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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
It looks like a lot of the discussion here is trending towards how to deal with decks that generate both virtual and real card advantage where we can't really do either all that effectively. RUG starts with 7 cards, and doesn't every really draw up from there. So what we need are methods of 2 for 1ing the opponent, or generating recurring effects. The easiest place to look for this is in removal:
2 for 1
In general our best two for one slot is Forked Bolt. It kills two x/1s, or a Deathrite Shaman outright. The card does not recur, but generates virtual card advantage by removing two of our opponents cards for only one of ours. In addition, it's very efficient at one red mana.
Recurring Effects
First up here we have Grim Lavamancer, who obviously does not share synergy with our golden Nimble Mongoose. The lavamancer is slower than Forked Bolt, but it has the added benefit of being able to activate multiple times. This again gives us virtual card advantage. Lavamancer can also kill just about every threat we worry about, and it wins Tarmogoyf wars flat out.
Next up we have Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows. This card interaction has been around for a bit, and has come in and out of favor in RUG. I personally have never really liked it, but I'm considering it now because it's more has more synergy with Nimble Mogoose than Lavamancer. It also doesn't have to wait a turn before it can do damage. On the down side, it costs two mana to cast, which is a hefty amount for RUG, and I think the mana base might need to be expanded up a bit from the standard 18 to support this.
Those are the options I'm considering for the moment, and I think they are all good options. My current list contains Lavamancers, and I'll be testing it at the local this Wednesday. For the Tarmogoyf vs Mongoose argument, I'm leaning towards removing a single Goyf to help support Lavamancer. We'll see how it goes.
Lands
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
Control
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Thought Scour
Removal
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
Sideboard
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough // Tumble
The only thing that really concerns me at the moment are the Rough // Tumble in the board, as they don't play well with Lavamancer. I might swap them for two Forked Bolts for Wednesday, but we'll see!
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I think you might be missing the point. It has never been Thresholds goal to achieve some sort of cardadvantage, for example via Punishing Fire. It is simply the wrong deck for such a goal, decks like Jund or BUG manage to do this fairly well, but hey, that's their purpose. Canadian on the other side has mostly been producing virtual cardadvantage aka accumulating dead cards on the opposing hand. Trading 1 for 2 has always been nice, but it was never a goal. Though I agree on Lavamancer to be rather good at the time being.
Another point I want to discuss is the following. We have to face more big creatures than ever before. Tarmogoyf, once a "RUG-only-card" sees play in various archetypes, Tombstalker is being played again, too and there are still a few Knights around. All this creatures can't be Bolted, under normal circumstances. So, the logical conclusion is to play "better" removal, which led me to playing 2 Dismembers in the Mainboard and a full set of Submerges in the side. How do you feel about this topic?
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pherion
When will you and others realize the palpable fact that Nimble Mongoose and Grim Lavamancer do not belong in the same maindeck?
Is there any other two cards that lack sooooooooo much synergy??????
I can't think of a better way to undermine yourself!
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
I think you might be missing the point. It has never been Thresholds goal to achieve some sort of cardadvantage, for example via Punishing Fire. It is simply the wrong deck for such a goal, decks like Jund or BUG manage to do this fairly well, but hey, that's their purpose. Canadian on the other side has mostly been producing virtual cardadvantage aka accumulating dead cards on the opposing hand. Trading 1 for 2 has always been nice, but it was never a goal. Though I agree on Lavamancer to be rather good at the time being.
Another point I want to discuss is the following. We have to face more big creatures than ever before. Tarmogoyf, once a "RUG-only-card" sees play in various archetypes, Tombstalker is being played again, too and there are still a few Knights around. All this creatures can't be Bolted, under normal circumstances. So, the logical conclusion is to play "better" removal, which led me to playing 2 Dismembers in the Mainboard and a full set of Submerges in the side. How do you feel about this topic?
Greetings
You're quite right that RUG's primary goal is to attack the mana base, and to prevent the opponent from being able to play larger spells, or to efficiently counter them when they finally do get played. Our best game is in the first few turns, and usually the winner is decided there. However, if the opponent knows we are on RUG, plays around Stifle and Wasteland - then our mana denial plan is out the window, and we need other options to win a mid to long game. This is when our inability to generate any real card advantage starts to hurt us. So the Grim Lavamancer/Grove of the Burnwillows plan's are only for a metta where we expect our opponents to be able to play around our primary plan.
On Dismember and Submerge, I agree here as well. I only run one Dismember in the main, and three Submerge in the side, but I can certainly see arguments for you're numbers. For me two Dismembers feels very painful as in many matches they can end up killing us. So I'll stick to one for now :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Demonic_Attorney
When will you and others realize the palpable fact that Nimble Mongoose and Grim Lavamancer do not belong in the same maindeck?
