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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I haven't been too impressed with Rain of Filth after testing the no ETW/Mox version, a single Wasteland takes away too much value from your last ditch ritual compared to Cabal Ritual just naturally gaining value thru' Threshold without ever risking your manabase. Bayou is also very meh in your starting hand, I can't imagine MDing 2 being very consistent.
There are a lot of question marks left: Why did you expose the land to Wasteland? Does wasting a land make casting Cabal Ritual through Daze easier? Does a single Wasteland really make a difference for your T.hold?
It's Bayou + Swamp vs 2 Bayous. Do you want to tell me a Swamp is significantly better to get into the game than Bayou? Bayou at least casts Xantid while having a Swamp in your opener is even more limited. My manabase even has more lands so its less likely that your are stuck with only a non-blue land in your opener.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
When talking about C.Mox and exploding A.N I was refering mainly to the ability to just win on the spot once you start revealing with A.N. we need to agree both that 3 C.Moxen are better after A.N. than having 0.
Related to 2 Examples you ask me:
a)LED, LED, LED, RoF, RoF., B.W., C.M
b)LED, LED, LED, RoF, B.W., B.W., C.M
Joke.
It's a two edged Sword: You have to get to 9 mana first so the Moxen as post-AN IMS are even relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I'm still playing a Mox so that my Ad Nauseams are a little more impressive, where you opt for a 14th land. It's not Rain of Filth vs Chrome Mox, it's Chrome Mox against a second Bayou - it's a little foolish to argue otherwise as we both added in two additional rituals. Those are what's in competition. Cabal Ritual is much better at supporting: PIF, Dark Petition and floating mana into Ad Nauseam than Rain of Filth. I believe my list is faster due to the main deck four mana line that I'm not giving up on my Infernal Tutors (Empty the Warrens) along with the Additional Mox and Cabal Ritual being worthwhile on turns 1+2 unlike Rain. You lost more than one match at the GP from your notes because of this.
Less targets for Wish certainly does make it worse. But it's not about "finding a way", it's about having the right cards in the right situations.
It's Chrome Mox vs. Bayou and two freed SB slots as I don't have to run Carpets against Tempo/Delver. Cabal Ritual sucks in terms of floating mana unless you have t.hold which is kinda tricky to achieve, if we tend to cut Ponders postboard for solutions. There is no guarantee that I would have won these matches with Moxen and EtW in the deck, but I would have lost one or the other game without Rains manaboost. Everything comes at a price, but I have to resist your idea that the deck is to blame for losses like the one against Elves. For Gods sake, I had two mana float, what can I ask more for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kkkant
I know this question will haunt me forever, but has anyone ever tried pyromancer ascension as a SB option?
I've tried it this week and work out awesomely vs miracles, chalice.decks and grindy matchups.
Consider that people dont tend to bring in GY hate against us (at least people that can note the difference between ANT and TES) and we play 8 playsets (BS Ponder GP IF BW DR RoF CT),making it really easy to activate.
The games i played it, i managed to get it online a couple of turn after and then it simply went out of hands.
Getting PA online with Infernals, Wishes and Rituals is counterintuitive and most Miracles players board Wear/Tear anyways for the manacosts so you're fucked as they can counter the PA or destroy it with the same card. I have toyed with it in ANT which has even more cantrips and it was still far from worth it's slots.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hey boys!
an idea came to my mind to fight Miracles! Im not sure if this I'll have enough side space....
playing 4 Dark Confidant plus 4 A.Decay.
BoB is itself a must threat to answer, which can be played soon turn 2 at its worst.
once BoB is on the table and you start to draw cards even if C.B. is landed you will get more chances to draw A.decay!
it is like playing a small EtW withouth investing too much resources or 0 resources. Once it is on the table just you need 1 turn to make sure at least 1 card is drawn so again the Opp. will obtain card disdvantage.
I believe it is like playing 4 EtW in terms of threatining - sure EtW will win the opp. if there is no answers to , but the difference is that if Opp. can answer EtW in the following 2 or 3 turns you are in a very bad position. IF the Opp. can answer BoB in the 2nd or 3rd turn you'll be in a veeery good position.
Well I'll start to test this approach...
This even has synergy with the idea of ovearload my Side with more Discard instead of Xantids because you now can discard more threats vs a) my BoB b) my Win. now Omnishow is lacking Leyline!
This is just theory...
Opinions?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Hey boys!
an idea came to my mind to fight Miracles! Im not sure if this I'll have enough side space....
playing 4 Dark Confidant plus 4 A.Decay.
BoB is itself a must threat to answer, which can be played soon turn 2 at its worst.
once BoB is on the table and you start to draw cards even if C.B. is landed you will get more chances to draw A.decay!
it is like playing a small EtW withouth investing too much resources or 0 resources. Once it is on the table just you need 1 turn to make sure at least 1 card is drawn so again the Opp. will obtain card disdvantage.
I believe it is like playing 4 EtW in terms of threatining - sure EtW will win the opp. if there is no answers to , but the difference is that if Opp. can answer EtW in the following 2 or 3 turns you are in a very bad position. IF the Opp. can answer BoB in the 2nd or 3rd turn you'll be in a veeery good position.
Well I'll start to test this approach...
This even has synergy with the idea of ovearload my Side with more Discard instead of Xantids because you now can discard more threats vs a) my BoB b) my Win. now Omnishow is lacking Leyline!
This is just theory...
Opinions?
Having tested Bob and actually playing AD in ANT I think I can say something about that topic.
For me, Bob is awful, he does not threaten their life and he isn't helping us win. In order to win against miracles, you have to be either quick qith discard-backup, or fight through their hate. So if they have counters you need to have your swarms or discard ready, if they have CB/TOP you need to have your AD or Krosan Grip ready. If you don't you simply loose.
So I played in Lille against Miracles from the board (EDIT:beating every Miracles opponent):
4 AD
2 KG
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Swarm
Nowadays I think I would prefer Young Pyromancer, who with also very low cost may give you another angle of winning: combat damage, which Bob does not provide since you can almost never attack safely.
Due to the success of Mentor, I am testing 3 Sulfur Elementals right now instead of Krosan Grip and cards like Dread of Night.
He is good against DnT, Loam playing Thalia now and blocking Hatebears, and good against Mentor.
If not, it is just an EOT (mostly) uncounterable 3-Power-beater against Miracles.
So far I was very pleased with him, cause people do not expect him, and that is when he is best (sounds true for almost every sideboard tech of combo... :> )
my2cents.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
If Bob survives two full turns he's CA +1 only but can be plowed or blocked (Meddling Mage, Clique, Mentor, etc.). You could run Nights Whisper and have a better effect for the cost which doesn't require you to slowroll against Counterbalance/Clique/etc in the first place.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Not to say playing Bob is a good idea, but I'm quite sure his point was that Bob needs an answer in some way or an other, and the sooner the better, while I would let my opponent cast all the Sign in Blood and Night Whispers he wants.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Yeah... doesn't seem so good idea... anyway I maybe test
I was thinking on this approach because as I still play C.Moxen and Petals it could be a good approach for first turns... taking some lifes - 2 or 4 should be enough and next use tendrils.
