i remove her?