[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by BennBeckmann

But the reason for me to split is not to have another turn one play, but to have more options on turn two. I often find myself turn 2 with DRS out and only 2cc spells + lands in hand. In that case the T1 DRS is kind of meh.

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Honestly, I find TA to be pretty saturated with 1CC spells even without Thoughtseize.

Even if I think turn 1 Shaman is the right play against an unknown opponent, we also pack the standard 8 copies of Brainstorm / Ponder.
With 16 1CC spells (Shaman, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm) and 14 2CC spell (Goyf, Tourach, Decay, Stalker) I find it difficult not to have another 1CC spell after a turn 1 Shaman.

But even if we don't have other 1CC spells, something like Tourach + Wasteland, Goyf + Wasteland, or simply landing Liliana doesn't seem too bad at all ;)

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Honestly, I find TA to be pretty saturated with 1CC spells even without Thoughtseize.

Even if I think turn 1 Shaman is the right play against an unknown opponent, we also pack the standard 8 copies of Brainstorm / Ponder.
With 16 1CC spells (Shaman, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm) and 14 2CC spell (Goyf, Tourach, Decay, Stalker) I find it difficult not to have another 1CC spell after a turn 1 Shaman.

But even if we don't have other 1CC spells, something like Tourach + Wasteland, Goyf + Wasteland, or simply landing Liliana doesn't seem too bad at all ;)

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You are already living the dream if your DRS lives past turn one and you can play without fear of Daze… It is not about having 3 mana on turn two, but rather having more options on turn two after your DRS dies to bolt that don't just fold to daze.

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Thoughtseize, despite being very strong in certain matchups, it's not a "tempo" card: it doesn't give any advantage, and usually takes us slightly behind in exchange of removing the best card from their hand. It doesn't affect board position and it's not a threat.
It's clearly a "control" card, very strong for midrange or control strategies, like Jund or Esper: decks which can play the long game and grind out victories in the late game if needed.

Our deck, on the other hand, has to win relatively fast and play its threats early to establish advantage and then keeping it for as long we need to finish the opponent.
Free counters are very synergistic with this plan, as well as Tourach: counters keep opponent's early threats and removal away for the first turns, while Tourach improves the advantage we already have established in the beginning.

I don't see how turn 1 Thoughtseize can help our plan to be honest: we just made a 1 for 1 without sticking anything on the board, and now it's our opponent who has the chance of taking an advantage on us.
We really want to play that Shaman or that Delver in our first turn, because in most cases we are the aggressor and we wanna apply pressure on opponent.

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Thoughtseize is a lot more of a tempo card than Hymn is!! You spend one mana to take their early action forcing them to play into your taxing counters. I have lost plenty of times to DnT after resolving a Hymn because it left them with a SFM or a Mirran Crusader that quickly took over the game. Now, I am not saying that thoughtseize would have won me the game in these situations, we will never know because the two cards do very different things, but it could have easily been an answer to the card that killed me.

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Originally Posted by Razorwynd

You are already living the dream if your DRS lives past turn one and you can play without fear of Daze… It is not about having 3 mana on turn two, but rather having more options on turn two after your DRS dies to bolt that don't just fold to daze.

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I agree, still this doesn't address the Thoughtseize vs Tourach debate.

Even if my Shaman doesn't survive until turn 2, I still have 2 mana when I untap, so Tourach keeps being a solid choice.

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Originally Posted by Razorwynd

Thoughtseize is a lot more of a tempo card than Hymn is!!

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Not at all, sorry.

Thoughtseize puts you behind in terms of "tempo": it's a 1 for 1, you spent 1 mana for it while your opponent spent no mana, it's not a threat, and sometimes it's not even a solution to your opponent's threats, especially against redundant fair decks.
About this matter, I strongly advise reading this article by Reid Duke.

There is literally no other Tempo deck around playing Thoughtseize or even discussing it.

BURG is a RUG variation which splashes black, and even with this splash they don't play Thoughtseize.
It should be strange for a tempo deck to splash color X and NOT to play one the best cards that color would offer, if that card was synergistic with its strategy, right?


If you like playing Team America as a midrange deck, than Thoughtseize could be great (at that point I would also play Confidant); but it's not good in a tempo strategy.

