All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

The banned list isn't and shouldn't be a goal into itself, it should be a method of managing the format to make it more fun and interesting.

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Using B/R list length as an evaluation parameter is useful because it guards against inertia ("X is restricted because it was broken at one time and the format is currently healthy without it..."), which leads to a stagnant format. When a meta is healthy (and clearly the current health of the meta is up for debate), that's the ideal time to be talking about unbannings to shake it up, and the cards unlikely to have an impact (Mind Twist, Frantic Search) are the ideal place to start.

On the matter of Frantic Search specificially, without a natural experiment (e.g., it being unrestricted in Vintage or reprinted in a Modern-legal set), we're left with speculative arguments as to whether or not Frantic Search safe. And since the Frantic Search was really the accomplice of Tolarian Academy, the only argument for leaving it banned is fear that it will power up an existing or new combo deck, and High Tide is the only clear fit for it in Legacy. I don't think that having FS will push it over the edge into "broken" territory, since it's currently a tier 2 deck and is incredibly slow by the standards of combo. If it becomes tier 1, I have no idea what it would be displacing, so the number of viable decks would grow.

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Originally Posted by btm10

On the matter of Frantic Search specificially, without a natural experiment (e.g., it being unrestricted in Vintage or reprinted in a Modern-legal set), we're left with speculative arguments as to whether or not Frantic Search safe. And since the Frantic Search was really the accomplice of Tolarian Academy, the only argument for leaving it banned is fear that it will power up an existing or new combo deck, and High Tide is the only clear fit for it in Legacy. I don't think that having FS will push it over the edge into "broken" territory, since it's currently a tier 2 deck and is incredibly slow by the standards of combo. If it becomes tier 1, I have no idea what it would be displacing, so the number of viable decks would grow.

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I imagine a new shell for reanimator would use and storm would probably use it. Frantic search past in flames, frantic search seems good. It might make Ad nasueam a little painful though if you have to use it.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

It doesn't have to be High Tide necessarily, just any deck that has a propensity for digging through cards, throwing them in the bin, and being totally okay with untapping three land. Which is probably um… a lot of decks. O_o

On its face it is aimed right at Storm combo, whatever that may be, but Reanimator would probably enjoy it as well. I just want Madness to be a thing though. I would Circular the shit out some Logic with Frantic Search, it'd be sweeeeet

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I think some variants of reanimator would definitely enjoy it, but I can also see what people say with their land density being so low and typically aiming at being explosive VS resilient (although this may bring about a new type of reanimator that's a little more control).

And TsumiBand, I completely agree. Any deck that likes to do that. Right now the amount of decks that can use Frantic Search is small. They don't dominate every tournament they go in. They have sporadic showings. And that's my point. I feel like its a safe unban. A powerful card, don't get me wrong, but a safe card to unban.

I see 2 sides regarding Frantic Search. I agree that it may be a safe unban, but at the same time I don't want to keep adding more powerful blue stuff to Legacy.

I get that blue is the best color, I really do, and I fell in love with the format in spite of that 4-5 years ago. However, I find myself gravitating to Modern more and more since the colors really do feel balanced in that format.

Someone above me said it best.. that if Miracles can mainboard REBs/Pyroblasts to good use, then there seems to be a bit too much Blue running rampant. I would kill to have a time machine to take me 2-3 years back so I could run Goblins up against a deck that is bold enough to maindeck a seemingly narrow card like REB.

Frantic search in a blue elves build to untap a cradle seems suuhhweeet. Or UB Tez to untap a sol land or two

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

It doesn't have to be High Tide necessarily, just any deck that has a propensity for digging through cards, throwing them in the bin, and being totally okay with untapping three land. Which is probably um… a lot of decks. O_o

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Would that really make those decks that much better? Keep in mind you need three lands in play to get full value out of frantic search.

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Originally Posted by clavio

Would that really make those decks that much better? Keep in mind you need three lands in play to get full value out of frantic search.

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I think a lot of decks would be thrilled to improve their card quality 'for free', sure. Having two cards in hand, then choosing 2 from the best of 4, and then untapping for another potential effect seems very appealing.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

A mod should really update this thread with a new poll.

It's downright silly to have this poll up without having either Show and Tell or TNN up as options.

Would also be nice to have an analogous thread and poll discussing Legacy most unbannable card. Survival should win that.

