[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

It's already been discussed. Some people like it and some people don't. The Hymn Stalker version is generally more popular, but it's not unheard of for someone to have success with a build running Dark Confidant. Here's a recent one: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=62695.

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I played Wiley's BUG Tempo list at SCG Columbus. Same maindeck although our sideboards were 13 of the same 15 (If I recall correctly he had 1 Golgari Charm and 2 Engineered Plagues, while I played the reverse and opted for a 3rd Flusterstorm over the Arcane Laboratory). We actually travelled to the event together as well. I went 5-0 then hit a rough patch... ended 5-3-1. It is worth mentioning that two of my losses were to Stoneblade players that made the Top 8 (Joe Bernal and James Baker). I think our configuration was a little soft to a resolved Batterskull. Stifle can keep them from searching for it and Abrupt Decay can take out the Germ, but these I found were not as winning lines as I would have hoped. For those plays to work, you must be really getting after their life total. John and I talked about the deck after the event a bit on how to improve the Batterskull problem. Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim were the options that were coming up with. Overall I ended 8-4-1 for the weekend having gone 3-1 in the Legacy Open Trail on Saturday. I have really liked playing the deck but I don't have as much experience as John does with it. What I will say is that coming from a RUG background, this deck plays in a very similar fashion. It can be just as explosive but has the tools (Confidant and Deathrite) to go long or come back from really poor/stalled game states.

It really comes down to personal preference when we consider the Stifle versus Hymn to Tourach debate. Same goes for the Dark Confidant versus Tombstalker debate. I think recent events show that the core of this deck is strong enough that you can play either slant and be successful.

Hey Guys,
on Friday I played a lot of testgames with boarding etc against Sneak Show, DnT, Lands & Team America in our local shop for the upcoming GP in Paris.

This was the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catcacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Qlique

Testpartner 1: Sneak Show
I lost 0:2 even if I had 1 FoW 1 Pierce & 1 Daze in hand but he landed enough lands to play around the taxing counter and had a FoW on his own, my cantrips found no pressure and I lost finally :rolleyes: Was really frustrating...
In: +3 Spell Pierce + 2 Envelop + 1 Clique + 2 Charm
Out: -4 Abrupt Decay -2 Tombstalker -1 Bayou -1 Hymn (Otd)

Testpartner 2: Sneak Show :wink:
I won 4:0 and had good draws with early pressure + counter/discard. I really missed Pithing Needle in such games against Sneak Attack -> Would have been much easier with needle, mostly because if he has enough mana available he can cast & activate Sneak Attack without me doing anything productiv even with grip or charm in hand because of priority etc.
Lilis are nice to have here MD but most of the time I got killed by Sneak Attack and the 2 Envelop were exactly for that reason not soo great. Got the axe even if they`re great against Miracles and Elves.

Same boarding plan

Testpartner 3: Death n Taxes
I won 4:3 after a 3:0 start. Hymn & Lili felt quite clunky at the beginning but they had they're cons too. In one game Disfigure and TS would have been much better but all in all they were quite solid and after boarding the MU is much more easy with 3 Charm 3 Disfigure 1 Grip 1 Clique. Sometimes BS was the only problem and having only 1 Grip as a answer was a bit low especially if the whole Tier 1 decks are playing it. Maybe +1 Grip in the SB
In: +3 Charm +3 Disfigure +1 Grip +1 Clique
Out: -4 FoW -1 Stalker -1 Delver -1 Daze -1 Hymn I think

Testpartner 4: Lands
I got crushed with 1:3! I knew its a bad MU but well. ..
Only way to win here is a fast DS start compared with Daze/FoW/Pierce for his Exploration/Manabond/Loam start and a couple of wastelands.
I had not really effectiv cards to bring in here, only Pierce, Clique, Charm and Envelop to counter/Destroy his explosive starts or destroy his early enchantments. My only GY hate (Cages) do nothing here :rolleyes: Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical would have been better/great but they`re are not so flexible like cages)
In: +2 Golgari Charm +2 Envelop +3 Spell Pierce +1 Clique
Out: -2 Liliana -2 Tombstalker -4 Daze (Otd) -4 Hymn (Otp) I think

