[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by ScottW

Anybody notice the 4 Monastery Mentor and 1 Tundra in the side board of the top 32 ANT list at the GP?

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AAAARRGH! Just wrote a rather lengthy message. Disappeared again. In short, I like it, but I'm not sure it'll work without a ton of changes to the sideboard.

Pros:
—Probably not what opponents expect game 2 or 3
—Attacking with any blue or black source untapped is gonna make our opponents think really hard
—If we add further white cards like Silence, we can do stuff like time-walk the opponent to build up Monks
—Infernal Tutor can be used without LED to stock a hand with 'roids for the Monks [EDIT: and make more Monks at the same time]

Cons:
—Slow. Probably way too slow for a deck with no counterspells or removal
—We need to add more white sources if we expect the Mentor to stick, and we probably will need to cut green from the deck or cut it way back to just Carpet/Xantid
—Requires a lot of sideboard restructuring, maybe even to the point of running a transformational board
—Clashes with other stuff in the board like Dread of Night and Massacre
—We've got to find a way either to Haste everything or to produce tokens during the opponent's turn THEN pump them up during ours

Food for thought/questions: When would we board in the Mentors? What would they replace? Does Mentor really solve our problems with hatebears, discard, or heavy control?

Also, did anyone else notice the full quads of Duress and Therapy? I tested with that a bit, but it felt like I kept wanting to draw tutors or cantrips, and instead drew more discard.

it deserves a longer answer but I'm short on time, shortly - it's too much

-2 Sensei’s Divining Top
-1 Past in Flames
-2 Tendrils of Agony

for my liking... for example against MUD I'd go the other route and keep ToA and SDT as it's very realistic to ToA for 14-16 ftw, SDT works very well both under Spheres and onboard LED and EtW for naturaly fast hands is something I'd prefer.. I also do not understand contradictory approach of +AdN +EtW vs. Deathblade and Lands

I hope you don't regret playing Storm, I was rooting for you through the rounds and would be shocked to learn you played Miracles ;)

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Originally Posted by movadomk5

1 Swamp

The list I've been running for a few months now and wanted to see others opinions on my sideboard strategy against blue based decks that also have Deathrite. My plan has been:

-2 Preordain
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cabal Ritual
-3 Duress

+ 1 Tropical
+2 Swarm
+2 Chain
+2 Disfigure

The games always seem close but not sure this is the best configuration to go with.

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Deathrite + U = Burg, grixis, bug, deathblade, sharless .. which one do you mean? all are different, if it has discard or hatebears XS is not stellar, with splash +W you might want AD, and I can't see a reason to cut IT

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Originally Posted by ScottW

Anybody notice the 4 Monastery Mentor and 1 Tundra in the side board of the top 32 ANT list at the GP?

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if you have also noticed it's performance in the coverage...

Mainly the BUG Delver and midrange/control matchups. If I suspect discard as interaction I don't bring in XS but more wondering on the other choices. The Tutor is a bad choice I only cut it because I kept in the petition but prob better cards to cut.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

I wrote a report, it's online now: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...5-at-gpseatac/

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Thanks for the report.
2 things.
One: you didnt faced against miracles. But how would you have sideboarded?

Two: reading your report almost against all deks you took out grinding station and put nauseam in. There for you want nauseam against all deck that are not rug, patriot, miracles and blade I think. So why not playing nauseam main and 2 tendrills sb?

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

AAAARRGH! Just wrote a rather lengthy message. Disappeared again. In short, I like it, but I'm not sure it'll work without a ton of changes to the sideboard.

Pros:
—Probably not what opponents expect game 2 or 3
—Attacking with any blue or black source untapped is gonna make our opponents think really hard
—If we add further white cards like Silence, we can do stuff like time-walk the opponent to build up Monks
—Infernal Tutor can be used without LED to stock a hand with 'roids for the Monks [EDIT: and make more Monks at the same time]

Cons:
—Slow. Probably way too slow for a deck with no counterspells or removal
—We need to add more white sources if we expect the Mentor to stick, and we probably will need to cut green from the deck or cut it way back to just Carpet/Xantid
—Requires a lot of sideboard restructuring, maybe even to the point of running a transformational board
—Clashes with other stuff in the board like Dread of Night and Massacre
—We've got to find a way either to Haste everything or to produce tokens during the opponent's turn THEN pump them up during ours

Food for thought/questions: When would we board in the Mentors? What would they replace? Does Mentor really solve our problems with hatebears, discard, or heavy control?

Also, did anyone else notice the full quads of Duress and Therapy? I tested with that a bit, but it felt like I kept wanting to draw tutors or cantrips, and instead drew more discard.

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The statement that it clashes with DoN or Massacre is an odd one given that there are no MUs where you would bring in both. I would imagine it would be mostly be brought in for the Miracles matchup, like how for some time Young Pyro was being advocated. Mentor doesn't get stopped by sb'ed Flusters, Spell Pierce and unlikely to be stopped by Counterbalance on the table, with the obvious downside that it turns on creature removal (if kept in post-SB). It's a way to provide some pressure against that deck and then hopefully finish off the opponent with creature attacks or a mini-tendrils shortly there-after.

