Aight thanks. I admit that was a rather easy one.
What scenario involving Top and Pierce in your starting hand would make it really hard for you to decide which route to take (and why)?
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Aight thanks. I admit that was a rather easy one.
What scenario involving Top and Pierce in your starting hand would make it really hard for you to decide which route to take (and why)?
If on the play rather than on the draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Also T1 u Sea into > Go, I'd very much be inclined to say "go", as I could otherwise walk into a plethora of nasty things happening (Entomb, Drit, Drit > AdN etc, Hymn)
i wouldnt be worried about getting dazed at all. there is no threat on board and even if they daze and use their mana for brainstorm its a bad brainstorm and tempo loss. I mean they didnt play a creature so they probably only have a goyf or confidant. So daze is irrelevant. It's most likely that you are facing a cascade deck, because there was no creature/ponder. The worst case scenario would be underground sea->daze-> entomb->reanimate griselbrand. but thats very unlikely and in this case youre almost dead anyway. Wouldnt Opp entomb in his/her turn anyway?
I would hold up pierce but at the same time i dont think playing top is bad.
I could only imagine g2 on the play against some combo deck when you have two 1cc counters like Pierce and REB/flusterstorm. If you dont play top turn one, you probably wont play it turn 2 or 3, but could be dead on turn one.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
People are tired of arguing with people who don't understand how variance works and how Ponder helps defeating that... of course a lot comes down to playskill and decisions, but having acces to Ponder makes these decisions more easy. Even without a Top, Ponder helps to plan ahead and to find situationally useful cards. I question anyone not running the full set of Ponder in his or her blue deck - consistency is king, especially in such a wide open format and even more so in such a streamlined deck. You want to have acces to what you need for the moment. The card is out since nearly 8 years by now, restricted in Vintage and banned in Modern, so how can people still argue against its usefulness?...Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
Using Ein's 75, vs. Shardless BUG...
-4 FOW
-4 CB
-2 STP
+3 VC
+1 ETA
+1 EE
+1 SV
+1 CSpell
+2 REB
+1 Pyroblast
Is there a way in sideboarding to keep the 3rd STP in postboard? DRS is the biggest problem card for me in this matchup and I think having more ways to deal with it would be nice. The notable cards that come out to me are the 3rd VC and the 3rd blast effect. Right now my intuition is saying on the play I want to the 3rd STP and on the play I want the 3rd blast. Thoughts?
EDIT: Also, somewhere on r/MTGLegacy was a post saying in the past few opens/Legacy IQs after TC was banned, Miracles is 0-9 vs Shardless BUG. Hence, why I brought this up. I also think we need to discuss our game plan vs this deck preboard and post. Any initial thoughts?
BUG is the only good deck that beats us. You kind of have to accept that. Out only real plan is to point disruption at them to keep them from killing us fast and to burn out their Force of Wills, and maybe Deeds as necessary, and make an Entreat for 4 or so, ensuring you can win quickly through an Abrupt Decay or two. Apart from that, playing fair is difficult. I would actually be tempted to sideboard Dig Through Time for this MU, but it doesn't seem quite high impact enough. If you wanted to go there, you could play 3 Force/1 Misdirection, and board a second, but I don't know what that sideboard would look like, and again, it's not really high impact enough. If you can misdirect their Decay on your Balance, you should be able to start screaming ahead on CA, until they find their second. Hopefully it'll do enough damage. As I said, it's low impact, and it does require you keeping Balances in post board.
Good point, Lossett doesn't run Ponder in his Miracles. Reid Duke's Miracles in Players Championship doesn't run Ponder as well. Are you saying they don't understand variance?Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
Also, it's easier, not more easy.
By SB-out CB, you're pretty much allowing CA from cascade to get better, not to mention Shardless will SB-in more silvan library. If you're that concerned about Shardless, run Keranos SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
I doubt all the Shardless use Pernicious Deed SB, thought that's a nic-fit thing, maybe meta depending.