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Originally Posted by Razorwynd

I have lost plenty of times to DnT after resolving a Hymn because it left them with a SFM or a Mirran Crusader that quickly took over the game. Now, I am not saying that thoughtseize would have won me the game in these situations, we will never know because the two cards do very different things, but it could have easily been an answer to the card that killed me.

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Considering just a single matchup to evaluate the pros & cons of some cards makes not much sense to be honest.

Fact is: against D&T both Tourach AND Thoughtseize are pretty bad.
Tourach because they usually play Liege (otherwise it would still be good), Thoughtseize because their deck is so redundant that they will likely find another copy of the cards you just discarded, or another card which represents pretty the same threat to you.
Additionally D&T plays Vial, so if you draw Thoughtseize in the mid game they can just bait it and put the potential target directly on play in response, with you losing 2 life for nothing.

I think that against D&T the best solution is to overload on removal and try to focus on the board instead of their hand.

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Originally Posted by anakyn

If you like playing Team America as a midrange deck, then Thoughtseize could be great

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I like playing TA as a midrange deck. I win very often my games against miracle and non-red blade variants through Lilianas ultimate. Hymn lets me board into a midrange-control deck. Without it I doubt such a strategy would work very well.
This is, I feel, TA's biggest strength over the other tempo decks. Through being a bad delver deck we can sb into a good grind deck. With still being able to sport respectable threat of pushing the tempo advantage if the opp falls behind.
This versatility in gameplans available to us makes playing against us awkward for the perceivable control opponent.

If you run thoughtseize over htt you give up this freedom of positioning yourself into strategically advantageous positions. You get better tools to fight certain interactions and cards, but lock yourself into unfavorable positions at times.

Do you have any idea how awkward it is to stockpile on removal against a deck that could just jam hymns instead?
Against seize they at least lose life and tempo to trade 1-1 :D

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Not at all, sorry.

Thoughtseize puts you behind in terms of "tempo": it's a 1 for 1, you spent 1 mana for it while your opponent spent no mana, it's not a threat, and sometimes it's not even a solution to your opponent's threats, especially against redundant fair decks.
About this matter, I strongly advise reading this article by Reid Duke.

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If thoughtseize is not tempo then hymn is twice as bad because it costs two mana and doesn't affect the board…

Thoughtseize has some pseudo-tempo and card advantage because you can strand uncastable (i.e., irrelevant) cards in the opponents hand. Hymn can not guarantee this.

So, instead of telling my why thoughtseize is not great in terms of tempo (which I agree on), please tell how a card that costs twice as much mana and STILL has not affect on the board is any more of a tempo card.

Maybe if I had said, "hymn is more of a tempo disadvantage than thoughtseize", then you would not have complained as much.

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Originally Posted by anakyn

I agree, still this doesn't address the Thoughtseize vs Tourach debate.

Even if my Shaman doesn't survive until turn 2, I still have 2 mana when I untap, so Tourach keeps being a solid choice.

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...and you cast hymn and it gets dazed…or you don't cast anything for fear of daze and loose out on mana efficiency.

Really all we are doing it coming up with contrived situations to argue our points which is not really constructive at all.

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Originally Posted by deviant

I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Avatar of Bro

This.

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Luckily you have to be Premium to read him.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Razorwynd

So, instead of telling my why thoughtseize is not great in terms of tempo (which I agree on), please tell how a card that costs twice as much mana and STILL has not affect on the board is any more of a tempo card.

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I think I never said Tourach was a "tempo" card, I just said Thoughtseize wasn't, because you and someone else insisted it was.
About Tourach, I said it was "synergistic" with our strategy because it increases the advantage we wanna achieve in the first turns of the game.

TA's plan is to apply early pressure with tempo strategy, then keep the advantage for as many turns as we need to kill the opponent.

Thoughtseize is not tempo neither gives any advantage, it just doesn't fit this deck at all if you ask me.
Tourach is not tempo BUT it gives advantage, so it fits the deck much better.

About the D&T matchup, I wanted to ask to someone who has been playing TA for longer than me: do you keep your Tourach in or you prefer to side them out?

I'm asking because, as a primarily Jund player, I always side out all Tourach in the fear of Wilt-Leaf Liege, which is kinda strong against BGx decks.