Testpartner 5: BG NicFit
I played 2:4 or so. ..Another bad MU :-(
Here were the Hymns & Charms & Tombstalkers very good. But its a really grindy MU and he has more removal as I play creatures I think.
Deed and Grave Titan are bitches!
In: +3 Spell Pierce +2 Cages (Against flashback with Explorer & his 4 Zenith´s) +3 Charm (Against Deed & Decay)
Out: -4 FoW (Otp) -4 Daze (Otd) 2 Liliana -1 Bayou -1 AD I think

Testpartner 6: Team America (with TNN)
Here I won 2:1.
Well its a material war but Hymns, Stalkers & Lilis were great. Boarded out here - 4 FoW -1 Delver -1 Daze and added +3 Disfigure + 2 Charm (to handle TNN, negate AD or destroy Sylvan) and +1 V.Clique. Spell Pierce could be ok but it was late and not sure.
In: +3 Disfigure +1 Vendilion Clique +2 Charm (against TNN, Sylvan or AD)
Out: -4 FoW -1 Daze -1 Delver

All in all the deck felt quite good and very flexible but Im thinking of a 2nd copie of Krosan Grip & Vendilion Clique and 2 copies of Pithing Needle in the SB, especially against Sneak Attack and UW Miracles (Top/Jace) which is very popular atm. The 2 Envelop got cutted because the 2 Needles are good against Miracles too and the elves MU is quite good after boarding with 3 Charm 3 Disfigure and 2 Cages, I think.

The 2 Stalker & 4th Goyf were much better than the 3 TNN`s. Goyf was in all games a 5/6 6/7 monster beast and Stalker is such a fast flying fattie monster, really fast clock with the guys.
The 2 Lilis were quite nice but I think its a really flexible slot which can easily be a Slyvan or Disfiure/Dismember.
Hymn vs. Thoughtseize, well I had results were the Hymns were nuts but I had situations where TS would have been much faster, easier to cast and reliable than Hymn, especially if I had only 2 lands in play but ok...

So SB looks now like that:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle (Against Top, Jace, Sneak Attack, Vial etc)
2 Grafdiggers Cage (too good against Elves, Reanimator & Dredge)
1 Krosan Grip (maybe a 2nd against mainly Top & Batterskull...)
1 Vendilion Clique (maybe a 2nd against all sorts of Combo and SFM Decks)

Dont know really what to cut, maybe 1 Charm 1 Disfigure or 1 Cage??

Hi guys!

I'm considering picking up this deck, main reasons being the ones that Bob Huang wrote in his latest article. I'm wondering though if there is a write-up how to sideboard or generally just how to play the deck (I tried youtube but didn't really find anything. I am particulary interested how to play vs grindier match-ups such as punishing jund or miracles.

If I take my list above I would board like that:

Against Punishing Jund:

In: +3 Disfigure +2 Pierce +2 Charm
Out: -4 FoW - 2 Daze (Otd) -1 Daze (Otp) -1 Delver

Against UW Miracles:

In: +3 Pierce +1 Grip +2 Needles +1 Clique, Maybe +2 Charm (Against CB, RIP, Supreme Verdict)
Out: -4 Daze (Because a good Miracles player will play around it and land in the first 3-4 turns only lands and cantrips) -2 Tombstalker (Because of RIP & Jace bounce and Clique is better than Stalker in that MU) 1 Bayou

Not 100 % sure but I think its a good basic sideboard strategy...

For those of you who have SCG Premium, Drew Levin wrote an article today on Team America (he calls it BUG Delver... ugh) and how he advocates for the Nemesieze list over the Hymnstalker list. He argues this mostly on the merits of Thoughtseize over Hymn to Tourach rather than TNN over Tombstalker. He makes some good points, but in his appraisal of the TNN/Thoughtseize list I think he neglects to mention the potency of a one-sided Golgari Charm, which is one of the biggest reasons to play Team in the first place IMO.

Having said that, I might switch to a "Thoughtstalker" version of the deck just to try it out.

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Originally Posted by Grand Superior

For those of you who have SCG Premium, Drew Levin wrote an article today on Team America (he calls it BUG Delver... ugh) and how he advocates for the Nemesieze list over the Hymnstalker list. He argues this mostly on the merits of Thoughtseize over Hymn to Tourach rather than TNN over Tombstalker. He makes some good points, but in his appraisal of the TNN/Thoughtseize list I think he neglects to mention the potency of a one-sided Golgari Charm, which is one of the biggest reasons to play Team in the first place IMO.

Having said that, I might switch to a "Thoughtstalker" version of the deck just to try it out.

