[Deck] Elves Combo

In the Burn matchup, it really depends on how the opponent plays against you.

If they burn your creatures, that gives you a lot of time to get a solid Glimpse or NO/fattie going. Save Ooze until you can activate it several times to both regain life and get it out of burn range. Timing is also important, as you're going to need to distract your opponent with many dorks so you run down his options, then slam an Ooze and make it a 5/5 or 6/6 immediately.

Admittedly, it's easier against a mono-red Burn since they don't have countermagic.

I have a couple friends who play UR Delver all the time. I have found the matchup very favorable. Because of the nature of their deck, it can be difficult for them to both 1) burn all of our dudes and 2) keep enough cards in hand to fight our Glimpse/NO. That said, Scavenging Ooze is a great help out of the board. And when you do finally NO>Hoof them, it is usually from a precariously low life total. Note: If all your dudes need to not be summoning sick in order to make mana, that definitely makes the matchup worse. The closest and scariest games happen when they just ignore my board and aim fire at my face. When racing, we are about .5-1 turns faster than them. If they just keep blasting our dudes, well, we run more dudes than they have burn, usually. And resolving Visionary can keep us ahead in cards. Your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Exactly. The fact Shaman stays in play after it has done its business is a big deal. It can be picked up with Symbiote, like danyul said, and it can tap for mana with Heritage later on.

It's for that same reason, I may want to try Harmonic Sliver over Pridemage in the sideboard. I didn't really use Pridemage to any meaningful degree at my last tournament, but it could be a relevant swap.

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I recently cut priest for shaman too. Zealot costs 4 mana (including activation) instead of 3. Shaman also beats cursed totem whereas zealot does not. Being able to flashback cabal therapy to it is also a nice bonus (i.e. against belcher, stoneblade).

UR burn hasn't been a problem for me either. The only problematic card is grim lavamancer. I bring in abrupt decay to solve that problem. As stated above, scavenging ooze is a gamebreaker too.

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Originally Posted by Koby

I'm guessing that the UR delver matchup is more defined by Delver + countermagic and some spot removal moreso than just burning you out.

If that's the case, NO/Pro is unlikely to help here, as even Progenitus is too slow against burn, and exposing Natural Order against their Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will pushes you more into losing board presence. I recommend you focus on beatdown/aggro and attempting to put a Scavenging Ooze on the field. Once he's in, you can start to regain life and make a big threat.

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I too found out that Ooze is a MVP here.

Koby, do you side out all of your NOs on this MU? (And what about the fatties?)

Taking my list on my last post as reference, what do you think of the following SB plan against UR Delver:

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Originally Posted by SB Plan for UR Delver

-2 NO
-1 Progenitus (he was maindeck)

+1 Ooze (this is Ooze #2, since Ooze #1 was maindeck)
+2 Abrupt Decay (against Delvers and/or Lavamancers)

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(Note: I play a Crop Rotation MD, but I don't know if I cut the Needles from my SB - what I plan to do -, if there's still anything better to side in for the CR)

Even Grim Lavamancer isn't an autoloss. It can actually be difficult for them to keep the graveyard stocked sometimes. And if you can stick a Deathrite Shaman (dream scenario, I know) you can slow the bleeding a bit by forcing them to eat out of their GY at inopportune times, or limit the amount of gy fuel they have access to. They have to be very smart about what they spend their burn spells on.

@andre

I would go actually go -1 Visionary, -2nd Hoof (or Regal Force), -2nd Crop Rotation, +NO, +Prog, + Scooze. This obviously favors a different playstyle. I like the Prog because sometimes they bring in boardsweepers out of the side. I want inevitability on the table. I don't want to waste a turn and some mana by trying to shoot their guys with Abrupt Decay.

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

I too found out that Ooze is a MVP here.

Koby, do you side out all of your NOs on this MU? (And what about the fatties?)

Taking my list on my last post as reference, what do you think of the following SB plan against UR Delver:



(Note: I play a Crop Rotation MD, but I don't know if I cut the Needles from my SB - what I plan to do -, if there's still anything better to side in for the CR)

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Abrupt Decay seems unneeded, unless you anticipate Pyrostatic Pillar being a problem. Against this matchup I would recommend -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Regal Force; + Scavenging Ooze +X Thorn of Amethyst (if you have them) +x Thalia. Slowing them down with resistors is pretty good considering the low creature count they have.

I definitely agree thorns and thalias are great against burn. However, most standard elf lists don't currently run those in the board. I would board out viridian shaman, 1 heritage druid, and 1 regal force for 2x decay and 1 ooze. NO->prog feels a bit slow to me because you still give your opponent two turns (unlikely that they'll be under 10) to aim all their burn/lavamancers/delvers at you. Also, it's no guarantee you'll be able to resolve NO with the dazes, FoWs, and pierces/flusterstorms they run.