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Originally Posted by davelin

The statement that it clashes with DoN or Massacre is an odd one given that there are no MUs where you would bring in both. I would imagine it would be mostly be brought in for the Miracles matchup, like how for some time Young Pyro was being advocated. Mentor doesn't get stopped by sb'ed Flusters, Spell Pierce and unlikely to be stopped by Counterbalance on the table, with the obvious downside that it turns on creature removal (if kept in post-SB). It's a way to provide some pressure against that deck and then hopefully finish off the opponent with creature attacks or a mini-tendrils shortly there-after.

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Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't advocating bringing in both Mentor and white-hate; I was just pointing out that there's a lot more synergy between different cards in all the other sideboards I've seen; it's possible to board in Decays, Empties, and Dread at the same time against Miracles, for instance, even though there are better plans that don't involve boarding in ten-plus cards. Against D&T, for instance, I can see why Mentor would be useful post-board, but it would clash with other cards that are dedicated to fighting D&T. Essentially my point was that I felt like there would be less flexibility if both were in the board.

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

it deserves a longer answer but I'm short on time, shortly - it's too much

-2 Sensei’s Divining Top
-1 Past in Flames
-2 Tendrils of Agony

for my liking... for example against MUD I'd go the other route and keep ToA and SDT as it's very realistic to ToA for 14-16 ftw, SDT works very well both under Spheres and onboard LED and EtW for naturaly fast hands is something I'd prefer.. I also do not understand contradictory approach of +AdN +EtW vs. Deathblade and Lands

I hope you don't regret playing Storm, I was rooting for you through the rounds and would be shocked to learn you played Miracles ;)

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Originally Posted by Togores

Thanks for the report.
2 things.
One: you didnt faced against miracles. But how would you have sideboarded?

Two: reading your report almost against all deks you took out grinding station and put nauseam in. There for you want nauseam against all deck that are not rug, patriot, miracles and blade I think. So why not playing nauseam main and 2 tendrills sb?

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First off, Storm was the correct choice for the tournament. I'm very glad Sean convinced me. My list could've been better though.

Second, my boarding against Miracles:

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-4 Infernal Tutor
-2 Ponder
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Empty the Warrens

Third, number of Tendrils in the deck at certain stages. You are rarely forced to be fast in game ones. Most of the blue decks have such minimal interaction that being a turn slower barely matters. Against blue decks, however, drawing those Tendrils is often very strong. Likewise, drawing Past in Flames is also almost always better against them than drawing Ad Nauseam.
You really only want Ad Nauseam against nonblue after sideboarding. In fact, I was toying around with Dark Petition in place of the third maindeck Tendrils for a bit, and these lists often did not even run Ad Nauseam in the 75 at all. This is definitely something I want to keep exploring, it might just be better than Ad Nauseam. Against a lot of decks, having Empty in your deck can make up for the loss of Ad Nauseam. This also bleeds into Martin's comments on my sideboarding; I am not convinced boarding in Ad Nauseam is even that much better than boarding Empty against a lot of decks. Against Death & Taxes, for example, I don't think it's unreasonable to just leave Ad Nauseam in the board and board multiple Empties. However, given how narrowly I escaped with a win the one time I cast it against Death & Taxes (turn one, nonetheless), I am not too convinced.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't advocating bringing in both Mentor and white-hate; I was just pointing out that there's a lot more synergy between different cards in all the other sideboards I've seen; it's possible to board in Decays, Empties, and Dread at the same time against Miracles, for instance, even though there are better plans that don't involve boarding in ten-plus cards. Against D&T, for instance, I can see why Mentor would be useful post-board, but it would clash with other cards that are dedicated to fighting D&T. Essentially my point was that I felt like there would be less flexibility if both were in the board.

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Bringing in Mentors against D&T would probably be a mistake, if only for the fact that you're siding in a single white source of mana against with a deck with Wastelands and Ports.

What do you think about Ignorant Bliss vs decks with counterspells and discards like shardless, TA, grixis?

It's a "single axis" answer to a multi axis matchup. So say you pass with two mana open to use ignorant bliss, they might play into it, or they might just keep keep attacking while holding up pierce and force, they might drop a meddling mage into play(Shardless), maybe they play another deathrite and a wasteland and pass- so even if you do fetch your red source and spend two mana to draw a card eot, they can waste the volc before you can use it to combo with. The worst possible scenario is they stifle the "at end of turn return the cards to your hand and draw a card" delayed trigger.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

It's a "single axis" answer to a multi axis matchup. So say you pass with two mana open to use ignorant bliss, they might play into it, or they might just keep keep attacking while holding up pierce and force, they might drop a meddling mage into play(Shardless), maybe they play another deathrite and a wasteland and pass- so even if you do fetch your red source and spend two mana to draw a card eot, they can waste the volc before you can use it to combo with. The worst possible scenario is they stifle the "at end of turn return the cards to your hand and draw a card" delayed trigger.