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I dont like TNN over Stalker anymore, I had the same thoughts at the beginning but how you said a one sided Golgari Charm is huge against a lot of decks and with a Stalker list we dont care about all these TNN hate against us simply because we dont play him! Plus Stalker is a much faster clock and costs most of the time only 2 mana and not like TNN 3 mana.
Plus he has some nice little bonus ability in blocking opposing Delvers, Cliques, Serra Avengers or Flickerwhisps which sometimes can be relevant in protecting your Liliana or your lifepoints.

Thoughtseize over Hymn. Well I played both lists now and I think in most parts Lewin has right. In my playtesting a lot of the time the Hymn felt very clunky and discarded not very important stuff (ok a couple of times they were great but not many times), especially against DnT. Or I cant cast it against a 4 lands Sneak Show board with me only having 2 lands with one FoW + pitch and pierce, simply because my enemie could having easily a Pierce or Brainstorm or Misdirection to protect his hand/hide his goodies (he had about 5-6 cards in hand and all mana open with 2 fetches) and I cant play my pierce when he goes of because Im tapped out and have only FoW as protection which should not be a problem for him to counter with an additional Pierce FoW or Red Blast next turn.
TS would have been better here because I could played it for one mana + had the option to counter his combo piece with Pierce & FoW. In another game where I played against DnT he made T2 SFM into BS and I could not play Hymn because of Sea & Trop and even if so I had very little chances to hit BS. Later in the game BS broke my neck and I lost because I could not handle it in the long game. T1 Seize T 2 Goyf/Delver or T1 Shaman T2 TS + Goyf just feels so good.
Against Control decks like NicFit or Miracles or punishing Jund Hymn is simply better because its a material war and a fight for resources but against combo decks or SFM decks TS is much better.
Both discard spells have their pros & cons and are good at what they're made for but attack different decks types.

For me TNN sure not, TS maybe depending on the meta.

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Originally Posted by Grand Superior

For those of you who have SCG Premium, Drew Levin wrote an article today on Team America (he calls it BUG Delver... ugh) and how he advocates for the Nemesieze list over the Hymnstalker list. He argues this mostly on the merits of Thoughtseize over Hymn to Tourach rather than TNN over Tombstalker. He makes some good points, but in his appraisal of the TNN/Thoughtseize list I think he neglects to mention the potency of a one-sided Golgari Charm, which is one of the biggest reasons to play Team in the first place IMO.

Having said that, I might switch to a "Thoughtstalker" version of the deck just to try it out.

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I've tested this and came to the opposite conclusion.

Lets put this in context.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Primer.html

Stifle was played in the optimal RUG lists.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Complete.html

Young pyromancer is not as good as bob, sfm, goyf or snapcaster.

Absolutely test for yourself but take these articles with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

Thoughtseize over Hymn. Well I played both lists now and I think in most parts Lewin has right. In my playtesting a lot of the time the Hymn felt very clunky and discarded not very important stuff (ok a couple of times they were great but not many times), especially against DnT. Or I cant cast it against a 4 lands Sneak Show board with me only having 2 lands with one FoW + pitch and pierce, simply because my enemie could having easily a Pierce or Brainstorm or Misdirection to protect his hand/hide his goodies (he had about 5-6 cards in hand and all mana open with 2 fetches) and I cant play my pierce when he goes of because Im tapped out and have only FoW as protection which should not be a problem for him to counter with an additional Pierce FoW or Red Blast next turn.
TS would have been better here because I could played it for one mana + had the option to counter his combo piece with Pierce & FoW. In another game where I played against DnT he made T2 SFM into BS and I could not play Hymn because of Sea & Trop and even if so I had very little chances to hit BS. Later in the game BS broke my neck and I lost because I could not handle it in the long game. T1 Seize T 2 Goyf/Delver or T1 Shaman T2 TS + Goyf just feels so good.
Against Control decks like NicFit or Miracles or punishing Jund Hymn is simply better because its a material war and a fight for resources but against combo decks or SFM decks TS is much better.
Both discard spells have their pros & cons and are good at what they're made for but attack different decks types.

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I think in Paris I'll be playing a 3/2 Hymn/TS split main with Vendilion Clique being in the 2nd flexslot. Like that you have a good mixture of pointed discard and raw power, you run less 2cc spells and Clique provides another clock when it comes to racing Nemesis. The 4th Hymn goes to the SB of course to fight Jund and socalled fair decks.
I'll definitely play trials on friday though, to make final adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

T1 Seize T 2 Goyf/Delver or T1 Shaman T2 TS + Goyf just feels so good.