Seems that the IllCanone Aproach is the best one... I already play 4 A.D. 2-3 Xantids maybe adding 2 more krosans... could help even more - it seems such a specific card... snif.
IllCanone how do specific side in and out vs Miracles with so many cards dedicated?
EDIT: Yes LDX my point was that! it is just a Threat which needs to be answered and makes you draw into A.D.
I saw a card anyway I dont remember its name - it is a Enchantment which makes phase out things - it seems to me ok, but not sure - this is polivalent as can answer both C.B. and senseis. I'm not sure if this also phases out M.Mages...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I saw a card anyway I dont remember its name - it is a Enchantment which makes phase out things - it seems to me ok, but not sure - this is polivalent as can answer both C.B. and senseis. I'm not sure if this also phases out M.Mages...
You probably mean Teferi's Realm.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
As I said, I am playing ANT and not TES, but anyway:
Roughly I board like that:
(Lille SB)
-1 Swamp
-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 PiF
-3 Preordain
-1 Cabal Ritual
+3 Swarm
+4 AD
+1 Nauseam
+2 Grip
But as I said, right now I like running SB's like this:
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Swarm
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Grip
To the Realm: I guess Miracles opponent just chooses Creatures everytime and calls it a day...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
There are a lot of question marks left: Why did you expose the land to Wasteland? Does wasting a land make casting Cabal Ritual through Daze easier? Does a single Wasteland really make a difference for your T.hold?
It's Bayou + Swamp vs 2 Bayous. Do you want to tell me a Swamp is significantly better to get into the game than Bayou? Bayou at least casts Xantid while having a Swamp in your opener is even more limited. My manabase even has more lands so its less likely that your are stuck with only a non-blue land in your opener.
It's Chrome Mox vs. Bayou and two freed SB slots as I don't have to run Carpets against Tempo/Delver. Cabal Ritual sucks in terms of floating mana unless you have t.hold which is kinda tricky to achieve, if we tend to cut Ponders postboard for solutions. There is no guarantee that I would have won these matches with Moxen and EtW in the deck, but I would have lost one or the other game without Rains manaboost. Everything comes at a price, but I have to resist your idea that the deck is to blame for losses like the one against Elves. For Gods sake, I had two mana float, what can I ask more for?
Swamp is strictly better than Bayou G1 and possibly better than Bayou G2 depending on your match up i.e. it's a liability vs Wasteland.dec while being a benefit vs Miracles - I still prefer the stability of Swamp.
Getting lands Wastelanded happens, you don't always get to Fetch for Swamp or sit on Fetchlands, the EV of the card off the ANT chain goes down as Wastelands are played while the EV of Cabal Ritual only goes up as the game is played. I'm not really sure which of the two is better in your hand, Rain of Filth may have the edge there. It feels like a lot of mediocre choices to choose from, I'm not really happy with any of them.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IlCannone
As I said, I am playing ANT and not TES, but anyway:
Roughly I board like that:
(Lille SB)
-1 Swamp
-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 PiF
-3 Preordain
-1 Cabal Ritual
+3 Swarm
+4 AD
+1 Nauseam
+2 Grip
But as I said, right now I like running SB's like this:
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Swarm
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Grip
To the Realm: I guess Miracles opponent just chooses Creatures everytime and calls it a day...
By the moment, I've purchaed 4 of these cards - I'm planning to make a rough testing - holidays is coming soon!!.
The good thing about Realm is that you on your upkeep can choose or HateBear or Coutenrbalance or Senseis, even I believe if 2 realm are in play you can choose C.B. and X. however the problem is still the same - this does not Work vs a landed C.B....
Related to you side, I surprise you board out 4 threapies. tell me why please. I undestand this is because if c.b. is in the Opp. hand you'd prefer to just use duress, however only 3 duress (I assume) and 3 Xantids seems to me few disruption cards...
I also think that having so much anti C.B. hate then when you play any duress, I think it is better to hold it for the mid-late game as you will not prefer to discard a c.b. if you have 6 dedicated slots to it - for this reason will not be better to side out Duress instead. which also has synergy with Xantid?
Anyway I'll try to make tests based on +2 Krosan likely in adition to my configuration and see what happens...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Swamp is strictly better than Bayou G1 and possibly better than Bayou G2 depending on your match up i.e. it's a liability vs Wasteland.dec while being a benefit vs Miracles - I still prefer the stability of Swamp.
Getting lands Wastelanded happens, you don't always get to Fetch for Swamp or sit on Fetchlands, the EV of the card off the ANT chain goes down as Wastelands are played while the EV of Cabal Ritual only goes up as the game is played. I'm not really sure which of the two is better in your hand, Rain of Filth may have the edge there. It feels like a lot of mediocre choices to choose from, I'm not really happy with any of them.
It's not that the base with Bayou + Swamp prevent you from ending up with a Bayou in your starting grip or that a Swamp joining a hand with cantrips, which isn't the definition of "stability", especially if the number of discard spells got reduced to make the "Fetch -> Swamp -> Discard" opening less likely to occur anyways, which acted as a selling point for Swamp against FoW + Wasteland as you sure remember.
What I miss is a word on the increased number of lands total and fetches in paticular, if you complain about seeing a Bayou in hand or facing Wasteland. The build banks on dropping your second land turn 2 and keeping a hand without two IMS or blue land + cantrips isn't going to fly, unless it can kill T1/2 by itself. You also ignore how bad Swamp + Xantid is in your starting grip compared to Bayou + Xantid. Combinations of Swamp+Volcanic or Swamp+Sea if you boarded Decays are totally iffy.
The value of Rain goes down, if you get wastelanded, but it's not Rains job to help against Wasteland, but the duty of the increased landcount, which feed the Rains to overcome Daze and Spell Pierce in a symbiose later in the game while you are able to steer the impact and timing of Wasteland to some extent with your Fetchlands. Aggressive cantripping is a no-go against Wasteland of course, but Probe helps to make the right choices.
Cabal and Rain are both options for longer games, but getting to t.hold isn't quite easy, if you run Wishes instead of more cantrips like ANT and, on top of that, usually cut cantrips postboard for hate. If you don't get t.hold online by turn 4 or even later (thanks to DRS), like it happend to me several times in testing, you start to question the value of Cabal Rituals.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
It's not that the base with Bayou + Swamp prevent you from ending up with a Bayou in your starting grip or that a Swamp joining a hand with cantrips, which isn't the definition of "stability", especially if the number of discard spells got reduced to make the "Fetch -> Swamp -> Discard" opening less likely to occur anyways, which acted as a selling point for Swamp against FoW + Wasteland as you sure remember.