It would be useful in Enchantress and Elves, both of which are strong but not dominating. I don't see it making either of those decks over the top (although for sure VERY powerful in them).

I can see it being played overall in:
Reanimator
High Ride Variants
UB Tezzerett
Sneak N' Show
Elves
Enchantress
Mono-U Control
Others?

I'm ok with these decks having that card. Wasteland is still very prevalent in the format and it helps against some of these decks attempting to abuse Frantic Search

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

If you can Daze or Spell Pierce a cantrip against High Tide you definitely do. Force you save for something more important. REB you should use on a Brainstorm or Merchant Scroll.

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I suppose this is off topic, but this is outstandingly bad advise. It doesn't matter if they can pay for the soft permission to resolve the High Tide because every Island that they tap on their combo turn denies them 2-3 mana. Using REB to counter a Brainstorm is also extremely wasteful. Countering a Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish can sometimes be good when you expect them to be searching for a Wipe Away (to remove CB, Ethersworn, Leyline, etc). Usually the best strategy is to fight over the High Tide with any soft counters and then let HT resolve so you have more mana to fight again over their big draw spells (Time Spiral, BSZ) with your Cliques and hard counters.

Oh, and I don't see too much harm in Frantic Search. A ponderous mono Blue combo deck with pretty good game against other combo decks seems fine. If it helps UB Tezz also then all the better.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

A mod should really update this thread with a new poll.

It's downright silly to have this poll up without having either Show and Tell or TNN up as options.

Would also be nice to have an analogous thread and poll discussing Legacy most unbannable card. Survival should win that.

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It was stated somewhere in the thread that the vote stays for historical reasons.

A new, seperate poll could be interesting, but I'm not sure if the mods would be too happy about it.

We already have a discussion for the unbanning of Survival - roughly 80% of the people who voted wanted it back.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I suppose this is off topic, but this is outstandingly bad advise. It doesn't matter if they can pay for the soft permission to resolve the High Tide because every Island that they tap on their combo turn denies them 2-3 mana. Using REB to counter a Brainstorm is also extremely wasteful. Countering a Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish can sometimes be good when you expect them to be searching for a Wipe Away (to remove CB, Ethersworn, Leyline, etc). Usually the best strategy is to fight over the High Tide with any soft counters and then let HT resolve so you have more mana to fight again over their big draw spells (Time Spiral, BSZ) with your Cliques and hard counters.

Oh, and I don't see too much harm in Frantic Search. A ponderous mono Blue combo deck with pretty good game against other combo decks seems fine. If it helps UB Tezz also then all the better.

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It does filter for "free", but it is card disadvantage as well.

Here's a question, if it were something like a Phyrexian Mana Careful Study, would it see a lot of play and be broken? It isn't completely the same card, but it is a "free" loot 2. (yes I'm aware dredge would poop its pants with such a thing)

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

A mod should really update this thread with a new poll.

It's downright silly to have this poll up without having either Show and Tell or TNN up as options.

Would also be nice to have an analogous thread and poll discussing Legacy most unbannable card. Survival should win that.

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This is repeated every few pages. The poll is a nice reminder to "sky is falling because of card X" people how much the format can change, and how cards that people may have once thought were oppressive are fine now. I think of it as a "chill the hell out" type of message.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

It does filter for "free", but it is card disadvantage as well.

Here's a question, if it were something like a Phyrexian Mana Careful Study, would it see a lot of play and be broken? It isn't completely the same card, but it is a "free" loot 2. (yes I'm aware dredge would poop its pants with such a thing)

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Not only Dredge, but Reanimator as well, since it makes T1 reanimation much more likely. Other decks care too much about the card diadvantage.

I could see some of the non blue combo decks running it. I would put some in Painter.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Not only Dredge, but Reanimator as well, since it makes T1 reanimation much more likely. Other decks care too much about the card diadvantage.

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Fair. I'm not advocating the unbanning of search, just wanted to do an exercise on whether or not an "improved" (in the sense that you dont need 3 mana in the first place) version of the card would theoretically be played.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Fair. I'm not advocating the unbanning of search, just wanted to do an exercise on whether or not an "improved" (in the sense that you dont need 3 mana in the first place) version of the card would theoretically be played.

