My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
How have 21 land been treatin you thusfar?
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My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
How have 21 land been treatin you thusfar?
I don't understand your SB. You should take out all the StP and leave in Terminus. You cannot target Argothian, that would leave Terminus/EE/Verdict as your method of removing her if she ever hits play.Quote:
Originally Posted by aex
If the game goes long, you're doing something wrong. There're only 2 things you need to do:
1. Don't get caught by Choke. Do NOT play JtMS into Choke.
2. As long as you counter/remove every single card that has the word Enchantress (Argoithan/Presence) on it, that deck cannot beat you.
Let's say you've failed on point 2, only 1 Enchantress has resolved, you can try to Entreat ASAP to race before he either finds another Enchantress or finds the correct enchantment.
I was boarding as such;
-4 stp
-3/4 terminus
+3 clique
+1 entreat
+1 counterspell
+1 disenchant
+1 ee
(+1) relic (for replenish)
If that helps.
Here is my opponents list;
http://pastebin.com/bu6EUKXK
Regards.
Ponder/brainstorm/top have been fine for finding lands, though the easiest way to lose is not making the land drops. i can certainly see another land being good.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
"Miracles is slightly favored," said Phillip Braverman, regarding this MU, in the new podcast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Instead or risking Ponder-1-land hand on turn 1 to find 2nd land drop, why not just have more lands so you don't frequently get into this 1-land mulligan dilemma? I'm not suggesting 24 btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
@Tammit67 - I agree that not finding land #3/4 immediately is back back breaking more often than not.
I was alluding at that, though 24 seems overkill imo, as that amount also negatively affects the CB curve. 22-23 (depending on the build) seems quite correct.Quote:
Instead or risking Ponder-1-land hand on turn 1 to find 2nd land drop, why not just have more lands so you don't frequently get into this 1-land mulligan dilemma? I'm not suggesting 24 btw.
I used to rock 24 back in the Landstill days, but that was w/o Top and Ponder and also paying dues to the need to consistantly land-drop while Standstill is online.
Because 2 Lands + Ponder is better than 3 Lands, and you keep 1-Land Ponder + 4 good cards every single time. Because On turn 12 you want to draw a Ponder, see an extra card, and then shuffle, draw, and see an extra three, because you need to close out a game. Not an Island. Because Ponder - quite simply - is the single best card that will never be up for being banned in Legacy. Because save Brainstorm, Ponder wins you more games than any other card in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
T1 Ponder is the best play you can make in Legacy that doesn't involve a Tendrils of Agony, and even then it's close.
I have been playing Ein's list for a bit now and i often ran into this problem. I know that playing 4 ponder means we can be greedier with our opening seven but i often drew a one land hand with a ponder/top. How often will you guys advocate keeping this hand? I will definitely mulligan if i am playing against delver decks/wasteland heavy decks but i might keep if i am playing against others(of course depending on what is my other 5 cards).
Secondly, Michael Majors suggested playing Monastery Mentor in the place of a few jaces and entreats. Has anyone playtested the list and how did it pan out for you?
Never mulligan a hand with a land and a cantrip. Just don't.
Greetings
* Plains, Brainstorm, +5Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
* or Island, Ponder, 2 Terminus, EtA, Jace, +1
..would like to have a word with you.
Pedantic
noun
Being a dick when someone gives good advice.
Totally agree here with Philipp. 4 ponder and 21 lands is totally okay. You guys are creating cases that happen once every 50 matches or so. the 4 ponder list is probably the most consistent list in all of legacy. all you need is a cantrip and a blue mana source in your opening hand. An additional card in your opening hand is just so valuable in legacy.
what im not sure about is:
Is this the correct line? against an unknown opponent. lets say opening hand is: sword, snapcaster, ponder, island, flooded strand, jace, terminus and you are on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Not the best hand but imo totally fine and keepable. Do you ponder here on turn one? I dont think so. maybe you only want a brainstorm out of the top 3 cards. so on turn 2 you can fetch away the other crappy cards.
Maybe Philipp can write a few sentences on how to maximize the value of ponder. Also i would be interested in how different the deck performs with 9 instead of 10 fetchlands. I believe a fifth island would help against stifle. has this been in consideration?
