[Primer/Deck] Pox

I took a list for a spin last night, went 1-2. Mostly won round 1 due to bad hands from Reanimator Depths, then lost to 4c Control and DnT 0-2. DnT I beat in an extra game, but effectively lost each round due to not being able to wipe out Vials or Shamans. Boards of like, landing a Crucible just after a Shaman hit, then more shamans and a Leovold joining the party, not being able to cleanly get through Strix to get walkers, or being locked out by Sanctum Prelate on 2. I think 2x Ratchet Bombs are definitely necessary. I liked the Tombstalkers definitely, and might consider the other Delve demon as extra removal.

I did bring in a Culling Scales that would have cleaned up the 4C game and had it wipe out DnT's board to seal that game.

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

I'm interested in the stock list :) Is it the one from http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16098&d=299201&f=LE ?



If you can also suggest a starting list, I'm all ears. Would that be the one you shared just a few posts before ?

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My list isn't stock by any means, but it has been testing very, very well (and yes it's the one I posted a few posts above.) Collective Brutality is the stone-cold nuts for pox, no doubt. Bitterblossom solves one of Pox's biggest problems: doing nothing for multiple turns in a row once the game is in a depressed state. BB just keeps on churning out tokens. It's cheap cost of only two mana lets you Dark Ritual > Discard > Bitterblossom t1. That is almost as good as t1 Liliana.

Contamination is a sideboard option I'm trying out, attempting to use it as a quasi-blood moon. So far I haven't wanted to board it in. Ironically, I went to BB because of Contamination, but now I think contamination isn't good enough lol.

EDIT: I am thinking that Tombstalker would actually be better than Nether Spirit. I am testing it out. It's a faster clock and there is literally no need for the graveyard beyond lands for Crucible.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

My list isn't stock by any means, but it has been testing very, very well (and yes it's the one I posted a few posts above.) Collective Brutality is the stone-cold nuts for pox, no doubt. Bitterblossom solves one of Pox's biggest problems: doing nothing for multiple turns in a row once the game is in a depressed state. BB just keeps on churning out tokens. It's cheap cost of only two mana lets you Dark Ritual > Discard > Bitterblossom t1. That is almost as good as t1 Liliana.

Contamination is a sideboard option I'm trying out, attempting to use it as a quasi-blood moon. So far I haven't wanted to board it in. Ironically, I went to BB because of Contamination, but now I think contamination isn't good enough lol.

EDIT: I am thinking that Tombstalker would actually be better than Nether Spirit. I am testing it out. It's a faster clock and there is literally no need for the graveyard beyond lands for Crucible.

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Tomby is in my sideboard for faster win cons in the games that they're desperately needed. I've found that Pox should be tuned to win in the areas where the enemy's chances are low. 3 turn combo decks usually can't win by turn 10. 15 turn control decks usually can't win on turn 5. I try to tune my win conditions and power output based on an opponent's 'weak turns'. For midrange, I either go super long (Nether Spirit) or super short (Tombstalker / Phyrexian Totem). Playing on your terms instead of theirs is the way to go.

My meta seems to be a lot more flush with creature mid range decks (Grixis Delver, DnT, Elves, 4C Leovold/DRS/Snapcaster, partially UR Delver) than any sort of combo or dedicated control (SnT, ANT, Burn, Lands).

Would it make more sense to tune Pox towards creature wipes, sac effects, and hand denial than mana denial? Basically if I should cut back on Sinkholes and increase Innocent Blood/Hymns/Scrolls and add main board Deluges/The Abyss.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

My meta seems to be a lot more flush with creature mid range decks (Grixis Delver, DnT, Elves, 4C Leovold/DRS/Snapcaster, partially UR Delver) than any sort of combo or dedicated control (SnT, ANT, Burn, Lands).

Would it make more sense to tune Pox towards creature wipes, sac effects, and hand denial than mana denial? Basically if I should cut back on Sinkholes and increase Innocent Blood/Hymns/Scrolls and add main board Deluges/The Abyss.

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My metagame is very 'fair' as well. Mana denial isn't really a good option, considering Sinkhole is THE mana denial card and it isn't very good right now. Topdecked Shamans get them out of it while also providing a decent threat against Pox (because we're slow.) Wasteland is enough to give you tempo and Smallpox/Hymn to Tourach at BB is so much better. I already said it earlier in the thread, but Collective Brutality is the stone cold nuts. Duress + kill delver/drs/all of D&T's dudes is so good. The life drain/gain is almost always worth a spare land/dark ritual/thoughtseize in hand in the late game too. I would play 4x Collective Brutality before I played 1 Sinkhole right now.

If you want to go mana denial I would check out the w/b version (Vaka Pox) because it uses 4x Vindicate, upping your land destruction count to a whopping 16+ (sinkhole, wasteland, vindicate, smallpox, pox.)

TL;DR - Maindeck Collective Brutality and Ratchet Bomb.

It is funny. I am going to test Squee and vengeful pharaoh next Tuesday, however I am more uncertain how good the cabal therapies are in main deck.
If they shouldn't be in main, I don't see they should be in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

It is funny. I am going to test Squee and vengeful pharaoh next Tuesday, however I am more uncertain how good the cabal therapies are in main deck.
If they shouldn't be in main, I don't see they should be in the sideboard.