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I think that a Phyrexian Careful Study would see play, but it would likely be mostly limited to decks that are already interested in Careful Study and Faithless Looting sorts of effects. I think the interesting part of Frantic Search isn't the filter for free part but the untap lands that might be tapping for multiple mana part. Still, Frantic Search has some very real drawbacks. It is only "free" if you have three land, which isn't simple for every combo deck, and it is card disadvantage... free filtering but still negative CA. I think the thing to ask is would my deck play a three mana card that reads "Untap three land, plus some upside."

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I think that a Phyrexian Careful Study would see play, but it would likely be mostly limited to decks that are already interested in Careful Study and Faithless Looting sorts of effects. I think the interesting part of Frantic Search isn't the filter for free part but the untap lands that might be tapping for multiple mana part. Still, Frantic Search has some very real drawbacks. It is only "free" if you have three land, which isn't simple for every combo deck, and it is card disadvantage... free filtering but still negative CA. I think the thing to ask is would my deck play a three mana card that reads "Untap three land, plus some upside."

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Exactly. I don't think there is a large amount of decks that would benefit so strongly from this card, but some that would benefit a bit from it.

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

Exactly. I don't think there is a large amount of decks that would benefit so strongly from this card, but some that would benefit a bit from it.

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It only takes one deck.

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Originally Posted by rufus

It only takes one deck.

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Well... that's obviously why I brought the card up. I don't see there being one dominating deck with this card. Do you have insight towards some specific deck that would be the one deck?

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Oh, and I don't see too much harm in Frantic Search. A ponderous mono Blue combo deck with pretty good game against other combo decks seems fine. If it helps UB Tezz also then all the better.

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Is Show&Tell + Dream Halls still not enough or you?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

It does filter for "free", but it is card disadvantage as well.

Here's a question, if it were something like a Phyrexian Mana Careful Study, would it see a lot of play and be broken? It isn't completely the same card, but it is a "free" loot 2. (yes I'm aware dredge would poop its pants with such a thing)

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Would be insane. Every deck that can make up the carddisadvantage would run it. Reanimator, Storm combo, Dredge, Tres.hold, Loam

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Is Show&Tell + Dream Halls still not enough or you?



Would be insane. Every deck that can make up the carddisadvantage would run it. Reanimator, Storm combo, Dredge, Tres.hold, Loam

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I'm not sure I can see dredge running it, but I could definitely see the others.

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

I'm not sure I can see dredge running it, but I could definitely see the others.

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Free looting? Manaless/LED Dredge would shit pants in joy. The thing is a Street Wraith on steroids AND a FREE discard outlet

Phyrexian Looting, response break LED, dredge like an idiot and flashback milled Faithless Looting ... xP

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Free looting? Manaless/LED Dredge would shit pants in joy. The thing is a Street Wraith on steroids AND a FREE discard outlet

Phyrexian Looting, response break LED, dredge like an idiot and flashback milled Faithless Looting ... xP

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I mean they already play careful study, why wouldnt they play free careful study? I think the card would be strong, but not necessarily broken.

So I like how the best Legacy deck doesn't use TNN or Show and Tell.

Maybe TNN is fine afterall?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

So I like how the best Legacy deck doesn't use TNN or Show and Tell.

Maybe TNN is fine afterall?

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TNN is, BS isn't.

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Originally Posted by testing32

TNN is, BS isn't.

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Could Brainstorm be banned? Sure. Tarmogoyf could get banned. Sensei's Divining Top could be banned.

Will Brainstorm be banned? Brainstorm is unlikely to be banned.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Brainstorm is unlikely to be banned.

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I know :(

They need to get on printing some good non-blue cards already.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

So I like how the best Legacy deck doesn't use TNN or Show and Tell.

Maybe TNN is fine afterall?

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A card doesn't have to be the best card to be banned, it's enough if it warps the meta around it, especially towards combo and anti-combo. I don't think even Wizards thought the Mystical Tutor decks were clearly better than the aggro-control lists of the day for instance.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I don't mean this as an insult (like 90% of the people on this site would) but you should come play modern. Check my post history, it's pretty much all I play now, and the B&R list there is actually pretty damn good. They do change the format depending on what seems OP and even though they flub it once in a while (like banning GSZ and Wild Nacatl in the same round), overall it seems to be getting better and better.