What I miss is a word on the increased number of lands total and fetches in paticular, if you complain about seeing a Bayou in hand or facing Wasteland. The build banks on dropping your second land turn 2 and keeping a hand without two IMS or blue land + cantrips isn't going to fly, unless it can kill T1/2 by itself. You also ignore how bad Swamp + Xantid is in your starting grip compared to Bayou + Xantid. Combinations of Swamp+Volcanic or Swamp+Sea if you boarded Decays are totally iffy.
The value of Rain goes down, if you get wastelanded, but it's not Rains job to help against Wasteland, but the duty of the increased landcount, which feed the Rains to overcome Daze and Spell Pierce in a symbiose later in the game while you are able to steer the impact and timing of Wasteland to some extent with your Fetchlands. Aggressive cantripping is a no-go against Wasteland of course, but Probe helps to make the right choices.
Cabal and Rain are both options for longer games, but getting to t.hold isn't quite easy, if you run Wishes instead of more cantrips like ANT and, on top of that, usually cut cantrips postboard for hate. If you don't get t.hold online by turn 4 or even later (thanks to DRS), like it happend to me several times in testing, you start to question the value of Cabal Rituals.
There's so many things wrong with this. Stability isn't defined by casting cantrips, the number was reduced from seven to six discard spells and it's barely noticeable. Not to mention, there's still Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor to be cast of it in the face of Wasteland. Also, my list does board in the Thoughtseize in some match-ups which would make the number seven again.
You can certainly complain about Bayou in the face of Wasteland when you're cutting a basic for it. Most hands only need one mana source to stick in an attempt to combo (by either dropping a dual/cracking a fetch), swamp does this very effectively. Also, you mention siding out cantrips to support Bayou but then use Swamp's not casting them against it - it doesn't make any sense. You cut Xantid, I find that a weakness in your argument.
It's not Rain's fault when you get Wastelanded, but you're adding in more Wasteland targets over mana sources that can't be destroyed (Chrome Mox/Swamp).
Have you ever actually tested Cabal Ritual? I mean, I've had it being Threshold on turn two numerous times, almost every game by turn three and even a few rare turn 1's before Ad Nauseam. It's considerably faster than waiting to build up 3-5 lands in the face of Wasteland. Cabal Ritual is way better in the mid-to-late game and has applications with other cards in our deck (PIF/Dark Petition).
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@Bryant, do you plan on writing anything regarding how and when to use Petition? Myself (and I assume many others) have not had a chance to test it yet and I'd love a bit of insight into how the card performs before I try to fit it into my list.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
There's so many things wrong with this. Stability isn't defined by casting cantrips, the number was reduced from seven to six discard spells and it's barely noticeable. Not to mention, there's still Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor to be cast of it in the face of Wasteland. Also, my list does board in the Thoughtseize in some match-ups which would make the number seven again.
Do you board Thoughtseize against Wasteland decks like Tempo/Delver or Lands where opening with a Swamp makes a difference in terms of stability against Wasteland?
You can see it the other way: I actually replaced the Swamp with a Fetchland. Suddenly the whole argument of "stability against Wasteland" turns wack. I mean, you said it before as you mentioned that I "replaced a Mox with a Bayou", so gauging 8th Fech vs Swamp is the more accurate point I should have mentioned
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
You can certainly complain about Bayou in the face of Wasteland when you're cutting a basic for it. Most hands only need one mana source to stick in an attempt to combo (by either dropping a dual/cracking a fetch), swamp does this very effectively. Also, you mention siding out cantrips to support Bayou but then use Swamp's not casting them against it - it doesn't make any sense. You cut Xantid, I find that a weakness in your argument.
See above. Stick to the logic of "Swamp->Fetchland / Mox->Bayou". A Fetchland sticks in the face of Wasteland. Bayou > Mox against Daze. Win-win.
The point about cantripping was in context of running more blue sources overall (thanks to additional Fechland) compared to your manabase. I'm less likely to get stuck with a single non-blue land which, in case of the Swamp dös not help with Xantid or Decay in postboard games
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
t's not Rain's fault when you get Wastelanded, but you're adding in more Wasteland targets over mana sources that can't be destroyed (Chrome Mox/Swamp).
Yeah, 1 have 1 potential target more in my 60. That however doesn't mean I have to expose one more target per game against Wasteland per sé. The game against lands.dec was a perfect example for that theory working in a tournament. By running more lands I can also recover much better by running more lands than stuff like Chrome Mox, which I heared isn't quite amazing if your opponent is also running Chalice/Thorns/Trinisphere (looking at Lands/MUD/Painter/etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Have you ever actually tested Cabal Ritual? I mean, I've had it being Threshold on turn two numerous times, almost every game by turn three and even a few rare turn 1's before Ad Nauseam. It's considerably faster than waiting to build up 3-5 lands in the face of Wasteland. Cabal Ritual is way better in the mid-to-late game and has applications with other cards in our deck (PIF/Dark Petition).
The last time you ran a 2/1 Splitt of Cabal Ritual/Mox (back with Gemstone Mines and the argument you can just keep tapping them to destroy them yourself to Get t.hold) you dismissed the option a while later because the Ad Nauseams were so bad (most likely linked to the t.hold issue and being unable to float mana) and even if I'm sure that running a fetch/Dual base improved the Cabals, I doubt it's THAT MUCH of a leap if cantrips remain our primary boarding slots. I hope you don't want to make a point based on hilarious T1 t.hold goldfishing.
What was changed that your previous issues with Cabal Ritual are now seem gone for you?
Of course I have toyed with the list before Lille and I wasn't impressed that Cabal Ritual did nothing to support my Position against Shardless or Delver variants which I felt was required. For me it wasn't appealing to ground my potentially long game against stuff like DRS or Daze on Chrome Mox/CabalRitual/PastInFlames rather than dropping lands and Tutor/cantrip-chain them out if the game. If I opt to drop lands and ignore DRS/Daze/Pierce, while minimizing damage of AN in general and aim on ramping up from a single black mana post-AN only, Rain is a much better card than Cabal Ritual.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Do you board Thoughtseize against Wasteland decks like Tempo/Delver or Lands where opening with a Swamp makes a difference in terms of stability against Wasteland?
You can see it the other way: I actually replaced the Swamp with a Fetchland. Suddenly the whole argument of "stability against Wasteland" turns wack. I mean, you said it before as you mentioned that I "replaced a Mox with a Bayou", so gauging 8th Fech vs Swamp is the more accurate point I should have mentioned
I do, I side in Thoughtseize against some mid-range hate bear decks, MUD and Lands. You're avoiding the real issue here in an attempt to act cute, a deck is a combination of parts. The two slots in question are what we're really talking about and not slot 59 vs slot 60. Mox & Swamp are both indestructible against Wasteland, Mox is better in the main deck as we're an Ad Nauseam centric deck. The impact of a Chrome Mox is considerably higher both pre and post Ad Nauseam compared to an off-color destructible Swamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
See above. Stick to the logic of "Swamp->Fetchland / Mox->Bayou". A Fetchland sticks in the face of Wasteland. Bayou > Mox against Daze. Win-win.