Playing Jund against D&T I always feel I have good control on the board thanks to the amount of removal this deck plays, so I side out all discard and bring in more removal in the form of Golgari charm. The main problem for Jund in that matchup is developing the mana to the point you can abuse the Grove / Punishing combo, so I also bring in Loam.


Since TA plays less removal and has less tools to control the board (here comes my question), I'm asking myself if Tourach is a necessary evil to play: if we can't manage a developed board by D&T, maybe we need to attack their hand and try to remove their threats before they can play them.
The problem is: Liege is even stronger vs TA than vs Jund (we can't burn him down with double Punishing recursion), so hitting him with Tourach seems like GG or so.

I don't know the answer to this matter so I'm asking you what are your sideboard plans against D&T.

I think you're right to take out discard to avoid the Liege, esp Liliana should be taken out. Our best shot in this matchup is Delver, so I leave in Force and add Spell Pierce to counter their Swords, and try to save at least some amount of removal for their flyers. Bring in Cliques, if you have them, as well as Library and consider taking out a Goyf, Stalker and/or DRS if you must.
I wouldn't try to play the control part in this matchup because they do it way better. Once they start effectively taxing you, you're lost with your sorcery speedish stuff.
When I was playing DnT, a turn one Delver was the hardest thing to beat.

I've been doing the exact opposite. Between vial, thalia and cavern countering stuff has not proven to be very effective.
G1 what ben said holds true: delver and stalker up - hope&pray.
Postboard I like to get controlling though. Charm is phenomenal as you can just refuse to decay/edict/disfigure anything with 1 toughness. Sometimes they get awkward mana draws relying on vial and those games we can steal with decay&waste : look for those opportunities.
Hymn is risky, but helps you grind so I like to keep most in. Some serious risk-reward evaluating needs to be done here though but remember that they also could have crusader and that you surely would like to hymn away now wouldn't you?
That is also 1 reason I like liliana here : kills a crusader. Beware of unneccessary +1 though.
I have been taking out counters and some number of ponders, a hymn, at least 1 stalker etc.
Sb'ing highly depending on what you run, as after the first few slots the what vs what game gets really close and is also dependant on how you wish to / how your available tools allow you to approach the mu.

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Originally Posted by Razorwynd

If thoughtseize is not tempo then hymn is twice as bad because it costs two mana and doesn't affect the board…

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On the draw, you might be right. On the play it's a different story.
When tempo matters, f.i. against Canadian Thresh, I take out Hymn on the draw.
I will give two almost the same examples, showing why. (TA is Team America, CT is Canadian Thresh, of course.)

On the play
TA: Fetch for a Sea, cast Deathrite.
CT: Tropical, cast Delver.
TA: Play Wasteland, use Deathrite and Sea to cast Hymn to Tourach, keeping Waste open for Daze mana. Then Waste the Tropical.
Here, we keep Tempo advantage (more mana sources), and we have Hymn to wreck their hand, making it harder to recover.

On the draw
CT: Tropical, cast Delver
TA: Fetch for Sea, cast Deathrite
CT: Brainstorm in upkeep, flip Delver, main phase fetch for Volcanic, Bolt Deathrite, attack for 3.
TA: Play Bayou and cast Hymn?
Let's look at this last play by TA. If we do this, we allow CT to play Waste, cast Tarmogoyf, and then Waste our Sea. That leaves us two guys and a land behind in development. The Tempo is so far in favour of the CT player that we will likely lose. And I am not even considering the possibility that CT uses Daze to counter our Hymn.

The general rule with Hymn on the draw is (in my opinion): if you are NOT behind in Tempo/development, cast it as soon as possible. If you ARE behind in Tempo/development, sit on it. And let's face it, we don't want to sit on any card in a matchup where Tempo matters. So I side them out on the draw against decks where Tempo matters a lot, because Tempo will not very likely be in my favour on the draw.

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Originally Posted by deviant

I've been doing the exact opposite. Between vial, thalia and cavern countering stuff has not proven to be very effective.
G1 what ben said holds true: delver and stalker up - hope&pray.
Postboard I like to get controlling though. Charm is phenomenal as you can just refuse to decay/edict/disfigure anything with 1 toughness. Sometimes they get awkward mana draws relying on vial and those games we can steal with decay&waste : look for those opportunities.