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Originally Posted by nudon

I definitely agree thorns and thalias are great against burn. However, most standard elf lists don't currently run those in the board. I would board out viridian shaman, 1 heritage druid, and 1 regal force for 2x decay and 1 ooze. NO->prog feels a bit slow to me because you still give your opponent two turns (unlikely that they'll be under 10) to aim all their burn/lavamancers/delvers at you. Also, it's no guarantee you'll be able to resolve NO with the dazes, FoWs, and pierces/flusterstorms they run.

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I think this is an error on the recent lists. Elves has good game against a variety of fair strategies and it doesn't need much padding to turn those matches into wins. Where it has trouble is against other Combo decks. The SB resistors help against spell-based mid-range (like EsperBlade) decks too.

I must agree with this, after piloting goblins against Elves I almost felt like it was an auto loss. Games against decks that play fair are to the favour of the elf player. Thinking about that I might change up my sideboard to remove Champion.

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Originally Posted by Koby

I think this is an error on the recent lists. Elves has good game against a variety of fair strategies and it doesn't need much padding to turn those matches into wins. Where it has trouble is against other Combo decks. The SB resistors help against spell-based mid-range (like EsperBlade) decks too.

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Elf decks these days take advantage of the black splash to board in Cabal Therapy in place of Thorn/Thalia. This is in addition to usually 2 Mindbreak Traps. Contemporary elf lists are stronger against combo than they used to be, which is part of what has provided for their recent success. Instead of trying to bog them down, we just ruin their hand and then watch them try to dig for another win condition. In such cases we usually get to our win condition first.

Of course if combo goes off turn 1 they still beat us, and it remains a hairier matchup than against fair decks. But this has always been true for any non-blue deck like elves.

Yes, play 4 Therapy and 2 MBT, but you can also fit Thorn in your sideboard. You just don't play Decay, which was the easiest cut from my board.

During my third round at STL, I didn't bring in Bog against ANT, but do you guys think I should have? It felt like I'd be playing for very small percentages so I didn't. From this sb...

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

...I brought in the top 8 cards.

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Originally Posted by Lobo

Elf decks these days take advantage of the black splash to board in Cabal Therapy in place of Thorn/Thalia. This is in addition to usually 2 Mindbreak Traps. Contemporary elf lists are stronger against combo than they used to be, which is part of what has provided for their recent success. Instead of trying to bog them down, we just ruin their hand and then watch them try to dig for another win condition. In such cases we usually get to our win condition first.

Of course if combo goes off turn 1 they still beat us, and it remains a hairier matchup than against fair decks. But this has always been true for any non-blue deck like elves.

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I'm well aware of that strategy considering West Coast Degeneracy has developed it going back as far as 2011 to fight all the combo.
Example #1 - oh hey look that's me!
Example #2 - oh hey look that's Joe!
Example #3 - oh hey look another SoCal player!
Example #4 - oh hey look another SoCal player!

The newest incarnation has also kept the black splash in running Deathrite Shaman. I piloted a non-Natural Order list to a 6-2 finish at the SCG LA Invitational last December. I'm no stranger to Cabal Therapy, and realize that it's not enough on its own. Thorns are better than Mindbreak Trap against every deck that doesn't kill you on turn 1; which should be a miracle if you win. ANT/TES/Tin Fins already have ways to disable Mindbreak Trap so it is not as useful there (Silence, discard). Ritual based Storm already knows to play around such a spell too. Including Mindbreak Trap is both lazy and stupid.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Yes, play 4 Therapy and 2 MBT, but you can also fit Thorn in your sideboard. You just don't play Decay, which was the easiest cut from my board.

During my third round at STL, I didn't bring in Bog against ANT, but do you guys think I should have? It felt like I'd be playing for very small percentages so I didn't. From this sb...

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

...I brought in the top 8 cards.

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Bog is pretty weak with only Crop Rotation to tutor for it. I don't think it's a useful sideboard card. A second Scavenging Ooze is more worthwhile. Sylvan Library is likely also a wasted slot, and especially as a singleton. While it's bonkers insane when you draw it; that assumes too much has gone wrong with the game to make it relevant. Both of these slots can be upgraded to more useful slots. Thorns is definitely appealing in that it can be useful against BG/x and Miracle decks alive without worrying about sweepers. Thalia should likely replace the 2nd and 4th copy of Thorn of Amethysts to provide a variety of resisting effects.

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Originally Posted by Koby

...
The newest incarnation has also kept the black splash in running Deathrite Shaman. I piloted a non-Natural Order list to a 6-2 finish at the SCG LA Invitational last December.
...

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What your maindeck looked like without NO? I'm curious because I would like to sleeve elves but I don't own NO and I'm interessed in the downside/upside between the lists.

I'm sorry if it's already been discussed but in the last few pages I didn't find any reference.

Thank you!