The point about cantripping was in context of running more blue sources overall (thanks to additional Fechland) compared to your manabase. I'm less likely to get stuck with a single non-blue land which, in case of the Swamp dös not help with Xantid or Decay in postboard games
Being slower versus Thalia / Bayou doesn't provide an initial mana source post-Ad Nauseam, you "Lose-Lose". It's easy to throw out situations in a vacuum.
As I've stated, you don't even run Xantid anymore. You're just using it now as a crutch for a poor argument. You don't need multiple green mana sources in post-board games, especially at the cost of being worse against Wasteland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Yeah, 1 have 1 potential target more in my 60. That however doesn't mean I have to expose one more target per game against Wasteland per sé. The game against lands.dec was a perfect example for that theory working in a tournament. By running more lands I can also recover much better by running more lands than stuff like Chrome Mox, which I heared isn't quite amazing if your opponent is also running Chalice/Thorns/Trinisphere (looking at Lands/MUD/Painter/etc.)
Chrome Mox is great against those decks, it means you can kill faster and more efficiently. You also don't lose games against Elves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The last time you ran a 2/1 Splitt of Cabal Ritual/Mox (back with Gemstone Mines and the argument you can just keep tapping them to destroy them yourself to Get t.hold) you dismissed the option a while later because the Ad Nauseams were so bad (most likely linked to the t.hold issue and being unable to float mana) and even if I'm sure that running a fetch/Dual base improved the Cabals, I doubt it's THAT MUCH of a leap if cantrips remain our primary boarding slots. I hope you don't want to make a point based on hilarious T1 t.hold goldfishing.
What was changed that your previous issues with Cabal Ritual are now seem gone for you?
I've answered this multiple times now, the difference is the main deck Empty the Warrens. In previous attempts, the deck lacked Empty, where my current list there is no lack of speed.
As for Threshold, it's considerably easier due to the increased number of fetch lands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Of course I have toyed with the list before Lille and I wasn't impressed that Cabal Ritual did nothing to support my Position against Shardless or Delver variants which I felt was required. For me it wasn't appealing to ground my potentially long game against stuff like DRS or Daze on Chrome Mox/CabalRitual/PastInFlames rather than dropping lands and Tutor/cantrip-chain them out if the game. If I opt to drop lands and ignore DRS/Daze/Pierce, while minimizing damage of AN in general and aim on ramping up from a single black mana post-AN only, Rain is a much better card than Cabal Ritual.
Shardless is a great match-up anyway, you shouldn't be trying to improve that. Not to mention Cabal Ritual is terrific in that match-up due to no soft-counters plus its amazing after their discard. Why are you trying to play a turn 4 combo deck? That's what doesn't make any sense to me. You might as well be playing Spiral Tide. Your views are definitely skewed on this one, I honestly believe it's from a lack of real testing and not wanting to acquire different foil fetchlands than Misty Rainforests.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I do, I side in Thoughtseize against some mid-range hate bear decks, MUD and Lands. You're avoiding the real issue here in an attempt to act cute, a deck is a combination of parts. The two slots in question are what we're really talking about and not slot 59 vs slot 60. Mox & Swamp are both indestructible against Wasteland, Mox is better in the main deck as we're an Ad Nauseam centric deck. The impact of a Chrome Mox is considerably higher both pre and post Ad Nauseam compared to an off-color destructible Swamp.
We're talking Mox vs. Land ... 1 card out of 60. You can't seriously keep pointing at improved Ad Nauseams, if you run a higher average cmc as I do and 4cc Sorceries to reveal to the 5cc Instant. Lets put it that way: If I would have flipped the Mox to th AN cast against Elves in game 2 it would have changed absolutely nothing at all (stranded at 5 mana instead of 4), but flipping EtW at any point would have made the situation much worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Being slower versus Thalia / Bayou doesn't provide an initial mana source post-Ad Nauseam, you "Lose-Lose". It's easy to throw out situations in a vacuum.
I have won my only match against Thalia.dec that weekend / Cabal Ritual is crap post-AN if you can't find/float a full two (initial) mana. If you want to stop with me talking situations and cards in a vacuum, I would prefer, if you would reciprocate the favor. Pointing at best case scenarios like your turn 1 t.hold for Cabal Ritual isn't getting us anywhere as well. Same is true for AN flips pointing to the sole Chrome Mox, but not to the 2cc Rituals and EtW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
As I've stated, you don't even run Xantid anymore. You're just using it now as a crutch for a poor argument. You don't need multiple green mana sources in post-board games, especially at the cost of being worse against Wasteland.
Haven't played since the GP and the GP list had three Xantids. The pure speculation about reducing/replacing Xantids isn't a fundament to dismiss SB options, if we discuss Bayou/Swamp. It's not about about multiple green sources, bu about maintaining a fetchable one even if your opponent can take out one ... but you know that already ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Chrome Mox is great against those decks, it means you can kill faster and more efficiently. You also don't lose games against Elves.
No need to play dirty here. I choose to not not die to 4cc flips of AN or to Delver beats, because I can't get around fucking Daze if I 2-for-1 myself just for 1 mana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Shardless is a great match-up anyway, you shouldn't be trying to improve that. Not to mention Cabal Ritual is terrific in that match-up due to no soft-counters plus its amazing after their discard. Why are you trying to play a turn 4 combo deck? That's what doesn't make any sense to me. You might as well be playing Spiral Tide. Your views are definitely skewed on this one, I honestly believe it's from a lack of real testing and not wanting to acquire different foil fetchlands than Misty Rainforests.
Why am I playing suddenly a turn 4 combo deck, if I replace a Mox with a Bayou and run Rains instead of Cabal Rituals? Why is Cabal Ritual and Past In Flames any good against Deathrite Shaman? I would really apprechiate, if you would stop hyperboles or come up with hilarious stuff like financial aspects as a reason to not adapt to ideas or test them. I'm not the one of us who pimps his deck in japanese foil or clings to cards like Grapeshot
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
We're talking Mox vs. Land ... 1 card out of 60. You can't seriously keep pointing at improved Ad Nauseams, if you run a higher average cmc as I do and 4cc Sorceries to reveal to the 5cc Instant. Lets put it that way: If I would have flipped the Mox to th AN cast against Elves in game 2 it would have changed absolutely nothing at all (stranded at 5 mana instead of 4), but flipping EtW at any point would have made the situation much worse.
The average Ad Nauseam draws anywhere between 15-25 cards, are you saying that seeing anywhere between 25% to 50% of your deck and not having an initial mana source afterwards isn't relevant? I've mentioned before that I run the Empty to be faster, it's not a great reveal off of Ad Nauseam. However, if Ad Nauseam has resolved, you're already in a good spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I have won my only match against Thalia.dec that weekend / Cabal Ritual is crap post-AN if you can't find/float a full two (initial) mana. If you want to stop with me talking situations and cards in a vacuum, I would prefer, if you would reciprocate the favor. Pointing at best case scenarios like your turn 1 t.hold for Cabal Ritual isn't getting us anywhere as well. Same is true for AN flips pointing to the sole Chrome Mox, but not to the 2cc Rituals and EtW.