No, I think they would rather stick to the petdeck they created themselves. Nothing wrong with that, they are both good enough to succeed, but I think they would do even better if they played Ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Or they decided not to do like everyone else due to some scg article and try their own deck building skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
On a more important note: trying out double keranos tomorrow against shardless =)
I've been playing at least 8 cantrips in any UW control deck since Carsten Kotter Caw Cartel in 2011, so no, it's not about the hype of an scg article, at least for me. In my experience with control decks (and I started playing control in 2009 so its fairly extensive and spans multiple archetypes across 6 years, from UWx Landstill, to Dreadstill, to Bug control and finally Miracles), cantrip heavy builds are clearly easier to play, more flexible and less clunky than 23-24 lands control decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
Hello
Or they just descided that the increasement in consistency is not worth the decreasement in impact.Quote:
No, I think they would rather stick to the petdeck they created themselves. Nothing wrong with that, they are both good enough to succeed, but I think they would do even better if they played Ponder.
The chance to get a no Land hand increases with each land you dropp. For a Control Deck you should never go under 22 Lands. The reason is if you draw 1 land and ponder or Storm or Top it is ok but if you draw no land all of these cards will do nothing for you.
Also you donīt want to miss more than 2 land dropps because this would generate a huge inability to answer the threats since they have more recources than you and therefore can provide more threats than you have answers.
So concidering that even with Ponder I donīt think cutting more lands is a good Idea. So if you donīt cut lands which cards you cut and here most of the guys who donīt play Ponder concider it to have less impact than the cards they play instead because they have to cut answers instead of lands for the ponder.
This can be proven by the comparisson of the Legendary List and Phils. Phils plays 4 Ponder and 21 lands (I use the list from his last article). While the Legendary list
is played with 23 lands, 3 Cliques and 1 Venser.
so the legendary build lowered the consitency by a view percent to increase the impact the deck can have on each stage of the game. The reason for this is that it is better to have the actual answer to the problem than a chance to find the answer via addtional cantrips.
So yes you are right to say Ponder is a great card but your are not right when deaming all who donīt play it inferior because they just use a other approach towards the question how to get the answers they need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teveshszat
I don't play much Miracles, but I also think that it's incredibly presumptuous to suggest that someone like Reid Duke shows up to a tournament where there's serious money on the line and doesn't play what he thinks is the best 75 for him.
Do you seriously think the "perfect 75" exists?Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
Did I ever say that? No. A perfect 75 exists for a given event, but it's mostly impossible to figure out the exact 75...Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I think Reid Duke and Joe Losset play subpar versions of the deck. I think their card selections can be massively improved. Philipp and his team/friends/people have shown that to be true. Joe stopped playing Miracles and cut to Reanimator for a while because his version stopped winning, but that was simply not true for Shönneger's version. It won pre KTK, it won whilst Cruise was everywhere (and I feel we actually became even stronger in that format), and it's still winning now.
Hello,
This is simply not true. Losset picked up anothe deck because he wanted a better matchup in the treasure cruse infested meta. The thing is that the miracles UR macthup wasnīt that good but reanimator is a great deck against it so playing this to defeat the most played deck sounds like a better choice than countinue to play Miralces and losing chances.Quote:
YamiJoey
I think Reid Duke and Joe Losset play subpar versions of the deck. I think their card selections can be massively improved. Philipp and his team/friends/people have shown that to be true. Joe stopped playing Miracles and cut to Reanimator for a while because his version stopped winning, but that was simply not true for Shönneger's version.
If you want a proof look at his Deck tech for Reanimator he says it there.
Also this impression comes from the fact that the Legendary Miracle players do not post their results as often as the other players. Both Version won before Treasure cruise and both will win after Cruise it is again just a other approach. Both decks are valid and both are even in strenght only difference is the difficulty because the ponder Version is easier to play than the Legendary Version. This is totally clear because the cantrips make it easier to recover from mistakes.
Hello everyone, I am considering picking miracle up recently for I want to try another kind of deck other than combo
Since I am a noob to this deck and maybe don't have time to read the whole threads, I have two questions about two specific mu.
How to beat mud and omnitel maindecking boseiju? Just because I can always see mud shows up in my local store now, so I don't want to build a deck which is a prey to mud.
MUD is getting more and more popular and this is dangerous to Miracle.
If Null Rod starts to pop out we lose EE and Top which is a big mess.. as well as Maelstrom Pulse on Angels...
they are taking measures to Miracles these days imho..
