[Primer] Elves!

vs Miracles I sb 4 decay, 1 thoughtseize, 2 surgical and 1 needle, taking out 3 NO (all the md ones), scooze and some combination of heritage/glimpse/cradle (usually 2/0/2, but ive done 1/1/2 and 2/1/1 before). I have MD library which helps a ton...

I have actually been winning this matchup lately, and basically I just become a shardless bug deck (which can be a difficult matchup for them). I play out resilient threats (quirion/arbor, wws/any elf) and force them to constantly deal with the board so they never get to freely make angels or go ham with mentor. decay should be saved for counterbalance and mentor ONLY, imo...but even then I have been known to decay a clique or top if the situation bodes well. The thoughtseize makes going for big turns easy mode and surgical is there mainly to disrupt miracle draws but can also just randomly take out all their termini or stop a big snapcaster play.

I was losing this matchup a lot, but changing my mindset worked well. Essentially become shardless bug that can randomly glimpse into a full grip or play an uncounterable hoof (cavern on beast is crazy good vs them unless u are under cb lock). Be patient and look for the cracks...being impatient will lose you the game every time.

oh...never crack fetches unless you absolutely need the mana. instant speed free uncounterable 1/1's are the nuts vs miracles. arbors are usually good for 4-5 pts of dmg by themselves!!! ;)

now if I can just find a reliable way to beat sneak and show... -_-

How good is leovold? I've been running silkweaver elite in that slot and it's been good with wire wood symbiote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AznSeal

How good is leovold? I've been running silkweaver elite in that slot and it's been good with wire wood symbiote.

---

Not really answering your question, but I hate playing against Leovold when I'm piloting elves. Bummer that an elf punishes us so much.

Hi, I'm looking for SB help for my local meta. The decks I see and am having trouble with are:

BR Reanimator
UB Reanimator
UR Sneak and Show
U Omni Tell

I'm running a stock NO list w/ Scooze and Rec Sage in the main. SB is:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Flex slots

Any suggestions for the flex slots and how to SB for these matchups? Thanks!

I'd encouraging watching Julian's videos as he does stream the sideboarding with explanations. With two reanimator I would also like to have a third surgical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mistercakes

I'd encouraging watching Julian's videos as he does stream the sideboarding with explanations. With two reanimator I would also like to have a third surgical.

---

Or even a Faerie Macabre or two. Not only can they hit two targets (which you might need if they Exhume) but they also don't have to pay the tax from the Chancellor because it's an ability and not a spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maermer

Hi, I'm looking for SB help for my local meta. The decks I see and am having trouble with are:

BR Reanimator
UB Reanimator
UR Sneak and Show
U Omni Tell

I'm running a stock NO list w/ Scooze and Rec Sage in the main. SB is:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Flex slots

Any suggestions for the flex slots and how to SB for these matchups? Thanks!

---

Hi dude,

just have not exact similiar meta as you but i don't feel not comfortable against any kind of reanimator or show and tell decks as well until leyline of the void great hate for grave to compare with others you can lose them very soon like by discard or cancel them anyway but for LoV is no answer in few hard matchups anyway against combo decks you are wishing other your grave hate have in your opening hand like surgical or macabre so why don't use more powerfull hate. i know that surgical have some adventiges for other decks working with top or is useful with your therapy but its just nice ..
i'm using three copies of them but maybe i'll adding fourth still no problem with mulliganing to leyline :)

for show and tell is hard way to choose some more preferable cards but i think couple of discards especially therapies should be better against combo because single duress or thoughtsieze is not enough , pithing needle should help also or krosan grip could be surprising too with omnishow.

hope my suggest helped ;)

Regarding Reanimator and Show and Tell, I board in 1 Ooze (not included in Show and Tell), 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Therapy, 3 Surgical, and 1 Leovold (total of 10 cards). I take out 3 Visionary, 3 Symbiote, 1 birchclore (I run 2), 1 Heritage Druid, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Sage. I prioritize mulling for disruption against these decks to force my opponent to mull for a hand that can beat hate. Reanimator is easier to beat than Show and Tell. Just pray they don't kill you on turn 1.

I would consider keeping in Reclamation Sage against Sneak and Black/Red reanimator. Sneak will often board in Grafdiggers Cage/blood moon, and hitting a sneak attack will happen occasionally and buy you a turn or two.

