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Terminus is mostly irrelevant against Thrun, because a) you still have plenty of Zeniths and other effects that shuffle, so it's not like he's gone for long, and b) if Thrun + Equipment is your gameplan, Terminus is your first Surgical Extraction / Therapy / Thoughtseize target.
GSZ Thrun can be countered though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
The matchup is terrible. Thrun is not the "answer" to Miracles. He's a green hexproof that hits for 4. That isn't enough in my books.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Idk what Miracles lists you're facing, but I regularly see Terminus, Verdict, Council's J, Containment Priests (goodbye GSZ) game 2/3. If the player has them, there's also the issue of Mentor and his homies, Koronos (UR God), and SFM + Batterskull coming out. While you're correct STP doesn't wipe him away, nearly everything else they do annihilates him.
My best Nic Fit results have come from Rhino-based Junk lists playing tight. If I'm on Junk, I do my best to ride Planeswalkers and Sanctum Prelate in conjunction with the Teeg(s) I already run.
Slaughter Games has been feast or famine for me in my experiences. Even they don't do enough. Hell, I've lost matches where I slaughter'ed "Entreat" only to be Jace'd out of the game thereafter. I've also lost games where a fast Entreat wins. Nobody wants to admit it online, but dying to 3x 4/4 Angels is also a thing.
Why would you slaughter entreat? That just seems wrong. Leave a deed in your 60 and slaughter terminus instead so you are free to commit to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Has anyone tried Leovold yet?
True, but then Thrun is still in your deck - and GSZ is hard to hit with counterbalance, so there are only a few hard counters available to Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Thrun helps because he forces miracles to have very specific answers at the right time. I'm also running equipment which helps a lot with making his clock relevant.
IMO trying to tempo Miracles with Rhino is am awful idea - Rhinos don't provide CA and are easily 1 for 1ed by Miracles so you'll get ground down unless the Miracles player screws up a while lot. I'd much rather play a list heavier on Leovold, Tracker, Witness and probably Strix / Stoneforge since they make Miracles fall behind on card advantage.
Not saying it works 100%, but it's better than Rhinos in my experience
IIRC, he burned a fast terminus to prevent Veteran. Plowed another. I had a read on him to turn off entreat. It's one of the few ways they win, so turning off win-cons is the logic. Unfortunately Jace came out the next turn. Feed doesn't do as much as you'd hope in the match against a stronger pilot. They can bait the first deed activation and follow up with another ridiculous finisher. The Mentor lists are particularly hard for this exact reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
Take it for what it's worth: Rhinos race. You can argue, but the best results I've had involved Rhinos coming down. Jace can't afford to bounce it. GSZ turns into lethal after a few hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Rhinos always got the job done for me, but the games are always decided on razor thin margins where Rhinos get there 1 turn before I face lethal. That's why I started looking for something else. Perhaps that's simply win more thinking, but I don't play this deck because I like just barely crossing the finish line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Despite having it in my list for about 2.5 months now, I still have very few games worth of actual experience with it. But something I'm trying in my build is the Mentor/Top combo. My line of thinking was that I'm already running 4 tops, and I'm running Cavern of Souls that usually name human (coincidentally, most of my list is humans) so why not throw the combo in? I have more CA than Miracles as it is, so I can assemble it easier and I've got the grind power to go just as late.
I do wish I had better feedback to report on it. The Mentors are a SB plan for me right now, but with me traveling over most of the past summer I just didn't get a chance to play very much Legacy. Hopefully, with school back in session now I can squeeze in a few tournaments here and there at some point.
I will say though, that I'm absolutely in love with my Caverns. I've played a bunch of games online where people have Chalice, and I assume it should work out the same against Counterbalance. It's nice to just push through those effects.
Regarding the Rhino build, currently going full force on them. Tireless Tracker plays a very good "filler" role where we can play an even more aggresive game.
4 VetEx
1 DRS
1 Scooze
1 E. Witness
3 Tracker
4 Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda
4 GSZ
3 SDT
1 Pruths
4 Therapy
3 Deed
2 Decay
4 Pte
1 Vindicate
22 Lands
@Bobmans: I'd go -1 Painful Truths, +1 DRS. With 3 Tireless Trackers you're going to be very mana hungry. Maybe also cut a spot removal for another DRS.
Why that many? DRS easily dies to own Deeds. Also, Exploer, Therapy and SDT are turn 1 moves with higher priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
When Slaughter Games sided in, usually opponent is on Combo or Control decks, and they don't play wastelands. 1 Taiga is enough for paying 2BR.
I must be doing something something horrendously wrong then. I'm on Rhino build and play a shit load against Miracles (I only play on MTGO). It's an absolutely miserable match-up. The only time I won against Miracles was when I was, by sheer luck, able to make him discard countertop, brainstorm and top and he was left top decking for some turns. Other than that, they do circles around anything you want to do and the Rhinos are just swords or terminus fodder. As much as I love this deck, it's just so bloody horrendous to play against Miracles that I'm seriously considering trading it for something else since it's pointless to try and fight miracles. Oh, and just in case you wonder, my question last page about Thrun was not entirely innocent, I've tried it and, quite honestly, once they bring out the Mentors, Thrun is a lightweight. Miracles is a flipping beast of a deck. #banthatbloodydeckQuote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Yeah, the best I am able to achieve against Miracles is an unintentional draw.. lose/concede game 1 and then proceed to slowly bleed them out in G2 (using Slaughter Games).