Is there any other two cards that lack sooooooooo much synergy??????
I can't think of a better way to undermine yourself!
Have you play tested the combination? If so I'd be happy to see you're results. I'm planning to keep track of how they interact and see if it is feasable over the long run. From what I can see however: In most matches you'll want either Nimble Mongoose or Grim Lavamancer. For instance in a combo match-up Lavamancer is too slow and you want a beefed Mongoose ASAP to attack their life total before they can kill you. Whereas against something like Goblins you're probably going to want the consistent removal of a Lavamancer. You could argue that a thresholded mongoose could block and achieve this goal as well, until you play an experienced Goblin player. In general you're mongoose will sit there while they build up their forces until they are lethal even if you do block. The Lavamancer on the other hand can take out key components to their swarm even if they aren't attacking you.
There are cases where it will be difficult to decide which is more important. For instance against Esper Blade the Mongoose is fantastic because it avoid Swords to Plowshares, but the Lavamancer is also good because it helps deal with Lingering Souls and kills Stoneforge Mystic.
I'm looking forward to testing the combonation either way, and I'll let you know if the Lavamancer ever seems awkward with Mongoose.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I think some number of Thought Scour could facilitate playing both creatures. You could also run Life from the Loam(s) instead of or in addition to Thought Scour(s) -- besides being a great card on its own, dredging will also help fill your graveyard.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I'll be streaming the Legacy daily @ 5:30 today playing RUG.
http://www.twitch.tv/Dyvith
If you wanna watch, I'll see y'all then.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pherion
You're quite right that RUG's primary goal is to attack the mana base, and to prevent the opponent from being able to play larger spells, or to efficiently counter them when they finally do get played. Our best game is in the first few turns, and usually the winner is decided there. However, if the opponent knows we are on RUG, plays around
Stifle and
Wasteland - then our mana denial plan is out the window, and we need other options to win a mid to long game. This is when our inability to generate any real card advantage starts to hurt us. So the
Grim Lavamancer/
Grove of the Burnwillows plan's are only for a metta where we expect our opponents to be able to play around our primary plan.
On
Dismember and
Submerge, I agree here as well. I only run one
Dismember in the main, and three
Submerge in the side, but I can certainly see arguments for you're numbers. For me two
Dismembers feels very painful as in many matches they can end up killing us. So I'll stick to one for now :)
Nimble Mongoose as a 3/3 already gives us a lot of virtual card advantage in that it blanks their removal. With more inclusion of weenies, it'll make enemy removal and mirror match Fork Bolts that much harder to deal with. You are also down a Tarmogoyf which is Tempo Thresh's biggest problem.
I think you are wrong about Wasteland/Stifle being an issue against decks that play "around" this package. If they play around this, the job of the package is done and they are already slowed. Stifle has other applications besides targeting fetch lands and extra mana has never hurt Tempo Thresh.
Regarding the Submerge/Dismember package, I tend to run 1x Dismember maindeck for the Tarmogoyf battles. I only run 2 submerge as submerge tends to be bad in multiples especially when your opponent plays black and discard. I like boarding it Sulfuric Vortex against these green decks for extra reach. It seems to be ok.
If they do play around your Stifle/Wasteland package (and you find it annoying), you can also board out the Stifles where you see fit. The threat of having Stifle but not actually having it will make them slower without you actually having the card. That alone is worth playing Stifle. Looking at your list, I can tell that you are a Tempo Thresh player that doesn't really enjoy the fundamentals of the Stifle/Wasteland game. You tend to rely more on the removal and countermagic. That's a way to play it, but I find that having the full set of Stifle/Wasteland is the only way to instil fear in the opponent's eyes. Arguably, you can say that you can bluff the Wasteland just because you are playing Tempo Thresh, but not everyone is going to be a good enough player to play around Stifle/Wasteland. When that time comes, you'll really be wishing you had those Stifles.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I'm really thinking about adding two Chain Lightnings instead of two Forked Bolts. Think thats at the moment the better removal spell.
Here is my list:
Creatures [12]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [23]
2 Spell Snare
2 Thought Scour
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [6]
2 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
Lands [18]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
SB
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
Eventually cutting 1 Tarmogoyf to add 1 Snappy to be a little more flexible and cutting 1 Grudge to add 1 Grip. SB is also not final.
What do you think?
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I think that neither Chain Lightning nor Forked Bolt is good nowadays. First of all, both are sorceries. I think that's enough of a point and does not need any further clarification. Secondly I think that the meta nowadays warrants Stifle. I've been done alot of testing BUG vs RUG, though mostly from the BUG-side, but I can say for sure, that Stifle is one of the scarier cards. Your primary goal should be to manascrew BUG as soon as possible while shooting their Shamans (at instant speed). Therefore I can't think of a reason to cut Stifle.. it saves your creatures asses from Liliana's activations too later in the game...