Black/Red runs a higher # of action spells since they don't have ponder and brainstorm, so they're running 2-4 Animate Dead/bring in pithing needles for deathrite/scooze, so sometimes rec sage can pull a game in your favor. It's not the best card in the matchup most of the time, but when you need it, you'll be glad it's there

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheerios

Regarding Reanimator and Show and Tell, I board in 1 Ooze (not included in Show and Tell), 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Therapy, 3 Surgical, and 1 Leovold (total of 10 cards). I take out 3 Visionary, 3 Symbiote, 1 birchclore (I run 2), 1 Heritage Druid, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Sage. I prioritize mulling for disruption against these decks to force my opponent to mull for a hand that can beat hate. Reanimator is easier to beat than Show and Tell. Just pray they don't kill you on turn 1.

---

I would rather board out simbios than visionaries, surely simbio is the star during glimpses but I find myself grinding in those mu most of the times and a free card helps quite a lot, I find simbio to be nearly useless if we are not going off anyway, and boarding out visionaries makes it even worse.

Just a note: I see people sideboarding out birchlore a lot when bringing in black spells. That is like cutting a bayou :/ Cut almost anything but birchlore if your plan is to make them discard or to abrupt decay their stuff..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shagstaman

Just a note: I see people sideboarding out birchlore a lot when bringing in black spells. That is like cutting a bayou :/ Cut almost anything but birchlore if your plan is to make them discard or to abrupt decay their stuff..

---

Postboard I almost always want to see Birchlore over Heritage Druid. The ability to play a couple creatures on t2-3 with your land drops and still have the colored mana to be proactive with your decays/additional discard is huge, and against decks with heavy removal tapping two elves is often much more realistic than tapping three.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by abombdiggity

Postboard I almost always want to see Birchlore over Heritage Druid. The ability to play a couple creatures on t2-3 with your land drops and still have the colored mana to be proactive with your decays/additional discard is huge, and against decks with heavy removal tapping two elves is often much more realistic than tapping three.

---

agreed. i always go down to 1 heritage before touching any birchlores.

This weekend I played a 49 players tournament to a 5-8 place.

I played Ruric Thar and 2 decays md .
I have been playing with 3 Quirion Rangers and never felt like I needed a 4th.

I completely dropped Progenitus, but with the rise of DnT I thinking about using him again. I belive it was its just bad luck but I had a terrible time playing against them.

Also played a Leovold MD and it was really good, replacing itself or drawing me some cards. In general I felt like he was buying me some time to combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oshikuru

Also played a Leovold MD and it was really good, replacing itself or drawing me some cards. In general I felt like he was buying me some time to combo.

---

Nice job! To piggyback off of the Leovold discussion- I've been testing a Leovold online since Louisville (probably 200 or so games, the first 40 or so with a tropical island, although I don't believe it's necessary and have since cut it).

No doubt Leovold is a very powerful card. In some matchups, he completely takes over the game and demands and answer, and even when he's removed he manages to replace himself. I'd probably even test a second out of the SB if it wasn't like 40 tickets online.

The interaction between Leovold and Tendrils of Agony is really want I want to talk about. I've picked up a few Mindbreak Trap- drawing 10+ into a game breaking spell like MBT feels really good, especially when Leo is also shutting off their cantrips and making their discard worse. In probably 35% of the games where I resolved a leovold and they were able to combo, I would draw a MBT and just win. However, Trap is also very narrow- other than Storm variants, I only bring it in against RB reanimator and Show and Tell variants that utilize Omniscience. Has anyone else been testing Mindbreak, and if so, do you think it's worthwhile? I've liked it enough to pick up my two foil copies, and there's no doubt it's impactful in the matchups we want it, but it's really only good against 15-20% of the meta at most, and there will be times I run through 3 or so leagues and don't touch it at all.

How are you all dealing with R/G lands? This match-up has been a real drag for me. Yes, Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze help, as does Surgical Extraction. But, I've lost the last 8 of 9 matches to them and was quite lucky to win the one match.

It's like fighting a spider; it attacks from multiple angles, ensnaring us at every turn. They have the (at times excruciatingly fast) Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo that sends a flying, indestructible 20/20 tentacled avatar at us. They wreck our creature base with an ever-repeating Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows romance or a singular (easily-found) Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (in the latter case, it encumbers our mana advantage). They make our attacks useless with Glacial Chasm or slow our attacks down with Maze of Ith. And they are getting the resources they need from their library (Crop Rotation and Gamble), they are getting the resources they need from their graveyard (Life from the Loam), and they are putting lots of cards onto the battlefield (Manabond and Exploration.) Lands even has the audacity to attack our lands with Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Ghost Quarter.

Has anyone found an effective strategy against this compelling foe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oshikuru

I completely dropped Progenitus, but with the rise of DnT I thinking about using him again. I belive it was its just bad luck but I had a terrible time playing against them.