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If you don't know what is in their hand, the trick is name the card that beats you. I think Cabal Therapy is severely underplayed, across all of legacy not just pox, because people don't know how to play it.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

If you don't know what is in their hand, the trick is name the card that beats you. I think Cabal Therapy is severely underplayed, across all of legacy not just pox, because people don't know how to play it.

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+1

I totally agree. At the very least its a Gitaxian Probe for B. There's a reason why Storm plays it over Thoughtseize, and its not because of the lifeloss (well, at least not totally.) If they have Probe it becomes a sure-shot. If they don't have probe, they just name the cards they care about and it does the same thing as Duress/Thoughtseize whether they have it or not. Dependant on matchups of course, but the most popular cards I name are Jace tMS and Brainstorm (tapped out in BS's case of course, lol.)

Blind I would probably name DRS, daze or SFM, depending on my hand.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

If you don't know what is in their hand, the trick is name the card that beats you. I think Cabal Therapy is severely underplayed, across all of legacy not just pox, because people don't know how to play it.

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I usually name Force of Will, so that I can resolve my next spell...

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Originally Posted by streetMage

I usually name Force of Will, so that I can resolve my next spell...

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I'm happy to have my Cabal Therapy Force-d all day long. Its not every day someone throws an extra Hymn at you for only B. It's for this reason I almost never name Force of Will (well, that may be an exaggeration, lol.) I'm guessing 99/100 games most Force decks will side them out after g1, and g1 they aren't good. I name what beats me if it resolves, or if they force it I'm happy to take that trade.

Edit: changed above line so I don't sound stupid...

Yeah I always board out FOW against Pox as well, with most regular blue decks. Don't want to 2-for-1 myself.


If I really don't have enough cards to bring in, I may keep 2 FOW in at most to randomly tag a Liliana or so.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I name what beats me, then if they Force it, I'm happy to take that trade.

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didn't the spell already resolve if you named the card?

Correct.

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

didn't the spell already resolve if you named the card?

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Yes, I'm just saying if it resolves I don't name Force of Will. I'll (almost) always name the card that beats me. Sorry if I sounded noob-ish (which I am, lol) and unclear.

I'm going to finally try 2 Therapies with 4 Bloodghast/1 Nether Spirit. I'm skeptical but hoping to get enough value out of it to justify cutting Inquisitions, as I highly value having consistent turn 1 discard. Unlike in Storm, missing on blind therapy is not something we can afford, IMO.

It's been up and down for me lately: 3-0, 0-3, 3-0-1, 0-2 drop. The list has varied a little each time but this is where I'm at:

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Collective Brutality
4 Bloodghast

3 Inquisition of Kozilek/Cabal Therapy
3 Toxic Deluge
3 The Rack

2 Fatal Push

1 Nether Spirit

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
14 Swamp


SB:

4 Leyline of the Void (on thin ice)
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gate to Phyrexia/5th piece of gy hate

I've been playing without any answers to chalice (besides Lili)/pithing needle without much trouble, but might try Gate to Phyrexia since I have more creatures now. Ratchet Bomb doesn't jive with my list too well right now, and I haven't missed it too badly. Bitterblossom would be nice but I've been off it after too many suicides/late arrivals.

Chalice mostly hurt your discard, but that is not a big deal since those are not critical (unlike stuff like win cons or liliana). Therefore it isn't answers you need. Simply put it is, with your deck, better to play around it.

Also you will probably like more stuff to discard to collective brutality. I recommend cutting to three to lessen the need for those cards. (a starting hand full of CB would hurt).
You could try vengeful pharaoh. It is also another win condition.

Lastly i think you need a pair of urborg since you have six colorless lands.

I will try this config next Tuesday:


1 The Rack
4 Bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
1 nether spirit
2 tombstalker
1 vengeful pharaoh

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
3 liliana of the veil
1 entomb
1 squee, goblin nabob
1 Collective Brutality


11 Swamp
1 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
1 dakmor salvage
1 blood crypt

cabal therapy is a card that not very many people run in pox...its a good, skill-intensive card and i like it..

though we really need our spot discard to always hit when there is a potential target..therapy has a possibility of missing, especially against decks that run brainstorm because they can hide the cards, making it more likely for it to miss..

decks like grixis pyromancer runs it well because they have the pyromancer tokens as a sac outlet to flash it back..

hardcore's take on it with ghasts etc might just be the way to go..

Cabal Therapy rewards format knowledge/familiarity, and if you don't know the format I would definitely stick to IoK/TS over CT. However, if you do have good knowledge of the format and your metagame I would advocate strongly for CT because it allows much stronger plays. Flashing it back with Bloodghast is just gravy IMHO. I also really like Bitterblossom for Pox right now, it's just soooooooo good. Those tokens allow for plenty of CT fodder.

I really like the Vengeful Pharaoh tech, it seems quite good. You take your beats but eventually deal with stuff. Getting it into the graveyard seems pretty easy, maybe even maindeck 1-2 Darkblast as alternative removals to give a better chance of dredging it. Darkblast is actually really good in my metagame right now (grixis delver and elves are two of the most popular decks.) With the format being more 'fair' it allows Pox to be really flexible.