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Honestly, T1 Shaman T2 Hymn + Waste seems to me even more powerful, considering Hymn could hit another land and possibly win the game alone.

I don't think Thoughtseize is good for tempo strategy, so I guess I'll keep using Hymn as long as I wanna play Team America the aggressive way (as it should be played imho).
We wanna punch the opponent hard, and Thoughtseize is not a punch, Hymn is.

Of course there will be occasions where Thoughtseize would be better, but that's not an argument: even Scavenging Ooze sometimes is better than Goyf, but Canadian keeps playing Goyf because it's best most of the time.
I think the same logic should be applied to Team America: which is best for us most of the time between Hymn and Thoughtseize?

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Honestly, T1 Shaman T2 Hymn + Waste seems to me even more powerful, considering Hymn could hit another land and possibly win the game alone.

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I think these sequences are both really good. But when I think about Patriot's 7-8 1cc spotremoval main I don't think it's helpful to let these dream-openers determine our decisions and I don't think we should rely tooo much on DRS. Spell Pierce is so heavily played right now that I tend to board out 1-2 hymns on the draw against decks that run it. Plus, I'd rather Thoughtseize their Swords to Plowshares/Submerge away before casting my Tombstalker than rely on random discard in that case. When your threads stick, Team America punshes even harder.

Personally; drew preferring tnn and seize make me feel comfortable running ts and htt.
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.
Even in hindsight..

To you people who talk about 4 htt -> 3-2 spit w/seize:
Is liliana n2 or sylvan taking the hit for the 5th discard?
I am not agreeing/disagreeing yet, but I would like to know are you cutting lands, cantrips, 2nd stalker or what to fit the 5th in?
That is the configuration I ran when I picked the deck up, but later converted to running cards that help long games in the last 2 flex slots.
Also, has anyone ran ctp over the 4th sea?
I'm regretting having not tried to push the manabase more in my testing - but I have not felt like I needed to either.

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Originally Posted by deviant

Personally; drew preferring tnn and seize make me feel comfortable running ts and htt.
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.
Even in hindsight..

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Totally agreed :D

The Thoughtseize replaces my Dismember main, but I don't know yet if I'll miss a 1cc removal main. This was mainly dedicated to mom, opposing DRS and Bob but I have the feeling that these have become less important than SFM/Nemesis.
I think everything discussed here is highly depending on everyone's playstyle btw. I never liked Lili mainboard at all, for example, but people having success with multiple of them and thus playing more midrangey makes me wonder if my approach is still viable.

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Originally Posted by deviant

Personally; drew preferring tnn and seize make me feel comfortable running ts and htt.
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.
Even in hindsight..

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Totally agreed :D

The Thoughtseize replaces my Dismember main, but I don't know yet if I'll miss a 1cc removal main. This was mainly dedicated to mom, opposing DRS and Bob but I have the feeling that these have become less important than SFM/Nemesis.
I think everything discussed here is highly depending on everyone's playstyle btw. I never liked Lili mainboard at all, for example, but people having success with multiple of them and thus playing more midrangey makes me wonder if my approach is still viable.

As much as I love Drew Levin's articles I think I need to go with Bob akasuki on this one simple because I know he has played the deck WAY more than Drew has.

Todd Anderson once wrote that Legacy is the worst format for Thoughtseize because Legacy is sooooo consistent. The presence of Ponder Brainstorm makes it much more likely for the opponent to just find another piece and continue on. Hymn generates card advantage, plain and simple. It puts your opponent down a card on you. In the past few months that I've been playing the deck I cannot count the number of sad dejected faces when I play a Hymn to Tourach. I think there might even be a mental advantage to it. When people get hit with a hymn they feel like they've already lost. Let em think it I say.

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Originally Posted by BennBeckmann

I think in Paris I'll be playing a 3/2 Hymn/TS split main with Vendilion Clique being in the 2nd flexslot. Like that you have a good mixture of pointed discard and raw power, you run less 2cc spells and Clique provides another clock when it comes to racing Nemesis. The 4th Hymn goes to the SB of course to fight Jund and socalled fair decks.
I'll definitely play trials on friday though, to make final adjustments.