Also, it's IMPOSSIBLE to beat OmniTell, in a game that goes long (t6 and onwards) as eventually they will find both SnT, Omni and DTT/Emrakul.
Just go beatdown and make it so that their life totals go down, asap. And, obviously, counter every single Dig they play.
This is not true... Omnitell is still a great matchup. Game one is loseable since we have 9-10 bad white cards, but game 2 our deck is 100% counters, cantrips, or intereactive threats. Boseiju + S&T + Emrakul is the only one of their 3 card combos that we cannot still counter (regardless of Boseiju) and that we can just beat with Jace, Venser, Karakas, or Council Judgment. Don't get me wrong Boseiju is good, but if they get a S&T off, and put omni or dream halls into play, you can still counter anything else they cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
MUD is also a positive matchup. They draw hands that are complete duds a good portion of the time, and unlike every other fair deck, miracles can actually efficiently answer everything that do and cares little about their "stax" type cards. Dont worry too much about triosphere only worry about chalice if its turn 1 on the play and your hand is all 1 drops. Honeslty those cards do not do much against miracles. Jace is key in this matchup. Always be sculpting towards a game where you get to cast jace on a board with 1 or less creatures out and you will do well.
How do you think counters match up vs Boseiju? If you think you can ever beat uncounterable SnT + Anything, you are mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Confinement Priest and Meddling Mage for Cunning Wish makes us win like 90%
in that matchup we just need many SB slots and no creature hate in the deck at all.
Meddling mage is also sweer for Abrupt Decay and Infernal Tutor
Thanks a lot!
Actually boseiju is very hard to beat based on my own experience（I used to play sneakshow a lot）, if they resolve snt into omniscience, they would cast dtt and fow for free which is nearly impossible for miracle to come back. Because omnitell is designed around the concept of consistency, with bunch of cantrips and tutor like dtt, it is not very difficult for them to assemble the boseiju+snt.
For mud, I know trinisphere does not matter too much, what I worry about is their big mana spell like sundering titan. Our countertop lock does not affect their big threat at all and since we don't disrupt their manabase and often win the game too slow, they have quite a lot of time to play their threat one by one. Swords may be shut down by chalice and terminus more often only trades one for one. Also some sb cards dedicated to artifact is not perfect at all in this mu, since if they resolve a sundering titan through cavern of souls, we are really hard to recover.
Beating down as soon as possible seems valid but in fact is very rare to happen in my opinion, I think any player familiar with legacy knows that most of time miracle plays a really long game for winning. Only some snapcaster mage and clique are not enough for us to race with the combo.
I personally really hate to be lost to mud for I dislike mud a lot. I always saw mud topped 8 in SCG IQ recently, which may encourage more people to play mud, therefore it may seem urgent for us to give more respect to that deck. Besides, for those who will go to GP Kyoto, I think omnitel with boseiju should be seriously taken into consideration because omnitel is omnipresent in Japan as far as I know.
ha, I forget about meddling mage, which seems great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Hello,
Thats 100% true. For things that cost 8 you actually have Dig through time as Option for your Cb. For Threats like Hellkite, Trikelion or Wurmcoilengine we get Terminus which actuallyQuote:
GoblinZ
Our countertop lock does not affect their big threat at all
cost 6 Mana for the Cb. Even for the 4 Mana things we have Jace as Option for the CB.
So against mud our Cb is not entirly dead as you may think but yes it is not as effective as it is in other matchups.
I don't really know how to beat MUD, and I'm unsure how TheArchitect finds it to be a good matchup. It seems that the 12post variety is the most common these days, which makes it comparable to 12 post, making it quite bad imo. Whenever I've played against MUD, if I won the match it's because their deck really pooped on them or they played quite badly. However, if the pilot plays their deck well and they don't have a below average draw, I find myself losing pretty hard. However, I've never actively tested the MU because it's always been under the radar for quite some time. By all means test out TheArchitect's advice. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that he's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
Now for Omnitell, a MU I know more about: When a Show and Tell deck is including Boseiju in their game plan, the traditional response is to start countering their cantrips. Yes, that means even Force of Willing a Brainstorm if need be. The fact that you are facing Boseiju Game One is rough since, if you are playing Ein's list (what type of list are you playing or planning on playing btw? That would help in us giving you advice), you are quite counterlight Game One with only Four Force and One Counterspell. This means assembling counter top becomes more important so you can mostly shut down their cantrips (can never shut down Dig most likely unless you get your own Dig on top). Postboard, you will more able to enact this gameplan as you bring in ALL the counters and some threats like Vendilion Clique to clock them faster. I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions about what I said or anything else really. Also, please let us know what type of Miracles list you are playing as that can affect how you play MUs.