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Oh dear, if you ever see that happen, walk over to the player who had cast IB and slap him/her in the face like Holly Holms would

Played against Pox not too long ago, and I pretty much got destroyed. Got stuck on one card in hand game 1, and on zero lands in game 2 (Sinkhole). I wasn't really sure what a good strategy would be to beat it except to board in any extra copies of Duress we might have in the board and just jam our discard early. Six discard spells feels like it's far too few, but even seven felt like it probably wouldn't get there. Also, sideboard space is limited because we're already running 4+ cards against Miracles, 3+ cards against Mav/D&T, and likely at least three flex spots for utility spells like Chain of Vapor or Disfigure. What's everyone thinking is the best strategy for dealing with heavy discard and heavy land-destruction? Just board in a few copies of Empty and try to race? I tried that, but I couldn't get cookin' before it got Hymned. Was also considering adding a Dark Confidant or two, but I feel like it clashes with Ad Nauseam and probably won't last against Smallpox, Innocent Blood, and Liliana. I'd appreciate any suggestions, and for the record, my deck was running 2 Petitions, 1 AdN, 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 14 lands. I've since switched one Petition to Empty and added a fifteenth land (3 basics, 8 fetches, 2 Underground, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands) in place of the third Duress. I've found that I usually outlast control without needing more than one discard, I've been getting Wasted pretty regularly, and I feel like a maindeck Badlands can be pretty handy.

I know there are a lot of these posts that pop up, so please forgive me. I'm a seasoned Legacy player, looking to pick up Storm. I have read a few of the articles including Stormboarding by Carsten Kotter. Could you guys point my in the direction of some more reading?

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

VII. Useful Links

• Old ANT thread, lots of useful discussion to read through here
• The Council, where you can see recent lists and finishes for this deck (and all the rest)
• The Cabal Rises, article by Carsten Kotter, 3/23/12
• The Storm Experience, article by Carsten Kotter, 11/02/12
• Comparative Storming, article by Carsten Kotter, 8/02/13
• Storm Training Regimen, article by Carsten Kotter, 8/09/13
• Legacy Storm Primer, article by Adam Prosak, 3/14/13
• Braving The Storm In Los Angeles, article by Adam Prosak, 1/03/13
  
• How to Beat Storm, video for people looking to, well, beat our deck
• The Weather Channel, so you can have more Storm knowledge than anyone else

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Taken from the opening post on the first page

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Played against Pox not too long ago, and I pretty much got destroyed. Got stuck on one card in hand game 1, and on zero lands in game 2 (Sinkhole). I wasn't really sure what a good strategy would be to beat it except to board in any extra copies of Duress we might have in the board and just jam our discard early. Six discard spells feels like it's far too few, but even seven felt like it probably wouldn't get there. Also, sideboard space is limited because we're already running 4+ cards against Miracles, 3+ cards against Mav/D&T, and likely at least three flex spots for utility spells like Chain of Vapor or Disfigure. What's everyone thinking is the best strategy for dealing with heavy discard and heavy land-destruction? Just board in a few copies of Empty and try to race? I tried that, but I couldn't get cookin' before it got Hymned. Was also considering adding a Dark Confidant or two, but I feel like it clashes with Ad Nauseam and probably won't last against Smallpox, Innocent Blood, and Liliana. I'd appreciate any suggestions, and for the record, my deck was running 2 Petitions, 1 AdN, 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 14 lands. I've since switched one Petition to Empty and added a fifteenth land (3 basics, 8 fetches, 2 Underground, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands) in place of the third Duress. I've found that I usually outlast control without needing more than one discard, I've been getting Wasted pretty regularly, and I feel like a maindeck Badlands can be pretty handy.

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Play out your leds, run 1/2 Sensei’s Divining Top and don't crack fetches unless you really have to. Lands, leds and cantrips are pretty good against Pox and top is just a house against discard in general.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

The worst possible scenario is they stifle the "at end of turn return the cards to your hand and draw a card" delayed trigger.

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I want to believe this happened. I would have laughed a lot. I also want to witness this.

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Play out your leds, run 1/2 Sensei’s Divining Top and don't crack fetches unless you really have to. Lands, leds and cantrips are pretty good against Pox and top is just a house against discard in general.

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Thanks for the advice! Would you recommend boarding in a second copy of Past in Flames against Pox?

I've been considering retooling my sideboard after maindecking a copy of Empty. Here's what I was thinking:
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Dark Petition
3x Dread of Night
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tropical Island
1x Past in Flames, Xantid Swarm, or Carpet of Flowers (not sure about this)

N.B.: I'm not sure whether it's worth it to keep the second Petition and put Echoing Truth in the board at this point. I included Petition because I'm not sure I like nixing the sixth tutor completely from the 75, and I threw in Echoing Truth because I've often had problems with double-Shaman or double-Sphere of Resistance. If I were to cut one or both of those cards, I'd probably throw in a couple of copies of Disfigure or 1x Disfigure, 1x Duress (to make a 3:4 Duress/Therapy split). Maybe a second Hurkyl's depending on how the meta develops here.

What's everyone think of this strategy?

@JamieW89, please check mail box

My currently local meta has been overrun with players running both lands and punishing loam. Do you guys have any suggestions for sideboard options for these match ups?

I'm currently running this list.

Why does it seem like everybody is now playing 14 lands?