---

Elves has a positive match up against Dnt. No need to bring progenitus or any other sideboard card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tormod

Elves has a positive match up against Dnt. No need to bring progenitus or any other sideboard card.

---

I definitely don't agree with this; I would bring in Abrupt Decay and any Null Rod/Pithing Needle if I have them in my sideboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henweigh

How are you all dealing with R/G lands? This match-up has been a real drag for me. Yes, Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze help, as does Surgical Extraction. But, I've lost the last 8 of 9 matches to them and was quite lucky to win the one match.

It's like fighting a spider; it attacks from multiple angles, ensnaring us at every turn. They have the (at times excruciatingly fast) Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo that sends a flying, indestructible 20/20 tentacled avatar at us. They wreck our creature base with an ever-repeating Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows romance or a singular (easily-found) Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (in the latter case, it encumbers our mana advantage). They make our attacks useless with Glacial Chasm or slow our attacks down with Maze of Ith. And they are getting the resources they need from their library (Crop Rotation and Gamble), they are getting the resources they need from their graveyard (Life from the Loam), and they are putting lots of cards onto the battlefield (Manabond and Exploration.) Lands even has the audacity to attack our lands with Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Ghost Quarter.

Has anyone found an effective strategy against this compelling foe?

---

Get a cradle/heritage up asap to counter tabernacle, if you have a quick hand is unreasonable for them to keep up with it, playing shaman of the pack/progenitus also helps immensly.
Most of the times the mu gets bad if you let them get to the late game, if it happens it's reassy helpful to keep your dryad arbor hidden in the deck and looking for a 5 mana order play, in my experience this mu is decently good, unless you let them get in control.

I 4-0'ed my last local weekly tournament and faced the following:

rd 1 BR reanimator: 2-1
rd 2 ANT: 2-0
rd 3 DNT: 2-0
rd 4 Eldrazi: 2-1

Funny thing happened on my game 1 against reanimator. I was able to win game 1 due to being on the play and having a caverned deathrite against the chancellor trigger. I got turn 1'ed on my game 2 (LOL). On my game 3, Leovold, surgical and deathrite made it difficult for my opponent. I'm still happy with Leovold but I've moved him to the SB from the main deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tormod

Elves has a positive match up against Dnt. No need to bring progenitus or any other sideboard card.

---

I normally try to avoid blanket statements and black/white reasoning...but you're wrong. DnT is a positive GAME 1 matchup. If we sideboard nothing, they actually get a ton of percentage points, especially depending on their configuration. A smart DnT player WILL punish you for fighting them on the same axis two games in a row.

Bring in decays, progenitus, and needle effects. It's not the stone cold gospel...but as close as it comes.

;)

D&T is a bye. No need for progenitus, just bring in decay and jitte if you play it, needle effects.
They cannot really punish you.

I think progenitus is really just a wasted SB slot.

Hey Guys,
i hope a question like this is ok because i have nothing to contribute to this thread sorry. I would like to know your opinion about Pithing Needle against you. Well, i know what it does but i'm not sure if its worth it. For Clarification i'm working on my Delver Sideboard and lookin for cards which are overlapping. If i play RUG and taking out your DRS or Symbiote-Card-Advantage....this sounds good to me :) Thanx for your help ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

D&T is a bye. No need for progenitus, just bring in decay and jitte if you play it, needle effects.
They cannot really punish you.

I think progenitus is really just a wasted SB slot.

---

I would not call dnt anywhere near a bye anymore after CN2. recruiter adds more consistency to their deck in finding important lock pieces and flying clocks. I've had a higher win rate vs delver than dnt since CN2.

Being primarily a D&T player myself, CN2 has done basically nothing to solve the Elves problem for the deck. The best new card we have access to on the D&T side of the table is Thalia 2.0 and she's largely been cut because she doesn't do enough for everything that isn't Miracles (a MU that was majorly affected in a positive way by CN2) and Elves (a MU that is so bad that even with 2-3 answers, we are STILL likely to just die on turn 5-6).

I played the MU just last week and faced down a turn 3 hoof with StP, got a Jitte swinging away making elves disappeared, and STILL died to elf beats because that's how it goes. My opponent happened to have Progenitus for G2 and that card definitely seals the deal, but I do think it's worth consideration that he may not be necessary in the MU in the first place. D&T is simply too slow and ineffective in dealing with the elves game plan. You are losing post-board percentage points, but you're probably dropping from a 90/10 MU to a 65/35 MU. The SB space is probably worth more than those extra points in an already solidly positive MU.

tldr: Thalia 2.0 is D&Ts answer to elves, and while she's good (if a bit slow) in that MU, she doesn't do enough in enough other MUs to be worth a spot in the deck at the moment, it's not worth overboarding for that MU when there are other places to pick up bigger gains with the limited SB space available.