With MUD and Miracles being my first and second deck in changing order I can say that I have tested the matchup. (I play either a 10/11-Post variant or at least one with Thran Dynamo. My Miracles-build includes 4 Ponder.) It is not close. The matchup is certainly in the order of 65:35 in favor of MUD. As a Miracles-player you have to counter or remove literally everything: Chalice, Metalworker, Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan, Ugin, Kuldotha, Colossus, Steel Hellkite. Sadly, Trinisphere and Lodstone Golem are hindering you. In my experience, Council's Judgement is stellar in this matchup, as are Force and Plow and Counterspell. If you win, it's normally with Jace.
Counters are still awesome. The actual card Show and Tell does not beat us. If they are not putting in grisselbrand we can still interact successfully. G2 we are less likely to be able to answer their (often only a 1of) Emrakul, but counters can interact with the other aspects of their combo. If they put in omniscience and start casting dig, REB their omniscience or counter their dig. Once Omn or Dream halls are in play the boseiju does nothing. They still need to cheatcast more cards to win, and we can counter all of those. If you count snapcaster and CB, we should have 2-3x more counters than they do post board. If they did not have Boseiju, omnitell would be one of our best matchups. 2-3 cards don't suddenly make any matchup unwinnable...Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
...Unless those 2 cards are Eye of Ugin and Emrakul. MUD is nothing like Turbo Eldrazi. We lose to Turbo Eldrazi because they can consistently fishbowl finding/hardcasting emrkul by turn 7ish. MUD cant do that. All it does play a bunch of taxing effects we dont care about that much and big threats we have counter/remove. As you mentioned, sundering titan or also Ugin/Karn are the scariest of them, but a resolved wurmcoil, steel hellkite or lodestone are effectively the same a tarmogoyf to miracles. Snaps, Jace, FoW, Coutnerspell more amazing than usual in this matchup. Removal is obviously nice to find too.
I would sideboard like this vs MUD:
-4 CB
-4 Ponder
+2 Clique (bring in all 3 if you have them)
+1 Disenchant
+1 EE
+1 Verdict (debatable)
+1 Counterspell
+1 Entreat
+1 Needle
I know I have done nothing but rave about ponder the last few pages, but chalice/trisphere decks are basically the only time its bad. Too often it will just sit in your hand. As dragonslayer mentioned, CB isnt actually useless and I would not mind seeing one game 1. Its simply worse than the SB cards.
Maybe I am just lucky but I have never lost a round to Omnitell or MUD. I would much rather play against either of those decks than a stifle deck or Shardless.
vs MUD
If MUD gets an explosive opening hand, you're dead. Let it be turn 1 Chalice/3Sphere or any other artifact ridiculousness. If you want to beat MUD, you could, you just have to dedicate SB slot to it, but lots of people refuse to do that, that's the beauty of Legacy in my opinion. When the opening is not as explosive, make the best trade you can. Don't be trigger happy to get rid of stuff like Monolith. Chalice/Sundering Titan/Staff of Nin/Planeswalker(s) are the real must counters. Everything else can be done via creature removal. EE and Council are pretty good, do consider them if they're not in your 75.
This is the MU where I would argue Clique doing better than Snapcaster. Clique doesn't suffer from 3Sphere, can kill a Lonestone golem, actually gets rid of the big CMC artifact threat. If you actually get to a point where you can flashback a CMC 1 or a disenchant via Snapcaster, MUD most likely had a crappy start and you're most likely to win anyway.
vs Omni
Sneak and Show runs Blood Moon SB, at least you don't need to worry about that in Omni. The best way to fight Omni is Clique. Often I see miracle players leaving Clique for CB flip, way too passive. If you trade ok against Omni after a counter war, it's still possible for Omni to stick Omni itself into play, but no threat to play for free and not enough gold-fishing left. At that point, it's a race to try to find removal like disenchant.