It is a very bad matchup.. which is quite easy to understand - we try to kill them mostly with creatures and they have 7 MD StP (including Snapcasters) and 4 Terminus + 2-3 JtmS.
G1 Sigarda is imo your only out, but it is hard to race them since we need a lot of setup (discards) before trying to resolve her and if we do resolve her, it usually means they have Entreat on top :)
G2 is, depending on sideboard, very winnable, but it will take a lot of time and you will probably run out of time for G3. We can however still easily lose to a fast Jace + counter backup.
Given that we have such a hard time against Miracles and fast combo, it is hard to recommend this deck to anyone. It is my go to deck when I care about the journey not the destination ;)
I've been going for this plan:
- Land a Deed and leave it in play
- Extract / Teeg / Slaughter Terminus. Teeg is by far the worst option, but he's ok if you have Sylvan Safekeeper or a Sword of Protection from White.
- Make a threat that can't be killed by Swords.
Deed can kill CB if you really need to resolve something specific, and prevents them from killing you out of nowhere with Mentor or Entreat.
If Terminus isn't available, you can afford to actually commit to the board and not get blown out. Particularly relevant with 2-for-1 guys like Tireless Tracker (who is a beast here) and Eternal Witness, Stoneforge/Strix.
Thrun with Equipment, Sigarda, and basically any planeswalker force them to Council's Judgment or lose. Even with Snapcaster, it's pretty bad for them.
For the umpteenth time: Planeswalkers, kids. Trying to fight Miracles with creatures is just downright stupid.
Tried that with varied results, but same end result. The planeswalkers are either:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
a) too slow, Mentor or Jace will get there before you.
b) get countered, Miracles these days are running cards up to 6 mana, I've read somewhere that they would be screwed if you tried to cast anything above 4 mana, yeah, right. Look at this thing:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/472960#online
(BTW, my excuse for my rambles today are 'bad day at the office').
Yeah, right. It will rise your matchup against Miracles to 50%, while also making the Delver matchup a coin toss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
This. And with powerful must-counter sorceries/enchantments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
4 rhinos build is simply not viable online. Garruk, Sorin and Elspeth(s) can confirm that.
Against Delver, you have to play tight with the PW build and manage wisely your means of gaining life.
Depending on your read with removal, DRS can be a higher priority play than Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
Look at these 2 sequences:
T1 Land, DRS
T2 Land, Top. 2 mana spare
T1 Land, Top
T2 Use Top, Draw, Land, DRS. 0 mana spare.
You push your first activation until 1 turn later but you also get much better tempo.
Also, it has to do with how many sources of a color you have. Wasteland is part of it, but not all. Such as with your SG example, you probably have to hit 2 fetches because you need black and you need red. The mana just runs much smoother if you also have DRS's. Note that the DRS's also push you to casting it on turn 3 rather than 4.
Last, Explorer is not a T1 play. If you T1 Explorer you're just going to see it eat a StP. In my first sequence you have 2 mana available to go Therapy, Explorer, Therapy (and if you hold the Top until post ramp you're immune to Daze). In the second example, you also have the mana to ramp on T2 but you won't be using the Top pre draw step.
The actual priority for 1 drops is something like this (varies a little by hand and matchup)
Therapy/DRS/Thoughtseize (if it's in your SB)
GSZ
Top
Nothing
Explorer
I mainly play in paper. I usually win games 1-0 (most common) or I draw them at 1-1. It's very rare a third game finishes but game 3's aren't favored. Here's the trick to the match, Vets hurt you more than they help. You need alternative sources of ramp because Miracles uses the mana better than you do unless you've got a Tracker down. This also means you need a lower curve because you need to operate off of +1 mana ramp rather than +3.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
Makes sense, but doesn't that last sentence go directly against using planeswalkers, since they are actually far more mana intensive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Some, 4 mana PW's can be decent. Instead of most PW's though (I do use a Sorin LoI) I rely on Caverns because most of my creatures are coincidentally human (DRS is one of the few that isn't).Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
Not many (any?) share my approach, I'm not even sure it's good... it's what I'm trying lately though.
Edit: The advantage to Cavern is that it's pretty wide, it's good against any FoW match which means our good matches like Delver remain good, it's MB material, and most of the creatures we (I?) want to run are coincidentally humans. The disadvantage is that you're limited to humans, but I've found this to be a pretty minor drawback. In fact, I don't play humans only but of my 20 creatures (not including Arbor) 14 are humans. It helps a lot and it's even good for color fixing.
I like the 3 Trackers. I want test this list but I want Innistrad Garruk in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Is anyone on here currently piloting the Scapewish Build?
