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Not BUG/TA, but some of the Nic Fit decks. It's a long shot either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
Stopping all aspects of the UW deck (Top, Jace, SFM/Batterskull, Mishra's Factory) seems more relevant than just Tops and Affinity. Also against Maverick.
I still think Needle has more applications than Null Rod.
Needle will always have more applications.. It can name nonartifacts.
But null rod can shut off multiple cards at the same time vs uw; jitte,top, e.e, relic, batterskull, sofnf. Its like why ppl play jace belerin in sbs, it's another angle.
Now might be a good time to revive Punishing Fire! It's a sweet recurring answer for BUG and all the other fair match-ups out there. Obviously, if you're playing vs. BUG, try to hold it and save it for their DRS (which is usually the first card they play anyways).
Here's my list:
// Lands
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [INN] Delver of Secrets
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
Went 3-0 at my local last night with the same list as last time. I played:
BUG Midrange (2-0) - He drew poorly and my Wastes were good, Goose was gold.
Miracleblade (2-1) - Goose got there for the two games I won.
BUG Midrange (2-1) - He seriously misplayed and I should not have won, but sometimes your opponents just aren't very good.
Despite beating BUG twice last night, it has been a huge problem for me in testing. They can answer our Tarmogoyfs but we can't answer theirs, Deathrite has to die on sight, and their Wastelands are better than ours. The format is so attrition based currently that RUG is in a much weaker spot. However it is pretty obvious that a slow, grindy format is ripe to be preyed on so I doubt that this state of affairs will last long.
Any thoughts on additional sideboard cards against BUG? Sylvan Library is the best thing I have found and Submerge is almost always good (unless they are on the extreme control end of the spectrum) but beyond that everything seems lackluster. I have thought of trying Price of Progress because they run so few counters. I have been on the fence about bringing in Pyroblast against them because it often does very little. Also there is so much variation in the builds that finding one specific weakness to attack can be a challenge.
Cards that can be problematic for BUG:Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
-Grim Lavamancer is a threat that can kill off Deathrites if they don't answer it quickly, and also provide some reach if the board gets stalled.
-Divert or Misdirection can redirect discard spells back at their owner, or swing an Abrupt Decay onto one of their own permanents.
-Sylvan Library and Ancestral Visions can provide you some long-term card advantage and are useful since these games will tend to go longer.
-Vendilion Clique doubles as a threat, disruption, and typically works as a Planeswalker-assassin.
-Plaxmanta counters removal and is also an instant-speed threat.
-Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker can cut them off of planeswalkers or Shaman.
-Life from the Loam -- Wastelock is still a relevant angle of attack.
I think the approach should be to play like a pseudo-Zoo deck, dropping threat after threat. BUG mostly relies on one-for-one removal, and unlike UWx Miracles does not typically run sweeper spells. So if you brought in additional creatures to go along with the ones already in the maindeck, eventually you could get a threat down that they can't answer and you win that way. Maybe 2 Lavamancer, 1 Clique, 2 Plaxmanta would be a good start.
The key here is that RUG needs flexible answers because there are too many tough MUs to dedicate your SB entirely to one archetype. Out of your list the only things that I really object to are Divert, Misdirection, and Plaxmanta. Both Divert and Misdirection are "best case scenario" kind of cards that can lead to blowouts if your opponent has the mana or counters your Misdirection. Plaxmanta is just too narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I could see something like:
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast/REB
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
1-2 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge
1-2 Flex Slots
I think 2 Sylvan Library is probably the correct number given how good they are against other blue decks and because they help you dig for your singletons. This board addresses BUG/Miracles/Stoneblade and random aggro pretty well, but it loses to GY strategies and is soft to combo (can't have everything).
Edit: Now that I think about it, I am little less sure about the Grim Lavamancers. There are pretty mana intensive and it isn't super hard for BUG to waste you off red. They also have poor synergy with Mongoose which is your best threat in the MU (at least before an opposing Tarmogoyf resolves). However they will probably kill everything they can on sight and a ton of stuff hits the yard in this MU so it might not be the worst.