Cabal Ritual is actually decent post-Ad Nauseam as you have guaranteed Threshold and can be cast off a sole mana source if you've cast Dark Ritual which is fairly likely. I mentioned the turn one Threshold once (I've achieved it more times than it's been mentioned), you're the only one dwelling on it. As I stated above, with the percentages, Chrome Mox vs Bayou is very relevant when talking post-Ad Nauseam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
No need to play dirty here. I choose to not not die to 4cc flips of AN or to Delver beats, because I can't get around fucking Daze if I 2-for-1 myself just for 1 mana.
Then Brainstorm it away or take the one time 2-for-1, it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. The card is very similar to Tendrils of Agony, where you never want it in your opening hand but you're always please to see it post-Ad Nauseam. There's a reason it's run in few copies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Why am I playing suddenly a turn 4 combo deck, if I replace a Mox with a Bayou and run Rains instead of Cabal Rituals? Why is Cabal Ritual and Past In Flames any good against Deathrite Shaman? I would really apprechiate, if you would stop hyperboles or come up with hilarious stuff like financial aspects as a reason to not adapt to ideas or test them. I'm not the one of us who pimps his deck in japanese foil or clings to cards like Grapeshot
Because additional lands and Rain of Filth are slow – that's why. I didn't say Cabal Ritual was great against Deathrite Shaman, I said the card was good against Shardless (and it is), Deathrite is only a card a turn and the deck is capable of putting more in the graveyard than that. Even if it isn't, the one mana alone is still fine.
As for the Misty comment, I honestly believe it to be true. I do pimp my decks, but I don't let it influence me from playing the proper cards (Look at Grapeshot for example, am I "clinging to it"? - it's not in my 75), if it was right to be playing Mistys I would be sliding those Japanese Foils in right with the others!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Bryant, I took a glimpse read on the new sideboard changes and noticed the changes on Burn. +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Duress. Some questions:
1a) Are the Abrupt Decay only for creature removal, or do you expect a shift and Burn playing Trinisphere/Chalice/etc. ?
1b) In case of creature removal only, if you had a Grapeshot or a Pyroclasm in your sideboard, would you board it instead of an Abrupt Decay?
2) Why both CoV, but no Void Snare?
3) Why Duress over Ponder?
Thank you!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Bryant, I took a glimpse read on the new sideboard changes and noticed the changes on Burn. +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Duress. Some questions:
1a) Are the Abrupt Decay only for creature removal, or do you expect a shift and Burn playing Trinisphere/Chalice/etc. ?
1b) In case of creature removal only, if you had a Grapeshot or a Pyroclasm in your sideboard, would you board it instead of an Abrupt Decay?
2) Why both CoV, but no Void Snare?
3) Why Duress over Ponder?
Thank you!
Pyrostatic Pillar ;)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Bryant, I took a glimpse read on the new sideboard changes and noticed the changes on Burn. +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Duress. Some questions:
1a) Are the Abrupt Decay only for creature removal, or do you expect a shift and Burn playing Trinisphere/Chalice/etc. ?
1b) In case of creature removal only, if you had a Grapeshot or a Pyroclasm in your sideboard, would you board it instead of an Abrupt Decay?
2) Why both CoV, but no Void Snare?
3) Why Duress over Ponder?
Thank you!
1a.) Creature removal for Eidolon. I've seen rare actual Pyrostatic Pillars, but mostly they side in Mind Break Trap.
1b.) I would side those in over an Abrupt Decay, but I would still want enough sufficient answers.
2.) Need to keep something that's wish-able to answer Eidolon.
3.) Ponder helps you dig for Decay/Chain in this match-up and helps your ability to be consistent in a shootout.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Related to the new TES Base of Bryant:
I have to say that sure we all really hate C.Mox - but I don't see any reason to run just 1 C.Mox - is it becasue it is a bad card? sure it is a bad card however this provides:
- being faster
- Better post Ad Nauseam
Even I have to say that now the unique difference from this archetype and TNT (Timo Shuneman list) is just 2 Cabal rituals less 4 RoF which are far inferior to C.R. and 1 EtW less - if you compare now the new TES archetype vs TNT it seems that TNT is much more compacted as a deck which has a real goal - I mean - with TNT you can now B.W. -> D.Petition -> PiF from Main much more often than before now you have D.P.
I'm not sure which is the derection TES is taking.
The only question I have is:
Old TES with 3 C.Moxen is faster than the New TES from Bryant?
I really do not see reasons why TES is changing so much - I only now see this deck as a TNT version with a worse Late game... I'm a bit sad about all these changes...
Don't you remember when TES played 4 C.Moxen?
Long time ago when Mystical Tutor was unbanned, the 4th I.F. was in side - and still 3 C.Moxen as minimum were played - why the hell such a change to just play D.P.?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
For a second I really wanted to make a useful post, but then remembered that this would require to go all over the interactions of RoF+Wish, Fetchlands+CabalRitual, CabalRitual+DarkPetition, changing metagames and relative speed of cards outside of a vacuum, so I decided to not explain all that again.
I kept doing this for a year now and decided to stop.
The ChromeMox+DarkPetition topic lately and the endless Odyssee of Rainbow Lands are really discouraging for me.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
For a second I really wanted to make a useful post, but then remembered that this would require to go all over the interactions of RoF+Wish, Fetchlands+CabalRitual, CabalRitual+DarkPetition, changing metagames and relative speed of cards outside of a vacuum, so I decided to not explain all that again.
I kept doing this for a year now and decided to stop.
The ChromeMox+DarkPetition topic lately and the endless Odyssee of Rainbow Lands are really discouraging for me.
Good, good, let the hate flow through you.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
If I remember right, when Mystical was still legal you could Wish for exited cards. Mox was a very different beast then. I don't think it's a just thread to follow, taking about that far back and such a different meta.
Love the website.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Good, good, let the hate flow through you.
This made my -otherwise shitty- day. :laugh:
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
After playing TnT with Dark Petition and Lemnear's TES, I'm starting to agree cutting Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox just makes TES into a worse version of that deck - I've had a lot of really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2 with Ad Nauseam or race with Goblins.
I also don't think Dark Petition is really worth it, it's worse than Infernal Tutor because you can't play around soft counters with it, you can't SB it in vs aggro and you frankly don't want to draw multiple Infernal Tutors compared to multiple Burning Wish in any match. I think the card is probably going to have a bigger impact in TnT for the 2 Burning Wish than it is going to have in TES, where even tho' I found it serviceable it's still awkward to the point where I'd rather just have my 3rd Duress back.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
After playing TnT with Dark Petition and Lemnear's TES, I'm starting to agree cutting Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox just makes TES into a worse version of that deck - I've had a lot of really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2 with Ad Nauseam or race with Goblins.