And check this out, blue isn't the end all be all of the format.

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I've been playing it recently, it's an interesting format. I'm planning on going to the Richmond GP. I like that the different decks are actually different.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I suppose this is off topic, but this is outstandingly bad advise. It doesn't matter if they can pay for the soft permission to resolve the High Tide because every Island that they tap on their combo turn denies them 2-3 mana. Using REB to counter a Brainstorm is also extremely wasteful. Countering a Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish can sometimes be good when you expect them to be searching for a Wipe Away (to remove CB, Ethersworn, Leyline, etc). Usually the best strategy is to fight over the High Tide with any soft counters and then let HT resolve so you have more mana to fight again over their big draw spells (Time Spiral, BSZ) with your Cliques and hard counters.

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If you are sitting on your counters and letting the High Tide player sculpt a perfect hand, you are never going to beat them when they go off. Countering a three card loot if they have or can drop a fetchland by REBing a Brainstorm is fantastically efficient. You also want to just stop them from finding land if it's possible.

You have clearly not spent a lot of time actually playing against competent High Tide players.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Using B/R list length as an evaluation parameter is useful because it guards against inertia ("X is restricted because it was broken at one time and the format is currently healthy without it..."), which leads to a stagnant format. When a meta is healthy (and clearly the current health of the meta is up for debate), that's the ideal time to be talking about unbannings to shake it up, and the cards unlikely to have an impact (Mind Twist, Frantic Search) are the ideal place to start.

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Length of the banned list has no intrinsic connection to when cards on it were banned.

Also an unhealthy format is when you talk about changing the banned list most, because you hope to resolve an issue with the state of the game, although it's a good idea to re-examine cards that may not have belonged on the list to start with.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Free looting? Manaless/LED Dredge would shit pants in joy. The thing is a Street Wraith on steroids AND a FREE discard outlet

Phyrexian Looting, response break LED, dredge like an idiot and flashback milled Faithless Looting ... xP

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Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about the card that didn't actually exist. Yes, they definitely would want to run a phyrexian looting.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Length of the banned list has no intrinsic connection to when cards on it were banned.

Also an unhealthy format is when you talk about changing the banned list most, because you hope to resolve an issue with the state of the game, although it's a good idea to re-examine cards that may not have belonged on the list to start with.

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Using banned list length as a criterion sets implicit flags for when bannings/unbannings should be considered. If the meta is healthy, then cards for which sound theoretical arguments for unbanning exist should at least get a hearing, if not a one-at-a-time unbanning. If minimizing the length of the list weren't something the DCI explicitly aimed for then the argument for unbannings would always be intrinsically uphill, with the burden of proof being on showing that a banned card would be safe. With the current framing, the burden, at least rhetorically, lies on those arguing to maintain a ban on something like Mind Twist. Essentially, the card is innocent until proven guilty.

This system makes healthy metas the setting for talking about unbannings/restritions and unhealthy metas the setting for talking about bannings/restrictions because unhealthy metas are the only ones where it's possible to single out a card as being the cause of the problem. If we adopt a policy where the burden is on the people arguing against restrictions, we open the door to a whole slew of undesirable bannings and things like TNN and Brainstorm would just be the start and the end would likely be a format only marginally different from Modern and far less like Vintage. One of the things I find unappealing about Modern is how sterile and controlled the format is. I like the wilder, swinger atmosphere that having powerful cards like Brainstorm enables. I don't want "swing with better dudes than standard" and "Mana Leak is too good" to be the themes of my format.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Using banned list length as a criterion sets implicit flags for when bannings/unbannings should be considered. If the meta is healthy, then cards for which sound theoretical arguments for unbanning exist should at least get a hearing, if not a one-at-a-time unbanning. If minimizing the length of the list weren't something the DCI explicitly aimed for then the argument for unbannings would always be intrinsically uphill, with the burden of proof being on showing that a banned card would be safe. With the current framing, the burden, at least rhetorically, lies on those arguing to maintain a ban on something like Mind Twist. Essentially, the card is innocent until proven guilty.