If you click on "Example #1" in his post you will get one of his lists without NO.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Bog is pretty weak with only Crop Rotation to tutor for it. I don't think it's a useful sideboard card. A second Scavenging Ooze is more worthwhile. Sylvan Library is likely also a wasted slot, and especially as a singleton. While it's bonkers insane when you draw it; that assumes too much has gone wrong with the game to make it relevant. Both of these slots can be upgraded to more useful slots. Thorns is definitely appealing in that it can be useful against BG/x and Miracle decks alive without worrying about sweepers. Thalia should likely replace the 2nd and 4th copy of Thorn of Amethysts to provide a variety of resisting effects.

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Don't you ever have issues with the degenerate decks if you only use Ooze as hate? If we hope to win, most of the time those matches are going to three games and we're on the draw for the third game, which is a scary proposition if you can't get hate out until turn two with an accelerator and activate it on turn three. Or you draw it naturally and get one activation out of it before you give them three turns. I'm not attached to Bog at all, but something faster than strictly Ooze looks necessary. Ravenous Trap is basically the card I'm thinking about right now.

I apologize, but I don't follow what you're saying in bold. I get that one Thorn and one Thalia looks good, but what are you saying about the 4th copy of that effect?

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Originally Posted by Koby

Thorns are better than Mindbreak Trap against every deck that doesn't kill you on turn 1; which should be a miracle if you win. ANT/TES/Tin Fins already have ways to disable Mindbreak Trap so it is not as useful there (Silence, discard). Ritual based Storm already knows to play around such a spell too. Including Mindbreak Trap is both lazy and stupid.

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In my previous tournament experience, I beat ANT 2-0 on the back of therapy and eventual topdeck gsz->teeg (didn't draw MbT). However, I'm not opposed to swapping traps out for thorns due to their applications in other matchups. My concern is with those turn 1 decks you refer to. We can definitely beat belcher by outracing EtW or blowing up their belcher by tutoring for v. shaman/pridemage/sliver. How often does ANT/TES/Tin Fins attempt to go off turn 1 since we'll be on the draw for at least 1 sb game?

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Don't you ever have issues with the degenerate decks if you only use Ooze as hate? If we hope to win, most of the time those matches are going to three games and we're on the draw for the third game, which is a scary proposition if you can't get hate out until turn two with an accelerator and activate it on turn three. Or you draw it naturally and get one activation out of it before you give them three turns. I'm not attached to Bog at all, but something faster than strictly Ooze looks necessary. Ravenous Trap is basically the card I'm thinking about right now.

I apologize, but I don't follow what you're saying in bold. I get that one Thorn and one Thalia looks good, but what are you saying about the 4th copy of that effect?

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With two crop rotations, I'll typically board in bog too but I'm haven't played enough games with it to know for sure if that's correct. Koby is saying to have a 2-2 split to hedge against things like cabal therapy and echoing truth.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Quick n dirty SCG Invitational Report for the Legacy Portion!

Reference list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Llanowar Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid

2 Regal Forge
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ
1 Crop Rotation

4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Fetch
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest

SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver

Round 5 - Hive Mind (2-0) - making 10 mana and 3 of any color can help. Won with beatdown however.
Round 6 - Merfolk (2-0) - No FoW on Glimpse, so that was quick.
Round 7 - Shardless BUG (GerryT) (1-2) - Combo G1, grind out G2 and lost, grind out G3 and lost to Diabolic Machine (A.Visions x3 each a turn apart, missed on a short Glimpse chain into land land runner)
Round 8 - Jund (2-1) - Combo, grind, grind when opponent flooded and beatdown with Regal Forces.
Round 13 - BUG w/ Bob (1-2) - Grind and lost to Deathrite Shaman superiority. Combo G2. Grind and lost to Deathrite Shaman superiority.
Round 14 - RIP Miracles (2-1) - Oddly not at all hard anymore thanks to Deathrite Shaman. He gets Moat out, and I cast Emrakul. Did I mention that I missed the Extra turn trigger facing lethal damage? Ya, I was that guy! (opponent scooped tho). G2 get Angel beatdown. G3 grind with beatdown and DRS.
Round 15 - Maverick (2-1) - DRS > Maverick, esp with all the untap effects we have.
Round 16 - NO BUG (2-1) - DRS can grind it out, and since they play a lot of spells, it makes it easy to clock them.

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

What your maindeck looked like without NO? I'm curious because I would like to sleeve elves but I don't own NO and I'm interessed in the downside/upside between the lists.

I'm sorry if it's already been discussed but in the last few pages I didn't find any reference.

Thank you!

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If you click back on the original post from my quote you can see the list I can and feedback on it.

In regards to Thorn/Thalia split: Thalia is pretty much a freebie. While te effect and card type of Thorn is better (artifact) it gets progressively harder to cast multiple copies. Thalia still only costs 2 under Thorns while providing more resistance. If you want to run multiple thorns, every even copy should be swapped with Thalia to provide diversity.