I also don't think Dark Petition is really worth it, it's worse than Infernal Tutor because you can't play around soft counters with it, you can't SB it in vs aggro and you frankly don't want to draw multiple Infernal Tutors compared to multiple Burning Wish in any match. I think the card is probably going to have a bigger impact in TnT for the 2 Burning Wish than it is going to have in TES, where even tho' I found it serviceable it's still awkward to the point where I'd rather just have my 3rd Duress back.
I have two questions: "Worse version" against D&T in comparison to which version? 2/1 Cabal/Mox or the 3 Mox one? Do you think its any fair to gauge the build simply how it fares against a single deck which has 2% metagame represenation rather than against the 70%+ blue decks it was tuned for and call it "bad" simply because of that?
Let me put it that way: If all you care for are the T1 combos, you should play Belcher, because TES is "a worse version of that deck" and you evade the "really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2"
Edit: Just in case some peeps still not figured out why I'm so pissed, let me state that its simply because no one bothers to evaluate the changes made in context of the actual metagame ( which can be wrong, unnecessary, helpful , etc. which time would tell), but keeps pointing to a fawking single fringe matchup which I'm intentionally gave away a few percentages. No, i have to correct myself, as the question wasn't if and how the build beats D&T, but simply if the deck can combo before your opponent had their turn 2. No one is looking at my significant plus of lands/CoV/Decay and asks how that works against Chalice/Thorn/Daze/Wasteland/etc. even if I covered how that core beat double chalice in a GP. Irrelevant for some people as the deck is simply evaluated based on the ability to combo T1 (as the build with Rain goes off turn 2 regulary) and following that simple, shallow logic means that TES a worse deck than Belcher and Brainstorm is a bad card because it does not help to combo turn 1 either /rant
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I have two questions: "Worse version" against D&T in comparison to which version? 2/1 Cabal/Mox or the 3 Mox one? Do you think its any fair to gauge the build
simply how it fares against a single deck which has 2% metagame represenation rather than against the 70%+ blue decks it was tuned for and call it "bad" simply because of that?
Let me put it that way: If all you care for are the T1 combos, you should play Belcher, because TES is "a worse version of that deck" and you evade the "really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2"
Edit: Just in case some peeps still not figured out why I'm so pissed, let me state that its simply because no one bothers to evaluate the changes made in context of the actual metagame ( which can be wrong, unnecessary, helpful , etc. which time would tell), but keeps pointing to a fawking single fringe matchup which I'm intentionally gave away a few percentages. No, i have to correct myself, as the question wasn't if and how the build beats D&T, but simply if the deck can combo before your opponent had their turn 2. No one is looking at my significant plus of lands/CoV/Decay and asks how that works against Chalice/Thorn/Daze/Wasteland/etc. even if I covered how that core beat double chalice in a GP. Irrelevant for some people as the deck is simply evaluated based on the ability to combo T1 (as the build with Rain goes off turn 2 regulary) and following that simple, shallow logic means that TES a worse deck than Belcher and Brainstorm is a bad card because it does not help to combo turn 1 either /rant
You have a really serious problem in thinking everything you do, no matter how speculative, is the next evolution of TES as opposed to having any objectivity for different player experiences with varrying deck lists and then have the fucking audacity to straw man the whole thread with ridiculous comparisons? I'm not even going to bother addressing your insipidly stupid comments regarding TES being a worse Belcher, but your deck is a WORSE TnT and I actually bothered to test both vs prison decks in order to figure out what the difference in the fundamental turn was from TES and it's pretty damn significant.
When I went to cut Xantid Swarm and Chain of Vapour in order to play other cards in the aggro-control match up, all of a sudden D&T was the boogie man that would get me for not SBing bounce. But as soon as I started testing the speed of your deck in order to see how often I had to wait until T3 to go off, all of a sudden it's only 2% of the metagame now like RUG was 2% of the metagame then? Man, those numbers are really convenient any time you need to pull them out of your ass ... Sorry, but I really don't see the point in slowing the deck down only to have worse rituals than Cabal Rituals, and that includes both Rite of Flame and Rain of Filth. If you're going to play a Storm deck mainly metagamed vs Island.dec, then I'm not really sure TES is the best shell to do that as having the speed to race discard on the play, hate bears on the draw etc. while still having a middle game is kind of the entire appeal of the deck. What makes your deck really any better than ANT.TnT if that's all you are trying to achieve? I just found myself being slower overall compared to TES and having to gamble on Ad Nauseams with no Chrome Mox to offset low life totals compared to going for the Past/Tendril kill.
Get over yourself, the deck has obvious problems and the benefits over the alternatives aren't very clear.
Edit: And I don't give a shit about the link you posted either, the point of the matter is regardless of the representation you make an issue out of it at your convenience.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
After reading Bryant and Lemnear (overall Bryant comments - I love you a lot you Lemnear!!) comments I just thought in not posting for a while.... These are absolutly non constructive answers or comments.
You can not imagine Bryant how your ideas seem irrelevant to me - even I recognize you as the creator of the deck , along the time TES evolutioned, and a lot of your ideas have been contradictories and sometimes even they promoted among the comunity the not raising of new ones (I rememer Bahamut EtW or G.P. main idea much before anybody even occurred... You are the best, boy!!! As example)
I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.
Final Fortune I love you the most - your english express absolutly my thoughts.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
I have an article that discusses this coming soon
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
Ok, so I'll take the challenge to compare the two decks and list strengths and weaknesses of each deck. In the end I'll make some notes when one would be theoretically better than the other. I know this is a hated and frequently addressed topic and if someone doesn't agree that's fine by me. I left out one big personal 'pro' for TES; more fun and challenging.
TES:
Pro's:
- TES is a turn1 or 2 deck on average. This means that your opponent is usually limited to his first 7-10 cards drawn/seen which is a big difference with ANT. That also gives TES another (better) angle of attack against 2cc permanent-based hate. This is the biggest USP of TES in my oppinion.
- TES' game-winning lines are less conditional than ANT's game-winning lines; an Ad Nauseam line costs 7 mana and an ETW line costs 6. In ANT Ad Nauseam with 0 floating is often really risky and a PiF-line usually needs 7 mana, multiple rituals and often threshold.
- Due to Chrome Mox instead of lands and RoF instead of CR, a bigger ETW in the first or second turn is more likely to happen with TES than with ANT.
- LED has more affinity with TES than with ANT (due to rituals being a necessity for PiF-lines and Ad Nauseam not caring about that before resolving)
- TES can (pretty) reliably win with Ad Nauseam from >12 life.
- TES has maindeck answers to hatebears.
- TES is (usually) immune to graveyard hate (ergo doesn't mind DRS).
- TES has the option to play Silence/Orim's Chant should the metagame demand that.