Ponder turn 1 is a no brainer here and you don't even need to look for something specific. Brainstorm would be amazing, of course, but also Top would be a nice find, and you both keep them on top in order to protect them from discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
There is really no Ponder guide, it all depends on:
1: What you are facing? What's the amount of information you have regarding opponent's deck/hand in the moment you cast Ponder?
2: After you have some/all the information you need regarding point 1, what do you expect to happen in the next turn? and in two turns? (in case you don't have any info at all, just goldfish keeping key cards protected from discard safely on top of your library)
3: What are the correct plays and the specific cards you need in the following two turns?
4: Congrats, now you can't misplay Ponder!
well I disagree. after reading this post im more confused then ever. But following your logic here:Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
1. I dont know what im facing since its turn one, game 1 and im on the play.
2. I dont know what i have 2 expect.
3. How the heck im supposed 2 know what i need?
4. Okay, thanks.
My understanding is that there are 8 great cards i want 2 find: 4 BS 4 Top, at the same time i have 5 more miracles, 2 Jaces and 1 DTT i dont want.
Lol :) But I agree with klaus to a certain extent. I know Ein is a very good player and all but when you start acting like a celebrity and post like that you will have pedancitiy (c'mon scrabble guys) coming your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Well if you're playing against a creature deck, you don't have to turn 1 ponder. Since you have the luxery of just playing an island on turn 1, then Ponder + Swords on turn 2. And you don't have to worry about being dead in 2-3 turns, the game will probably go long because you have Snapcaster Mage and Terminus in hand already as well. So if you have that much information, then it's a good play.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
However, if you're playing an unknown opponent, this hand is just plain bad against combo. I'd actually recommend searching for any anti-combo cards such as Force of Will, Counterbalance or any other counterspell straight from the get-go. In case you might fear a discard spell, you should leave the found-counterspell on top so you can always use it turn 2. Most combo decks don't win turn 1 anyway, which is something you already decided when keeping this hand.
Edit: Oh, and hello everyone! This is my first post. Been playing Miracles for some time now, thought I'd join in the discussion.
Wow. Nevermind the fact that Top is obviously the turn 1 play that you invariably want from this deck, and that Ponder is just filler designed to streamline the deck; you actually now believe that it's the best turn 1 play in Legacy? Ponder is at most a 2-of in any archetype that doesn't have a specific need for the velocity or a specific interaction with it (read: Delver/Combo/Miracles). You don't run it in Shardless or Esper because it doesn't actually accomplish anything. Legacy becoming more and more a midrange creature format has made it better in recent years, but it's still fundamentally a sorcery-speed cantrip with a negligible effect on the game (Scry 3). Your deck needs a specific gameplan for the mana cost to even be justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Cards you don't want also make Ponder worth casting. Can't afford to draw a Terminus/Entreat on T1? Ponder makes sure you won't. It also mulligans any bomb heavy draws, or if you're just looking for action of any kind, you can Ponder away Lands and dig cards to spin for some Swords and Counterspells.
T1 Ponder is the best play in Legacy because it requires no additional input from any other cards, and you can still gain a huge edge when you're on the play G1. You ensure that your counter-heavy hand is able to interact with a Delver, or you can ensure that your Counterbalance has a reasonable card to flip on T2 if it calls for it, and sets you up to find more cantrips and Tops later on.
I'd argue that T1 ponder is the safest play you can make, not the strongest.
Honestly if it is my 7 card on the play is 1 land brainstorm, I'm probably shipping it. I've yet to feel there aren't enough lands, since once you hit your second, you can really use the cantrips/top to really hit whatever you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
If 4 brainstorm + 4 ponder is good enough for URW delver to hit 20 lands when it wants, why can't 4 brainstorm + 4 ponder + 4 top be good enough on 21 lands?
That kind of logic....Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
URW delver is not a control deck, Miracles is a control deck.
It's also match-up dependent. Is you assessment still the same if you know your opponent is on a Wasteland deck and that 1 land in your opening is a dual?
I mean, I get it. Some MU we cut a Plains in SB games, I agree. People tend to be on the safe side and not take enough risk. However, Wasteland does win games in this format.
URW is similar in that it really like hitting it's first 3 land drops. Regardless of what those lands are used for, they manage on fewer lands and fewer filter options. It's not like we cannot wrath if we don't hit 4 mana like the old days, we have a lot actionable cards on only 3 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Look, if you aren't comfortable with what I've found comfort in, feel free to do what you think is best. I'm not arguing that I have the best setup, just that it works well enough for me as of now.