Placed 46th at GP: Denver today.
Decklist:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Krosan Grip
1 Envelop
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Snare
1 Sulfur Elemental
Rounds 1-3: Byes (won a grinder Friday night)
Round 4 - BUG (Dark Confidant, Lilianas)- 1-2
Round 5 - TES - 1-2
Round 6 - SneakShow - 2-1
Round 7 - BUG (Dark Confidant) - 2-1
Round 8 - BUG Delver - 2-0
Round 9 - RUG Delver - 2-1
Round 10 - BUG (Dark Confidant) - 2-0
Round 11 - Esper Stoneblade - 0-2
Round 12 - Death and Taxes - 2-1
Round 13 - SneakShow - 0-2
Round 14 - Burn - 2-0
Congrats on the finish, Jason.
I went SCG Columbus this weekend and played the list I suggested a couple of pages back with the following sideboard:
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Krosan Grip
The Grim Lavamancer was experimental, otherwise everything was pretty straightforward. Played 4 Stifle, 4 Snare, no Pierce in the maindeck, but should have hedged better against combo, so my tunnel vision punished me against what I thought a package of 6 1cc counters would help against. It didn't. Finished 6-3 in what was an incredibly disappointing weekend with two mediocre finishes and 7 rounds total played against friends (knocking them out each time).
Matchups were:
R1 L Omni Tell 0-2
R2 W Pox 2-1
R3 W UR Delver 2-1
R4 W Maverick, conley1000000 2-0
R5 W ANT, Arew 2-1
R6 W Burn 2-0
R7 L Omni Tell 0-2
R8 L ANT 0-2
R9 W Walking Dead 2-0
Main issues against Omni Tell were what originally playing Sylvan Library in the maindeck and Flusterstorm in the sideboard solved: redundant copies of Show and Tell and losing the counterwar. Game ones I would have to get lucky to survive, but that was not the case for either round. I could go on all day about bad beats, but the truth is my 75 wasn't equipped to consistently beat combo.
I have some ideas going forward but I haven't seen the cards I want to play perform outside of their niches, so we'll see.
Sylvan Library was the card that saved my ass against my Show and Tell opponent. I ended two of the games at 3 life, having paid between 12-16 to draw extra cards. I def wouldn't want to cut Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
Did you get a chance to check out Saito's top 16 RUG list from GP Denver? It looked pretty solid and had a mix of Pierce and Snare that seems good going forward. He also ran 2 Thoughtscour, which might be worth it to help keep Mongoose robust in a format full of Shaman.
Also, I don't really agree with you regarding Chain Lightning over Forked Bolt. Yes, the difference is moot against Shamans, but with combo Elves and Esper Blade on the rise I think you'd really want the utility. And I have always found that in many games, Forked bolt actually does more damage since you can ping the opponent as well as kill their creature.
Either way, Delver and Daze don't seem particularly exciting if more people jump on the midrange train. Jund and other cascade variants give tempo decks headaches with all that card advantage.
Thanks Mark :D
I think that Spell Snare is pretty well positioned, but I don't know if it warrants 3 or 4 MD. Spell Pierce just offers far more versatility in the matchups where you want a counterspell. I included the Spell Snare in the SB because it definitely is a very good card right now, but yeah, Show and Tell is a miserable matchup when you have Spell Snares in the deck :/
@wcm8: Thought Scour is pretty good against Deathrite. I tested it for a little bit and sure, Deathrites will ding you for 2 damage or whatever (they're gonna do it with or without Thought Scour anyway), but Thought Scour insures threshold for Mongoose and makes Deathrite far worse since they can't block Mongoose profitably. I wanted to find a way to put Thought Scours into my deck for Denver but wasn't really willing to give up anything in my decklist.
Mark as I followed your twitter account and your comments here about your losses vs Omni Tell I think that it was also a bit unlucky. Your list is not bad vs combo. Perhaps you can replace one Spell Pierce and one Envelop in the SB with 2 Flusterstorms - but heads up, your list is really solid and good.