In Legacy you have deck specialists, if that's the only deck he plays, the skill level might be the determining factor.
Against MUD Moat or Humility could stand a chance
Moat does not stop Forgemaster -> Spine (now your Moat's gone), does not interact with Staff of Domination + Metalworker.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13reaper666
The problem is still
Cavern naming construct -> Metalworker -> threats (at least you can try to get rid of Metalworker to disrupt)
or
Cavern naming golem -> Sundering Titan -> threats when you have no lands
Humility is great, except it cannot save itself from eye of Ugin -> Ulamog in the 12 Post, making Humility a bit narrow.
I been running into Boseju Omni Tell which runs 3-4 Boseju online. Boseju to cast Show and Tell an Omni and then Cast Emrakul. Is it worth running Meddling Mages to name Show and Tell, or Blood moons or Wasteland?
No, there is no need to pollute the deck with bad cards. You just need to aggressively find Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianeira
Except that Vendilion Clique is a 3/1 that cycles 1 card from their hand. If you clique them and they have a redundant hand you loose. I played clique into a hand with reanimate and exhume last time I played. Sometimes cards isn't as strong as advertised.Quote:
Originally Posted by haxorz
Meddling mage is a strong sideboard card and we very rarely keep terminus in against decks that Meddling Mage is strong against. Problem is that you need a few in your board to make a difference, maybe 3.
He's responding to Omni-tell MU, and now you want to jam Reanimator MU into discussion for no good reasons. Please don't tell us you intend to replace your Clique SB with Meddling Mage. Unless it's for your LGS meta, there's no good reasons for Ponder Miracle players to deviate from Ein's latest SB when you're against a wide field.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
Force of Will is bad. I Forced my opponent's Burning Wish, but they Forced back and I lost. Considering cutting it for a Nevermore.
It is the same idea, read the lines before. If you clique your opponent and he has two of the cards he needs your clique will not work as intended. Clique is not a solution for every situation and can not be used as a catch all card. Secondly, can we please have a discussion regarding cards and sideboards and looking a bit wider than just one 75 card pile? I play 1 clique main and 1 side, I have room for meddling mages.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Meddling mage is fine actually. I have run 2-3 in Miracles before and he was great. He is very good against basically any combo deck. I would not just cut clique for him though, clique is also very important for dealing with control and Lily decks. 2 MM, 2 Clique would probably be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianeira
Again, having stuff like Karakas, Jace, Venser, CJ, etc helps too. The last time an opponent went boseju>S&T>Emrakul, I put in an island, untapped and cast turn 3 jace and it was gg.
And that is the reason to play Karakas in your 75. If they have mutiple cards you just clique them twice in 1 round. Or if you donīt have the mana at end of their turn and at the end of their drawstep in the next round.Quote:
UseL
It is the same idea, read the lines before. If you clique your opponent and he has two of the cards he needs your clique will not work as intended. Clique is not a solution for every situation and can not be used as a catch all card.
Trust me Karakas is just such a great untility land that you want to play at least 1 of it in your deck if it uses white Mana.
If you compare Meddling Mage to Cilque you will see he can be romved better than the Clique because you canīt boucne him with karakas and actually most of the time you need 2 of them to be safe from removal.
The reason is in times of A. Decay you donīt want to play a card with cmc 2 with out significant protection.
Also he canīt be cast at instant spead and sometimes this can cause you a loss.
So in comparrsion to Clique the Mage is not as flexible as the Clique. Also he is a Sorcery speed answer which is far worse than an Instant Speed answer.
It acatually is for the a great percentage of the time a catch all because it attacks the hand of the opponent.Quote:
Clique is not a solution for every situation and can not be used as a catch all card.
All in all Clique is more flexible and saver than Mage and therefore the better choice in the Sideboard and Mainboard.
MM is, however, much better vs SnT with Boseiju than Clique is, often. If you are 7 lands vs SnT, you likely already won anyhow. Also, as mentioned - Going long against a deck with 20 cantrips is usually not that good...Quote:
Originally Posted by Teveshszat