I may be incredibly skewed, but they sound like the same thing. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
EDIT: Also, T1 Ponder sees 3 or 5 cards, T1 Brainstorm sees 3.
I'd argue a T1 top is much stronger :)Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I'm in no way arguing a t1 is weak, just that there is quite a difference between safe and strong, imho :D
Sure, it can be better to play t1 ponder if u specifically need that 2nd land etc, which again makes it safer :)
Island, go is better than any of this.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
If I have no info I still play ponder turn 1. Keeping on top key cards and avoiding drawing uncastable stuff turn 2 is important.
And thats why you're playing ponder turn 1, among other reasons such as setting up the gameplan in the next 2 turns…like playing Cb etcQuote:
Originally Posted by decan
Hell I might just wait a turn and play it turn 2 in my main phase, but I understand some find that really greedyQuote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Turn 1 blind ponder is one of the best turn 1 plays miracles, or any legacy deck, can do. Every hand could use better cards, knowing what the matchup is does not change that.
Do some math and you will realize that you get mana screwed less with 4 ponders 21 lands than with 23 lands, and this does not even factor in how often you get mana flooded. This is even more true when facing stifles, wastes, ports, etc.
I would sooner play 19 lands and 4 ponders in miracles than play 23 lands with no ponders. Anyone NOT playing 4 ponders is either relying on their gut feeling in the face of contradicting evidence or too lazy/sloppy to cut 2 cards (and 2 lands) to fit in ponders. It reminds me of when I used to play/discuss Nic Fit and people (of all skill levels) would cut brainstorms from BUG lists and/or play 61 cards so they could fit in more super-situational cards.
Example situations, literally the first 3 hands drawn where there was at least 1 ponder:
Hand: Tarn, 2x brainstorm, top, swords, ponder, snap
Next 3 cards: Counterspell, Force, Balance
Shuffled card: tarn
Its a snap keep, but ponder and shuffling makes things way better. If ponder was a non land the hand is way worse. If it was a land the game plays out basically the same.
Hand: Mesa, island, tarn, entreat, jace, terminus, ponder
Next 3: CB, Dig, FoW
Shuffled: Volc
G1 against unknown I would mull it, but ponder certainty helps and is definitely better than land.
Hand: Volc, tarn, 2xStrand, top, ponder, FoW
top 3: Snap, CB, Brainstorm
Shuffled: Councils Judgment.
Again, ponder is way better than a land. I'd turn 1 top and then save the ponder till I needed a shuffle. If your top gets forced pitching something that would indicate a gindy matchup (jace, dig, tnn, etc) you can FoW back pitching the ponder.
No way you should run less than 4 ponders. 21 lands 8 cantrips is the best configuration for this deck. It just runs so smooth.
Waiting turn 2 for that Ponder is doable, but not the correct play. Generally whenever I'm still setting up my lands, gameplan, cb lock, etc I cast Ponders as soon as I can (generally= most of the times). Why on earth would you keep the Ponder for turn two when maybe the top 3 cards of your deck are blue source + Counterspell + X card? Or cc2 card, blue source, Counterbalance? Or maybe an Entreat Entreat Jace pile of crap you want to shuffle away? Or maybe a sensei's was hiding as the 3rd card and you would have played it 2 turns later without Ponder? Possibilities in which Ponder is effective turn 1 are endless... Waiting just doesn't make any sense at all to me.
Questioning the turn 1 Ponder is awkward, and I don't see much reasoning supporting any alternative line of play…unless you go turn 1 top out of pierce/daze range, of course (gotta say it otherwise people going to quote and point out the obvious).
I cut a ponder (so playing 3/4/4) and I haven't struggled in any way, what so ever.
Got about 250 games after I did so, not missed it ONCE. It runs just as smooth, and the REB I swapped it with is still outstanding, even after TC was banned.
You make it sound like turn one ponder is better than top?Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Lets get back to my previous starting hand. you play turn one ponder and see Jace, Entreat and brainstorm, what do you do? i guess you take Entreat and leave bs on top? then opp plays island preordain. on your secound turn you would be left with: sword, snapcaster, flooded strand, jace, terminus, Entreat and bs. but hey next turn you can flashback ponder if you dont miss your landdrop.
The point is: I want maximum value from my ponder. I get one card deeper, can just take one card of the ponder and probably know what exactly what i need after opps first turn. whats the drawback? loss of speed?