I netdecked a list together and piloted it into second place at an unsanctioned 12 man legacy event at my LGS last night. The list was very dedicated to the combo with 0 fetches, 4 STE, and 2 Thoughtseize in the main.
I can post the list up later but my only loss was to the Dr Evil lands list that Ross Merriam wrote about last week (piloted by the creator). He was able to wasteland me to slow my game plan while sculpting his hand with permission and working his way towards the Stage-Depths Combo (which I simply had no game against). The list was very lacking and there were several times where I wanted to rage about the number of toolbox creatures that it didn't have access to (like eternal witness to regrow my Scapeshift that had been discarded to Collected Brutality).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I piloted Scapewish for quite a long while. Currently I've moved away from it because there's quite a lot of Lands and Infect in the local metagame, both of which are really terrible matchups for the deck.
The most recent list I ran was this:
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Scapeshift
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Painful Truths
Sideboard:
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 From the Ashes
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
The deck is actualy still pretty good. I personally went for a more combo plan, which I think you have to in this metagame. Huntmaster, Thragtusk and similar guys just aren't good enough for a beatdown plan to really work well, but they do make pretty reasonable roadblocks.
Personally i would like to see a walker in there aswell. Not sure if it's Garruk in the main. Liliana, Last Hope and/or Nissa, Vital Force are on my radar aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Either cut PRuths, PtE, go to 21 lands or go to 61 cards main would be my first thoughts.
The honeybadger is right tho, would love to see 2 DRS in there. Or even 3 Vet/4 DRS split.
Sweet looking list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Just wanted to say hello to you all, and hope that all is well. School's back so I haven't played in a while.
I'll most likely move out of most of my extra stuff and just keep BGx Nic Fit/Junk as my only decks and invest in another car.
Godspeed, y'all. Keep fighting the good fight.
A new best friend for tireless tracker?
http://www.magic-ville.com/pics/big/kldFR/101.jpg
Funny, but i'd rather draw cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
Plus, the card isn't good enough on it's own.
This card is only good if you have a Tracker down, and even if you do... I think drawing cards is better than a +1/+1 counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
You sir just made my morning! I like you too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Take care man. Whatever you do, don't end up in a flaming ball of death, mkay?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Mais non!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
Liliana, Last Hope seems to fit Junk very well. Kills all small stupid cretures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Maybe a Tracker needs to for a Liliana?
The new 5 mana Nissa seems better then 5 mana Garruk. Maybe a Tusk have to, I am not sure.
But... What toughness 1 creatures do we give a shit about? Odds are you can block it with DRS and everything bigger than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
It also makes 2 power cretures harmless so we can pay time. She is both a removel and value walker so it won't harm to test her, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Same question. How many small creatures are there that we want to actively mess with? Very, very few to none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Take a few beats for a turn or 2, drop a Courser of Kruphix or bigger and just move on. No need to waste slots on it. Do realise that choosing to run 1 card means you also choose not to run something else - try not to forget about the opportunity cost of things (most people do. And get pissed when you point it out).
In choosing to run Liliana in order to deal with things that aren't really a problem, you might give up some means to deal with something you really need to be able to deal with. @3 mana it's possibly the Vindicate that you would need to kill Jace, or the Tireless Tracker that could steal the game in the face of that 2/2 hatebear you're wrestling (just to give a few examples).
Almost all cretures in D&T and Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
A Delver that haven't be flip yet. If it flip, it becomes a 1/1.
Young Pyromancer.
Dark Confidant.
All the Infect cretures.
Vendilion Clique
Silvergill Adept
Noble Hierarch
Then we can make all the Burn Cretures not able to do damage.
This was a quick search.
You know what's a cheaper and far more efficient answer to those cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Golgari Charm. Comes online a turn earlier, doesn't care about protection/hexproof and wipes an entire board rather than kill off creatures 1 by 1.
As for Burn - starting from your third turn, you can make 1 creature unable to do damage. Sounds like an awesome plan. Abrupt Decay, a card you probably run anyway, does that exact same thing a turn earlier with a more permanent result.
Do you understand where I'm trying to get at?
Yes, she is not the best one to kill small creture but she has other abilties as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
She can return cretures from the graveyard and even mill a Cabal to use.
Her ultimate can end games.
Ofc she is not the ultimate answer for the same cretures but she can do more things then just that.
Now we're talking :smile:!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
You just want me to say it, right? (It's a good thing, challenge me!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Bingo! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Playing Liliana b/c you want her to handle creatures -> Bad reason, there's plenty of better alternatives that do just that.
Playing Liliana b/c you want her to help handle creatures, grind value and murder your opponent -> Fine reason, that's a much more difficult combination to beat. It also tells that you understand why you choose to run Liliana, which is at least just as important.
Running a card b/c it seems good -> Bad reason.
Running a card b/c it does a and b, or fulfills a role you deem important -> Fine reason (regardless of whether others agree with it or not).
Running a card b/c it does the exact same thing a card I already run does, but it does it for less mana/more efficiently/has more upsides at the same cost -> Fine reason.