Thalia 2.0 is super annoying, thankful we don't see her that often. Of all the regularly played cards, a turn2 Ethersworn Canonist causes the by far biggest issues for me, most of the time.

disclaimer: I know it's a positive matchup.

Yall must be playing against some really bad DnT players or your metas are so warped that they just don't care about trying to beat elves at all. I still beat the deck 80+% of the time, but saying you shouldn't sb vs them and to just ignore a card that says "i win" vs them (and other matchups..) is foolishness. When you guys lose to an actual DnT player at a GP or something outside your local meta, maybe you'll listen to what I'm preaching. Until then enjoy your "byes" vs your terrible opponents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shagstaman

disclaimer: I know it's a positive matchup.

Yall must be playing against some really bad DnT players or your metas are so warped that they just don't care about trying to beat elves at all. I still beat the deck 80+% of the time, but saying you shouldn't sb vs them and to just ignore a card that says "i win" vs them (and other matchups..) is foolishness. When you guys lose to an actual DnT player at a GP or something outside your local meta, maybe you'll listen to what I'm preaching. Until then enjoy your "byes" vs your terrible opponents.

---

This is pure truth. Everyone needs to read this.

I find myself very often in the situation to turn1 zenith for dryad arbor. What is your experience or in other words when does it make sense to accelerate instead of keeping the zenith for a more valuable play in the later turns?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berka0815

I find myself very often in the situation to turn1 zenith for dryad arbor. What is your experience or in other words when does it make sense to accelerate instead of keeping the zenith for a more valuable play in the later turns?

---

The variables are honestly too many to just give an answer, you should try to be adaptive and not to stick to bread and butter plays.

Generally you want to have some kind of turn 1 play.
Generally you want to have more than 2 mana on turn 2.
Generally you need at least 1 value spell to start doing nasty things.

So, if you dont have any way to ramp mana besides the zenith, you have another big card/visionary+simbio allowing you to "waste" the zenith you are likely going for it, this if you don't know the MU you are facing, because that would change the variables quita a bit.

If I have no other reasonable acceleration (like 1 mana Elves + Heritage + 2nd land in hand), I will always GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Even when I think I might be able to get something better on turn3. Doing something like GSZ=1 for DRS just feels absolutely awful. I want to accelerate as soon and as hard as I can. You can always draw into business, but the tempo advantage of acceleration is never bigger than on the very first turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

If I have no other reasonable acceleration (like 1 mana Elves + Heritage + 2nd land in hand), I will always GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Even when I think I might be able to get something better on turn3. Doing something like GSZ=1 for DRS just feels absolutely awful. I want to accelerate as soon and as hard as I can. You can always draw into business, but the tempo advantage of acceleration is never bigger than on the very first turn.

---

not every one of us gets a free vamp tutor every turn :P.

I'll likely fire off the gsz = 0 with no other accelerators unless i have a plan with birchlore or heritage.

We get our edge in the early game by getting a mana advantage over our opponents. GSZ for a Dryad Arbor is essentially getting to play a second land on turn one while also making our subsequent cradles and t2 Quirion Rangers (and thus also t2 Glimpse chains for value) better. While Deathrite Shaman is our best T1 play in the blind due to its non-mana abilities, if you can untap with an active Arbor it will often lead to more explosive early turns than any other T1 play.

Hey guys, I was wondering your opinion Gaddock Teeg. I've really been on the fence regarding whether he deserves a slot in our SB as oftentimes he feels too fragile in matchups where he the potential to have an impact on the game (i.e. Miracles). I also feel my poor opinion may be result of me not playing him correctly or not being entirely certain which MUs he comes in besides Storm and Miracles (I'm assuming Show and Tell as well possibly Aluren). Some insight would be appreciated so I can fully maximize his potential when testing.

I've also come to believe that Shaman of the Pack is underrated card that gives us an out against many decks (clogged boardstates against Mentor tokens, Lands, 12-post, even Delver). Maybe worth a second look?

Lastly what are your opinions regarding the mana base when running Leovold? I'm wary of being able to cosistently cast him with only 2 Birch, 4 DRS, and 2 CoS. I know Julian was able to run him in the recent Legacy Challenge without the Trop but his effect is so powerful that it may be worth diluting the manabase in order to jam him more consistently.

I recently played a chaos list with Leovold and 1 trop, but I also played 1 Edric in the SB.
Since I am a fan of 3 birchlore (not only because of fixing but also because of acceleration if disrupted) I also did run Leovold without the trop and it seemed ok in my limited testing. The situation where I could not cast him but had a fetch for a trop did come up though once or twice.