Under the before mentioned circumstances i vehemently disagree that turn one ponder is a no brainer/correct play.
Turn 1, game 1 versus an unknown opponent, I'd be VERY hardpressed not just going Top > Go, if I had the possibility. You are safe from Daze/Pierce, which means the only stopping you should be FoW.
I'd muuuuuch rather have top in play, rather than having to play it later, with chance of more permission.
I don't, but you certainly make it sound like you can't understand what you read.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
Please read again carefully, there's also a line in brackets for you wild flamers that quote stuff without reading it.
Of course. In fact that's exactly what I wrote…Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I'd shuffle.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
You can make up a lot of examples where ponder shines and then you have the matchups where a land drop cant be countered like a ponder can. What is this statistic that you speak of making all lists except 4-ponder obsolete? I can create hundreds of hands for us to discuss but in the end lets just agree that lists are different due to play style and meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I run the afforementioned 22 lands with 2 ponder. Could I cut a land and a vendilion clique to follow the sheep in this thread? Why yes sir. Should I? Based on what statistic will this make me win more games? I have tried both lists and they are both fine and win games.
I repeat what I posted a few pages back, it is not a matter of changing 2 cards in your otherwise 58 card clones, it's about playing well and making correct decisions when it's crunch time. But I guess that people are tired of hearing this by now, since then they have nothing to discuss here.
Turn 1 ON THE PLAY, or on the draw against a non-blue deck, it is important to resolve top while you can. So yes, play it turn 1 over ponder. But if that is not an option, pondering is the best thing you can do.
Drawing the jace/entreat and then next turn brainstorming the expensive spells away in search of lands isn't a bad line. I would probably just shuffle though. That hand needs land, top or CB and basically nothing else. The top 3 were none of those cards. I would not feel worried in that situation. Between ponders draw, turn 2 draw and turn 3 draw, there's about a 27% chance you DONT see a land and end up missing your 3rd land drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
It's not even so much that someone can counter your Ponder than it is that when you're mana-screwed, you're being forced to use what's very likely your only blue in play to cast it. This is also compounded by the fact that you increase the number of 0 and 1-landers marginally by cutting land. If you get mana-screwed/Wastelanded and your opponent starts dumping their hand while you're bottle-necked, you may end up using 1 of the 5-7 mana you actually have available to you the first few turns of the game. If you factor in that all of this is secondary to activating a Top each turn, there's just not a ton of mana to go around in some starts. By turn 4, you can basically lose a game. The theoretical maximum amount of mana you can use by then is 10. More realistically it's 6-8, before taking into account Top activations.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
But hey, these are just my reasons for not running Ponder in the first place. I tried that card as a 2-of way back before people were posting lists with it, along with Portent, Impulse, Predict, etc. I hated Ponder more than any of the others. If I was going to run 4 copies however, I would definitely be cutting land. In fact, I'd probably start with 20.
Here's another Top-related one for you:
Game 1 VS. unknown archetype, mulled to 6 on the draw. Here's your hand:
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Top
1 Spell Pierce
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Swords to Plowshares
That's a pretty awesome hand - answers to basically anything and secure mana ressources.
Opponent plays Verdant Catacombs and passes the turn.
Question: Turn one Top or Island, go? I'd opt for the latter (mostly due to Hymn and random shenanigans), while I'm sure quite a few among you go for Top without hesitating.
The Pierce + Top opener has countless factors that make it tough to conclude on the right play.
Besides the above example, what's your general approach to this?
Hymn isn't good against you once you drop your Top, but I'd still play the Island and pass. My assumption is that they have Goyf, Liliana, and/or a significant amount of countermagic. You can easily get your Top countered, even by a Daze, which is one of the worst things a hand with no turn 1 play is going to do to you. If your opponent is on Storm, waiting a turn on the Top isn't that much worse, I don't think.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
EDIT: Ponder players don't even have Pierce, I don't think.
I would keep up mana for spell pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
-There is little to gain by playing the top turn 1 since you likely cannot use on upkeep.
-If they are Team America and have daze you get super punished for casting top.
-If jund or bug and they hymn you get super punished for casting top. If they just cast a goyf it doesnt matter.
-If its elves or maverick they could cast GSZ or just some dude that is not important.
-If its reanimator you also get punished for casting top.
I'm on Island -> Go, as I want to be holding up Pierce, and not walking Dazes.