- In this deck, Burning Wish (usually) does what you want a business spell to do. This makes it better than ANT's Grim Tutor, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, extra Past in Flames. In-hand Burning Wish is also better than in-hand ToA in the early game
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
- Opponents tend to play worse against TES than ANT due to inexperience (this is my personal experience though). For instance, side boarding graveyard hate.
Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has little space in it's sideboard left due to the wishboard
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does
ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's more mulligan-friendly than TES
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against soft counterspells (Daze/ Spell pierce)
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT's main win-condition is life-independent
- ANT has more free space in the sideboard
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
- ANT can cast Abrupt Decay more reliable
- ANT has more game against Chalice@1 on board
Con's:
- ANT is a full turn slower than TES
- ANT's main win-condition is impaired by graveyard hate (the extent is dependant per in-game situation)
- ANT usually plays just one win-card in the deck (1 ToA)
- Ad Nauseam (if played) is way riskier in ANT. Also, ANT's game-winning lines without using the graveyard are more conditional.
- ANT doesn't have a matching equivalent to TES' Burning Wish and has to choose for worse business-spells or playing more supportive spells.
In conclusion:
TES is better against a metagame containing fast decks, for instance; Elves, Death 'n Taxes, Dredge, Reanimator (depending on SB).
ANT is better against a metagame infested by Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland and multiple angles of opposing hate.
It must be said that experience often trumps above con's.
As it's possible I've forgotten a couple of things I'll update this post if someone has something to add. But for now, let the hate arise lol.
~Tom
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I think this list of pros and cons is pretty useful for people who have trouble deciding which list to play.
I've personally tested all versions of Storm and I go back and forth between them, though up to date my favorite list is a hybrid list between ANT and TES, something similar to TNT. I prefer TES over ANT and Grinding Station, but at the same time I feel like having access to the 4 Cabal Ritual+PiF+ToA package main, so that's how I arrived at my list.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@Tom T I think your post is very well considered and I think it's going to be really valuable to a lot of newcomers to storm - perhaps Bryant should consider even putting a version of it on his site :)
I'm just a lurker so my opinions are probably not particularly valuable, but I respect both Bryant's and Lemnear's experience playing storm so I've personally gained a lot of interesting insight from their argument. I personally am still playing Chrome Mox and no Cabal Ritual in my "TES" list, and I think that part of the problem when considering these different builds is creating this "ANT vs TES" dichotomy - the decks are so similar that I don't think it always creates value to talk about them as completely different things. Isn't it possible we could build a hybrid list with the power of Burning Wish but also the long game potential of multiple "natural" combo routes?
I am going to play Legacy in Berkeley tomorrow and I have both "ANT" (UBr, 2tendrils 2pif 1etw 0an) and "TES" (UBR, 4rof 4bw 0tendrils 1etw 1an) built - as Tom very succinctly described in his post, I'm going to choose my list according to the decks I see around the room.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.
Given Legacy was EVER 50%+ blue decks, so I have usually a bit of a problem with drawing a line somewhere between that and the 71% we have at the moment (according to MTGtop8) and the 83% we had at some point. The question however is how many of the non-blue decks you will see at the top tables and that was a lot different at a certain point in history like when Survival was on top, when Maverick was a top deck, Alara hit the stores, etc.
Printings like Enter The Infinite, Griselbrand, Omniscience, TNN, SFM, Treasure Cruise, Delver, Dig Through Time, etc. all shaped the metagame over time, but the downfall of pure aggro with Delver/SFM/TNN marks a personal cornerstone and the deck did also change over time. Just look at the landcount, which was increased over years from 11 to 13; the sideboard changed; the MB protection changed; we reduced the Moxen from 4 to 3 to 2 and increased them to 3 again; etc.
I don't see a reason you make such big waves once the Mox-count was reduced again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdnza
@Tom T I think your post is very well considered and I think it's going to be really valuable to a lot of newcomers to storm - perhaps Bryant should consider even putting a version of it on his site :)
I'm just a lurker so my opinions are probably not particularly valuable, but I respect both Bryant's and Lemnear's experience playing storm so I've personally gained a lot of interesting insight from their argument. I personally am still playing Chrome Mox and no Cabal Ritual in my "TES" list, and I think that part of the problem when considering these different builds is creating this "ANT vs TES" dichotomy - the decks are so similar that I don't think it always creates value to talk about them as completely different things. Isn't it possible we could build a hybrid list with the power of Burning Wish but also the long game potential of multiple "natural" combo routes?
I am going to play Legacy in Berkeley tomorrow and I have both "ANT" (UBr, 2tendrils 2pif 1etw 0an) and "TES" (UBR, 4rof 4bw 0tendrils 1etw 1an) built - as Tom very succinctly described in his post, I'm going to choose my list according to the decks I see around the room.
I think the distinction of storm subypes (ANT, TES, TNT) is hilariously overrated and stupid and there was an outcry that we "turned into ANT" when we decided to move away from City of Brass and Silence, ergo I'm not impressed the slightest to hear the same again in this thread when we reduce the Moxen further for more Rituals. What is new to me, is that the fuss made about 0 Moxen compared to 1 Mox left is so big.
Essentially you tune your storm deck for an expected meta and you have two extreme cornercases to build your deck. One is fragile, explosive and full of variance; the other is slow, but stable. My pendelum swings depending on how the metagame looks like and I opted to build such a hybrid which can combo turn 1/2/3 but is also able to grind out games against. It's that simple. Bryant has a build currently with that goal in mind, like I have mine. Our choices are slightly different, but the idea is the same for this metagame. Don't be distracted by the tone ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom T
Ok, so I'll take the challenge to compare the two decks and list strengths and weaknesses of each deck. In the end I'll make some notes when one would be theoretically better than the other. I know this is a hated and frequently addressed topic and if someone doesn't agree that's fine by me. I left out one big personal 'pro' for TES; more fun and challenging.
TES:
Pro's:
- TES is a turn1 or 2 deck on average. This means that your opponent is usually limited to his first 7-10 cards drawn/seen which is a big difference with ANT. That also gives TES another (better) angle of attack against 2cc permanent-based hate. This is the biggest USP of TES in my oppinion.
- TES' game-winning lines are less conditional than ANT's game-winning lines; an Ad Nauseam line costs 7 mana and an ETW line costs 6. In ANT Ad Nauseam with 0 floating is often really risky and a PiF-line usually needs 7 mana, multiple rituals and often threshold.
- Due to Chrome Mox instead of lands and RoF instead of CR, a bigger ETW in the first or second turn is more likely to happen with TES than with ANT.
- LED has more affinity with TES than with ANT (due to rituals being a necessity for PiF-lines and Ad Nauseam not caring about that before resolving)
- TES can (pretty) reliably win with Ad Nauseam from >12 life.
- TES has maindeck answers to hatebears.
- TES is (usually) immune to graveyard hate (ergo doesn't mind DRS).