Against storm or any combo deck if GSZ for x=3 is available - Leovold is the better choice imo, because they need their cantrips. However GSZ for x=2 Teeg a turn earlier is surely better against storm.

Vs. Show and tell I would rather wait a turn to have GSZ for Leovold instead of GSZ for Teeg. But in this MU you need discard early anyway – so this is not that relevant.

Vs. Miracles my tactic is to drop Teeg, Leovold, Edric, other lords, planeswalkers - to have an impact without overcomitting too many small dudes. Teeg fits this plan very well.

If I am on chaos elves, teeg is also very strong in the mirror.

So in general – Yes Teeg definitely deserves his slot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jjkbb2005

Hey guys, I was wondering your opinion Gaddock Teeg. I've really been on the fence regarding whether he deserves a slot in our SB as oftentimes he feels too fragile in matchups where he the potential to have an impact on the game (i.e. Miracles). I also feel my poor opinion may be result of me not playing him correctly or not being entirely certain which MUs he comes in besides Storm and Miracles (I'm assuming Show and Tell as well possibly Aluren). Some insight would be appreciated so I can fully maximize his potential when testing.

I've also come to believe that Shaman of the Pack is underrated card that gives us an out against many decks (clogged boardstates against Mentor tokens, Lands, 12-post, even Delver). Maybe worth a second look?

Lastly what are your opinions regarding the mana base when running Leovold? I'm wary of being able to cosistently cast him with only 2 Birch, 4 DRS, and 2 CoS. I know Julian was able to run him in the recent Legacy Challenge without the Trop but his effect is so powerful that it may be worth diluting the manabase in order to jam him more consistently.

---

I am currently playing Shaman of the Pack and I think the card is a core component of any grindy game against miracle, they often let us beat them even to 1 hp, so having direct instant damage really helps, it sucks that a Terminus can still shut it down but hey, that card is broken for a reason.

I also had to win via SotP against different decks recently, I like how the card performs as a dirty visionary paired with simbio, we are not going to draw cards but dealing 8 damage per turn is ok

I did not like Gaddock Teeg. He shuts off GSZ and NO (even Nissa postboard) and forces us to rely on Glimpse vs miracles, which will lead to us overextending, and Visionary/Symbiote vs Storm, which is too slow. Storm is in the business of cantripping for a perfect hand/answers anyway, and shutting off our payoff spells just to have it answered EOT by a chain of vapor etc just feels really bad.

It also seems like a liability against Miracles, as they can just swords/CJ him and terminus away. Even worse is that as a 2/2 he just gets eaten by a Snapcaster during combat.

I only tested him for about 50 or so games like 2 years ago, but I cut him immediately after the 3rd or 4th time I resolved him against storm and ended up losing- probably 75+% of the time i found that Scavenging Ooze was just better when I was GSZing for two, and now that we have leovold, who is better against every other non-terminus card miracles has and shuts down ANT pretty hard- (the threat of Mindbreak Trap is definitely real) I don't think I've really wanted it in my 75.

Was very happy with him in the chaos variants. (Cavern on Advisor, not kithkin, as leo is an advisor as well), but I much prefer the NO variants, especially online and in a GP meta.

Edit: tested Shaman at your suggestion post Louisville, I wish I could find the room for him, I really enjoyed having access to that effect.

I am curious about 'Choke' for a while.

We used to gear Choke in SB against blue decks,
and I think it is still good for "miracles" and "BUGs" matchups now .
But weirdly it is gone from recent deck lists.

May I know why?
Thanks.:smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grizzlybears

I am curious about 'Choke' for a while.

We used to gear Choke in SB against blue decks,
and I think it is still good for "miracles" and "BUGs" matchups now .
But weirdly it is gone from recent deck lists.

May I know why?
Thanks.:smile:

---

I cannot speak for all, but personnally I cutted it because I grew bored to be 2 for 1'ed by wear tear. But that does not hold for the people playing sylvan library, which I cut also.
Also, the format became less blue since the banning of DTT. I had run up to 3 to 4 choke by then, and I believe it is still a decent card.
Besides, recently I started to play tropical islands, so I wont sleeve up a choke in legacy before a while :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

I cannot speak for all, but personnally I cutted it because I grew bored to be 2 for 1'ed by wear tear. But that does not hold for the people playing sylvan library, which I cut also.

---

The BUG lists also run Abrupt Decay. Tapping out on t2/3 for a choke feels bad when they have access to 4 answers that leave us at a tempo disadvantage.