This system makes healthy metas the setting for talking about unbannings/restritions and unhealthy metas the setting for talking about bannings/restrictions because unhealthy metas are the only ones where it's possible to single out a card as being the cause of the problem. If we adopt a policy where the burden is on the people arguing against restrictions, we open the door to a whole slew of undesirable bannings and things like TNN and Brainstorm would just be the start and the end would likely be a format only marginally different from Modern and far less like Vintage. One of the things I find unappealing about Modern is how sterile and controlled the format is. I like the wilder, swinger atmosphere that having powerful cards like Brainstorm enables. I don't want "swing with better dudes than standard" and "Mana Leak is too good" to be the themes of my format.

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AKA: go play Modern if you want frequent bannings designed to balance the format.

AKA2: Go play Modern if you dislike Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Using banned list length as a criterion sets implicit flags for when bannings/unbannings should be considered.

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I don't know what you mean by "flags," it sets a clear condition. It just has no connection to the actual purpose of the banned list, which is to manage the format. It is a self-referential and thus useless and incestuous purpose. The banned list's purpose cannot be for it to exist in given state X, without regard for any other function.

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If the meta is healthy, then cards for which sound theoretical arguments for unbanning exist should at least get a hearing,

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This is a total and complete shift in topic from the prior sentence. The meta being healthy or not should be the basis for changing the banned list, with banning and unbanning cards being equally viable means to alter the format; but there's no clear reason given why the format needs to be changed when it's healthy. The opposite should pretty clearly be the case.

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if not a one-at-a-time unbanning. If minimizing the length of the list weren't something the DCI explicitly aimed for then the argument for unbannings would always be intrinsically uphill, with the burden of proof being on showing that a banned card would be safe. With the current framing, the burden, at least rhetorically, lies on those arguing to maintain a ban on something like Mind Twist. Essentially, the card is innocent until proven guilty.

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Not at all. The burden is on those who argue to change the banned list to explain why changes should be made. "People want to play card X" might be part of that argument, although pretty clearly not a sufficient part.

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This system makes healthy metas the setting for talking about unbannings/restritions and unhealthy metas the setting for talking about bannings/restrictions because unhealthy metas are the only ones where it's possible to single out a card as being the cause of the problem.

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This is a nonsensical distinction. Bannings and unbannings are flip sides of the same coin. If a card being in a meta makes it healthier- a necessary precondition if we are also to assume that a card can make a meta less healthy- then it follows that adding a card can make a meta more healthy, as removing a card can make it less healthy. It has been argued pretty compellingly that Survival, or Mind Twist, or even Mishra's Workshop coupled with a ban of Trinisphere, could make the metagame more interesting and diverse, as it is pretty easy to argue that for instance, banning Force of Will, or banning Thalia, or banning Wasteland would be negative for the format.

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One of the things I find unappealing about Modern is how sterile and controlled the format is. I like the wilder, swinger atmosphere that having powerful cards like Brainstorm enables. I don't want "swing with better dudes than standard" and "Mana Leak is too good" to be the themes of my format.

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So, you don't play Modern.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

This is a nonsensical distinction. Bannings and unbannings are flip sides of the same coin. If a card being in a meta makes it healthier- a necessary precondition if we are also to assume that a card can make a meta less healthy- then it follows that adding a card can make a meta more healthy, as removing a card can make it less healthy.

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What objectively determines whether a card should be banned or not because it makes the meta "unhealthy"? (short of WotC deciding they want to ban it)

The last 300+ pages of this topic is my evidence that subjective means isn't the best course.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What objectively determines whether a card should be banned or not because it makes the meta "unhealthy"? (short of WotC deciding they want to ban it)

The last 300+ pages of this topic is my evidence that subjective means isn't the best course.

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Objective preferences are by nature contradictory. Even given a stated ends, subjective decisions have to be made. This can lead to mistakes but it doesn't really matter because there isn't an alternative. This is true of life in general, not just banned list decisions.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Objective preferences are by nature contradictory. Even given a stated ends, subjective decisions have to be made. This can lead to mistakes but it doesn't really matter because there isn't an alternative. This is true of life in general, not just banned list decisions.

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Without an objective means, you're pretty much left with mob rule. Even in the world of MTG there are times when a ban is clearly needed. Skullclamp and Jace, the Mind Sculptor during their time in Standard comes to mind.

Plenty of people argued quite vehemently against banning Jace or Skullclamp in Standard. Even after GP: Columbus, people argued that people should "quit whining" and "adapt" to a Hulk-Flash meta.

What objective criteria do you want to use to determine bannings?