- TES has the option to play Silence/Orim's Chant should the metagame demand that.
- In this deck, Burning Wish (usually) does what you want a business spell to do. This makes it better than ANT's Grim Tutor, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, extra Past in Flames. In-hand Burning Wish is also better than in-hand ToA in the early game
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
- Opponents tend to play worse against TES than ANT due to inexperience (this is my personal experience though). For instance, side boarding graveyard hate.
Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has little space in it's sideboard left due to the wishboard
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does
ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's more mulligan-friendly than TES
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against soft counterspells (Daze/ Spell pierce)
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT's main win-condition is life-independent
- ANT has more free space in the sideboard
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
- ANT can cast Abrupt Decay more reliable
- ANT has more game against Chalice@1 on board
Con's:
- ANT is a full turn slower than TES
- ANT's main win-condition is impaired by graveyard hate (the extent is dependant per in-game situation)
- ANT usually plays just one win-card in the deck (1 ToA)
- Ad Nauseam (if played) is way riskier in ANT. Also, ANT's game-winning lines without using the graveyard are more conditional.
- ANT doesn't have a matching equivalent to TES' Burning Wish and has to choose for worse business-spells or playing more supportive spells.
In conclusion:
TES is better against a metagame containing fast decks, for instance; Elves, Death 'n Taxes, Dredge, Reanimator (depending on SB).
ANT is better against a metagame infested by Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland and multiple angles of opposing hate.
It must be said that experience often trumps above con's.
As it's possible I've forgotten a couple of things I'll update this post if someone has something to add. But for now, let the hate arise lol.
~Tom
I like this one, even if it draws a clear line, where I don't necessarily see one between storm subtypes. It however grasps the two cornercases you have to look at and question yourself how to build the deck according to the metagame. Dredge/Elves/D&T don't make even close to 10% of the metagame. I drew a conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
I have an article that discusses this coming soon
Looking forward
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom T
TES:
Pro's:
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does
ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
1.) Not true.
2.) ANT has difficult opening hands as well (especially hands that are difficult to cast Past in Flames). TES having too many cantrips? This is definitely an ANT issue.
3.) I believe ANT has the same issues with Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames.
4.) No more than ANT, we play the same amount of peek effects. Except that TES gets Wish for Seize.
5.) Currently only playing one and it's not nearly as bad as people make it seem.
6.) I think they're essentially the same here.
7.) This is absolutely wrong.
8.) TES has a basic too ;-p
9.) TES I believe is better due to a higher threat density.
10.) I disagree on all 3 accounts, especially the hatebear aspect. TES is WAY better than against hatebears.
11.) It's more of a 2.5 color deck (due to PIF) where TES is 3, I think the difference here is actually very small.
12.) Due to not having a very high threat density, unlike TES!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Took the list to my 2nd ever Legacy event, the first with storm (last one was a year ago, with junk and borrowed duals).
Made top 4, lost to the same guy in swiss and top, he was playing Bug control.
Force of will, daze, spell pierce, cabal therapy and hymn to tourach... In the 5 games, the one where he didn't have Hymn was an easy win. I followed the SB guide, but I do believe carpet would have been very good. Two of the games I lost were due to graffdiggers cage, since I could wish, but never could get enough storm to kill him, since graffdiggers shuts down PiF lines. I have never played with it, but I think Ill Gotten gains would have done some work. It also kinda works like a mind twist in the early game.
Another player who sometimes plays storm, mentioned he always liked a singleton time spiral in the sideboard. I saw one scenario where it would have very likely won the game. I do understand the reasoning for it not to be run.
I think I punted a game when I was going all in t2 (before hymn), since I had seen his hand with therapy, naming force, which he discarded. He top decks ponder and casts it. I didn't know one card. He shuffled with ponder, but the card he drew after shuffling was a force... My bad I guess, I played the percentages and decided to go for it.
Fizzled an ad nauseum from 19 life in one game...
4-1 into top 8, win against elves, then lose to bug control. (In swiss beat Maverick, Punishing Jund, Rug delver, bug delver/team america, lost to Bug control)
A few packs, open the merfolk and new chandra and some duds, enough to pay for the entry and a few sideboard cards I needed to buy.
Not sold on Dark Petition... Every time I play the deck I kinda want an ad nauseum in the side, which would enable easier lines on 7 mana. Yes, if I get to nine mana I can burning wish for Dark petition to find ad nauseum, which would add a storm and not risking the 5 dmg if I hit the Maindeck ad nauseum. I guess it's due to inexperience, but there are just my thoughts.
I do need to play more, felt my games were heavily destroyed by hymn to tourach. I never had a Brainstorm to hide cards, unfortunately. From what I have seen from vids, I do try to end the games way faster than other players. Maybe I just kinda jump the gun and don't stay patient, but I think waiting is just giving opponents time to find answers.
I often made 12-16 goblins and went to town attacking. Bug control stabilized in one game at 2 life with deathrite and 2 goyfs blocking, me with 3 goblins. I have 5 lands and 2 LED in play, infernal tutor for burning wish. He has a single card in hand, dig through times, finds force + blue card. Next turn I would just tendrils with no storm for the kill.
If I was to play again today, I'd cut the Dark Petition for an ad nauseum. It might seem like a clutch having one main, one side, but for me it would enable much easier ad nauseum.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G_g
Not sold on Dark Petition... Every time I play the deck I kinda want an ad nauseum in the side, which would enable easier lines on 7 mana. Yes, if I get to nine mana I can burning wish for Dark petition to find ad nauseum, which would add a storm and not risking the 5 dmg if I hit the Maindeck ad nauseum. I guess it's due to inexperience, but there are just my thoughts.
If I was to play again today, I'd cut the Dark Petition for an ad nauseum. It might seem like a clutch having one main, one side, but for me it would enable much easier ad nauseum.
Congrats on the Top 4!
How does having an extra Ad Nauseam in the sideboard do anything? It's an instant so you can't wish for it and I can't imagine ever wanting to board into a second copy.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
It's an instant, I'm an idiot.
Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.
I do understand there is a pretty big cost to run tendrils main and I do like going for 12+ goblins, but seems possible. Another thing is a random foil I love the art, which has been so useful in my store Cube: Manaforge cinder. Obviously, it has no room in this deck, but the damn thing can fix mana colors, if that ever becomes an issue.
I'm not a brewer, but red doesn't seem mandatory in storm, now that we have Dark petition. The deck would not be the same, but I can see a deck running 4 infernal tutor and 4 dark petition with tendrils main being possible.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G_g
It's an instant, I'm an idiot.
Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.
If you can have 1 mana floating I'd pick red most of the time, because; 1. burning wish into tendrils is cheaper than infernal->wish->tendrils (which also needs LED most of the time) so red is more important and 2. red is also more important to cast EtW if your Ad Nauseam gives you crappy flips.
So, most of the time its; R>B>U.
But experience is key and eventually you should know when to pick what color depending on the situation/outs.