One Question: Did Grim Lavamancer shine or was the anti-synergy with Nimble Mongoose distracting?
You can stop sucking up to him, he admitted 4 Snare isn't good against Omnitell/combo. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Flusterstorm will probably make another appearance in the sideboard. Some of the games I lost were mulligans where I'd board in 6 1cc counters and open a hand with 4 lands, Goyf, Bolt, Mongoose, and so forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
I drew Lavamancer only once against Walking Dead, so it's hard to comment on. It was definitely powerful enough that I couldn't lose once it resolved and/or was protected. I have always disliked Thought Scour but if I play both Lavamancer/Mongoose then Scour will have to be in the deck to support them. With Elves just winning, Lavamancer is pretty good with a pile of x/2's in their deck.
I have a smaller tournament this weekend, perhaps I'll try some off-the-wall ideas to see where this list could stretch.
I'm curious about your gained experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
RUG made 4 Top 16 appearances in the SCG Open San Diego and BUG was not even represented on the final tables. Furthermore RUG won vs Jund in the semi finals. So we can see that Canadian is still a really great deck and perhaps still the best in the format.
Grim Lavamancers are everywhere in the lists now. This is a bit surprising as Nimble is harmed by that.
Grim Lavamancer is actually pretty great against Jund. It kills Deathrite, Bob, opposing Lavamancers, BBE, (sometimes early on) Goyf, and provides a buffer against Liliana edict effects as well as the potential to kill her as well. It's a -must answer- card for a lot of decks, which if unanswered provides a ton of utility. And if it does get killed, well at least they spent the removal on Lavamancer instead of on a Delver or Goyf. I agree that it is pretty non-bo with Goose, but the power of a turn 1 Lavaman shouldn't be understated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
This past weeked I played Shardless BUG at a local tournament and wrecked face in the Swiss. However, my first round opponent in the Top 8 was on RUG and just wrecked me with Divert. This card is realllllllllllllly good against Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, and Ancestral Visions. He had some pretty lucky hands otherwise, but Divert was definitely the card that lost me the match. If you're slinging RUG and thing BUG decks may be present, definitely consider Divert.
Was actually going to attend the same tournament as wcm8, but had a last minute trip to GP Atlantic City.Quote:
Originally Posted by haloquaero
I was thinking on the car ride, however, what is an optimal way to balance: (1) Mongoose Threshold, (2) Lavamancer Activations, (3) Opposing Deathrite Shamans? That is still a puzzle to me, for the most part.
I'm still confused what all the fuss is about with nimble and grim interactions. Goose is great where we want him to be great (miracles) and grim is great where we want him to be great (BUG) and these cards are bad when we expect them to be bad. I'm in the camp that goyf is currently the worst card in the deck. I watched several rug players tap out for goyf, only to lose on their next turn with snare/pierce in hand. Seems to me that we cut the 4th goyf, put in a grim, run 7 burn and be done with the discussion. Did anyone see that rug player absolutely wreck bug by attacking their mana base? Seems to me we need to be more focused on that aspect than this one.
On another boggling note, I still don't see why so many people still run scavenging ooze. Just me I guess.
Meh maybe i'm missing something, but I'm in the camp with Mark, goyf is the worst card here, stop kidding ourselves and adapt!
To the latest SCG Open results for RUG Tempo: Love to hear that!
It's kinda interesting Kurt Samson ran 2 Copies of Izzet Charm in the main - always a card in crossfire, but it is definately a bit of all right like Divert and Ooze do in certain situations.
Completely agree what was said about Lavamancer and (the) Goyf(count).
So far I feel pretty good with 1 Lavamancer, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 4 Bolt, 1 Snapcaster, 2 Thought Scour Main.
Quite thrilling these days in Legacy corner :)
Ooze does have the added bonus of fighting opposing Deathrite Shamans, as realistic or unrealistic as it seems to reach that scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpinAintEasy
The plan of both Mongoose/Lavamancer pre-board into boarding either one out post-board is actually an elegant solution. I may return to Thought Scour to support either half of that plan.