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I will play some trials on Friday at Paris too, then we will see how the final list will look like but for the moment I will try the 4 Hymn 2 Lili list only because I have trust in people who are more experienced with this deck.
Maybe I will change the discard package after the trials, lets see...

Sure Drew Lewins article is not the "Holy bible of Legacy" and I will not take this too serious which he writes but he has some good arguments between TS & Hymn which I basically see the same way. But I will trust more those people who tested THIS deck over month or years than a pro which played it maybe a couple of games for sure.

How does your current SB look like? Would be interesting to see.

Greetings

My SB underlies constant changes, but I'd go for this more or less:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hymn to Tourach

Not sure if the 4th Hymn is really necessary and neither if I should rather play Pulse over Grip.

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Originally Posted by Thorhammer

In the past few months that I've been playing the deck I cannot count the number of sad dejected faces when I play a Hymn to Tourach. I think tyhere might even be a mental advantage to it. When people get hit with a hymn they feel like they've already lost.

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Exactly: sometimes the expression on your opponent's face tells you how strong the card you just played is.
The reaction on a resolved Tourach is usually way more desperate than on a resolved Thoughtseize.

Don't get me wrong: I love Thoughtseize and I play the full set in my Jund list: it's just I don't think it fits TA strategy more than Tourach.

So the debate continues… unfortunately it is hard to honestly compare the two cards from situation to situation, because they are so different. I think this is something that comes from lots and lots of testing. In the end I think that there are metas where one is better than the other, but the largest determining factor will comfort with the game plan associated with either of the two strategies. Should this be true, I feel like both camps should stop bantering about one being superior than the other. But then of course what else would we talk about ;]

I don't think it's only a "meta" decision, it's something that involves the deck in itself and the way we wanna play it.

Thoughtseize, despite being very strong in certain matchups, it's not a "tempo" card: it doesn't give any advantage, and usually takes us slightly behind in exchange of removing the best card from their hand. It doesn't affect board position and it's not a threat.
It's clearly a "control" card, very strong for midrange or control strategies, like Jund or Esper: decks which can play the long game and grind out victories in the late game if needed.

Our deck, on the other hand, has to win relatively fast and play its threats early to establish advantage and then keeping it for as long we need to finish the opponent.
Free counters are very synergistic with this plan, as well as Tourach: counters keep opponent's early threats and removal away for the first turns, while Tourach improves the advantage we already have established in the beginning.

I don't see how turn 1 Thoughtseize can help our plan to be honest: we just made a 1 for 1 without sticking anything on the board, and now it's our opponent who has the chance of taking an advantage on us.
We really want to play that Shaman or that Delver in our first turn, because in most cases we are the aggressor and we wanna apply pressure on opponent.

The only scenarios where I can see Thoughtseize being better than Tourach are:
1) playing it after a resolved Mystic to take away the equipment
2) A+B combo decks like S&T and Reanimator

The n° 1 scenario is a bit odd because we should keep our Thoughtseize in hand until they play Mystic, but Thoughtseize usually is a turn 1 play, and how can we know if the opponent is playing Stoneblade / DnT before our first turn?

And even in these scenarios, a turn 2 Tourach can be game-breaking as well.

Again, I'm not saying Tourach is better than Thoughtseize in a vacuum because it wouldn't be honest: in most cases and for most decks Thoughtseize is the best choice and the right turn 1 play.
It's just I don't see how Thoughtseize fits our strategy at all.

But I'm talking about the "standard" TA with Stalker and no Stifle; maybe the Confidant - Stifle version can put the Thoughtseize to better use.
The fact is: if I had to play Confidant and Thoughtseize and go for the midrange strategy, I'd probably choose Jund over Team America because it's better equipped for that plan.

I agree with most of what you said and I don't wanna be the one who argues for Thoughtseize and then end up playing the full set of Hymn again- I'm not sure myself if it's wise to play only three hymn.
But the reason for me to split is not to have another turn one play, but to have more options on turn two. I often find myself turn 2 with DRS out and only 2cc spells + lands in hand. In that case the T1 DRS is kind of meh. Other people approach this problem by splitting Decay/ Disfigure main and thus smoothening their curve. Now the question arises what's more relevant- discard or removal.
Besides, we're still playing three hymn main, so it's not like we'd abandon that plan, which you have very described very well, at all.

The reason for me to bother you people with this is that I just don't know which way to go. I found the above mentioned case to be a weakness of the deck, so I'm looking for insight to improve it.