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Agreed about siding out counters because they are a Vial deck; even when I face DnT with Esper I just keep a couple of FoWs in because of Cataclysm.

About the "protect the Delver with counters" argument (by BennBeckmann): yes, Delver probably is our biggest threat against them, but I find it so hard to protect him from all the removal and flyers they play, that I prefer not to bother too much trying to save his life.

Agreed also on the "controllish route" post-board: Charm really is that great.

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Originally Posted by deviant

Hymn is risky, but helps you grind so I like to keep most in. Some serious risk-reward evaluating needs to be done here though but remember that they also could have crusader and that you surely would like to hymn away now wouldn't you?
That is also 1 reason I like liliana here : kills a crusader. Beware of unnecessary +1 though.

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Agreed on the "high risk-high reward" route we probably have to follow as Team America vs DnT.
I think Jund can afford to focus entirely on the board state, while TA most times simply can't.

I've seen less Crusaders lately, and with this new cat called Brimaz around, DnT players will probably cut Mirran completely, so I wouldn't fear it that much.

I find Liliana to be an all-star against DnT when I play Jund (DnT players usually hate to see her, and they're right since ticking Liliana up is the main road to victory), in fact when I play TA I always bring the 3rd copy in (I play 2 maindeck + 1 sideboard): using her abilities can be tricky sometimes because her +1 is VERY risky, but she's just too good all around.

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Originally Posted by deviant

I have been taking out counters and some number of ponders, a hymn, at least 1 stalker etc.
Sb'ing highly depending on what you run, as after the first few slots the what vs what game gets really close and is also dependant on how you wish to / how your available tools allow you to approach the mu.

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While I see the reasoning behind cutting Stalker and counters, can you explain why you cut some Ponders too?
Fear of Thalia? Or it's just that you are siding in so many cards that you have to find some space for them?



Anyways, thanks for the replies :)

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

On the play
TA: Fetch for a Sea, cast Deathrite.
CT: Tropical, cast Delver.
TA: Play Wasteland, use Deathrite and Sea to cast Hymn to Tourach, keeping Waste open for Daze mana. Then Waste the Tropical.
Here, we keep Tempo advantage (more mana sources), and we have Hymn to wreck their hand, making it harder to recover.

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In this scenario, can I ask why you don't just Waste the Tropical before casting Hymn, so that they can't Daze it at all?

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

The general rule with Hymn on the draw is (in my opinion): if you are NOT behind in Tempo/development, cast it as soon as possible. If you ARE behind in Tempo/development, sit on it. And let's face it, we don't want to sit on any card in a matchup where Tempo matters. So I side them out on the draw against decks where Tempo matters a lot, because Tempo will not very likely be in my favour on the draw.

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Agreed: with Tourach, being on the play or on the draw really matters a lot.

Alright I value your opinions on DnT and will take it into account in the future. Although I think that forcing a Vial is not too bad as well. I think I might underestimate Lili in this deck thus I'm still unsure on how many copies I should play..

I am making the switch from Shardless BUG to Team America. I have had mild success with Shardless however in a new Legacy world with TNN and Spirit of the Lab and Combo decks, I feel that I want more of an aggressive strategy. If the format slips back to more control or mid range I will re-sleeve my Shardless Agents and Ancestral Visions. In the mean time I'm going to make Team America my new home. I'm based in Northern NJ area and they love their combo here, thus part of the reason I switched. I expect to see a decent amount of graveyard// Storm // Sneak // Elves // Stoneblade // DnT in my particular meta. Here is my current list I have ready

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

Pretty Stock MD. Any feedback for my list or suggestions would be awesome.

Also I am wondering the concerns for Spirit of the Lab for this deck. I am assuming post board with all the removal it shouldn't be too bad with all the cheap 1CC threats we have.

Spirit of the Labyrinth is basically a Meddling Mage that says "You can't play Ponder or Brainstorm".

Annoying, but hardly backbreaking.

Dread of Night is a great sideboard card if you expect to face a fair amount of Wx aggro decks.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Spirit of the Labyrinth is basically a Meddling Mage that says "You can't play Ponder or Brainstorm".

Annoying, but hardly backbreaking.

Dread of Night is a great sideboard card if you expect to face a fair amount of Wx aggro decks.

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I can envision scenarios where I play ponder into the spirit.