As for additional removal, I can only repeat what I said in my last point, it is a necessity to be able to nuke an opposing Tarmogoyf (at instant speed). Therefore I advocate 1-2 Dismember. In addition to being a great Goyfkiller they also act as a pseudoremoval against Batterskull preboard, granting you one or two more turns to end the game. Cutting the 4th Tarmogoyf is okay, though adding Snapcaster Mage does not sound good. I've never been a friend of cc3 cards that do not win the game (unlike Elemental/Vortex/Grip, as they win the game pretty often). Most of the time Snapcaster Mage is a 3 mana Lightning Bolt... I'd advocate playing a 9th cantrip in this slot, wether being Thought Scour, Sylvan Library or even Preordain.
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Hm... i could cut 1 Forked Bolt for a Dismember. And add 1 Forked Bolt in SB. Think thats ok. I also think of cutting 1 Goyf to add 1 Sylvan Library. (i really like that card)
OR cut the Forked Bolt for Fire//Ice?!
Any more suggesions to my sideboard?
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I would never cut the fourth tarmogoyf you will lose a lot more games in the threshold mirror and team america match ups, where essentially the whole game comes down to who gets more tarmogoyfs, then you will win with cute little snapcaster tricks. Snapcaster is pretty terrible in this deck where the only thing it can really do is be a three mana lightning bolt or a 3 mana spell pierce at which point they should be able to pay for the spell pierce anyways.
The problem thresh is seeing right now is that there is a lot a super fair midrange lame ass GBx decks being played and that has never been where the deck has excelled. The only reason these decks can exist is deathrite shaman. All of the GBx mana basses being played right now are terrible and deathrite is the only reason they work. This shows a pretty clear weak point in the GBx decks. As the best resource denial deck in magic besides vintage MUD I think we should be sticking to that instead of playing fair cards that can't compare to their fair cards. With this said I think if you're not playing four stifle and four wasteland you're saying that you just don't want to win. If you keep saying that you're losing to bloodbraid elf I think you're wrong you're losing to them taking over the game to the point that they've reached four mana, reaching four mana against us shouldn't be possible unless we have them at 3. In the end we should be trying to find unfair cards to deal with their fair cards, examples of this are submerge and divert. Plaxmanta is cute but all it does is answer abrupt decay, our answers need to be diverse and devastating not narrow and 'ok'.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
I think that neither Chain Lightning nor Forked Bolt is good nowadays. First of all, both are sorceries. I think that's enough of a point and does not need any further clarification. Secondly I think that the meta nowadays warrants Stifle. I've been done alot of testing BUG vs RUG, though mostly from the BUG-side, but I can say for sure, that Stifle is one of the scarier cards. Your primary goal should be to manascrew BUG as soon as possible while shooting their Shamans (at instant speed). Therefore I can't think of a reason to cut Stifle.. it saves your creatures asses from Liliana's activations too later in the game...
As for additional removal, I can only repeat what I said in my last point, it is a necessity to be able to nuke an opposing Tarmogoyf (at instant speed). Therefore I advocate 1-2 Dismember. In addition to being a great Goyfkiller they also act as a pseudoremoval against Batterskull preboard, granting you one or two more turns to end the game. Cutting the 4th Tarmogoyf is okay, though adding Snapcaster Mage does not sound good. I've never been a friend of cc3 cards that do not win the game (like Elemental/Vortex/Grip). Most of the time Snapcaster Mage is a 3 mana Lightning Bolt... I'd advocate playing a 9th cantrip in this slot, wether being Thought Scour, Sylvan Library or even Preordain.
Greetings
There are two things that I don't agree with you on in your post. Firstly, I think sorcery speed is not a big problem considering 8 of the 12 threats in this deck are 1-drops. Sorcery speed also helps build up Tarmogoyf which is great since the previous lists only had Ponder to make the goyf a 4/5 which seems rather weak (previous as is Fire/Ice era). I think both Chain Lightning and Fork Bolt have value, but I think that Fork Bolt has a bit more versatility. By being able to split the damage, you do not waste any of the damage from the R. I think with the Chain Lightning, many players would just be tempted to burn face. Chain Lightning is also bad against decks that play R. With the ramp of Jund, I wouldn't be surprised if people started to lose their Insectile Apparitions to their own Chain Lightnings.
I would advocate the Dismember in conjunction with the burn as burn gives you the reach necessary to win most games.
I also disagree with you regarding your comment about Sulfur Elemental and Sulfuric Vortex as both of those spells more often than not spell disaster for the opponent. Elemental being a one sided Wrath of God against white weenies and, Sulfuric Vortex, giving you the reach necessary to beat control decks.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I also disagree with you regarding your comment about Sulfur Elemental and Sulfuric Vortex as both of those spells more often than not spell disaster for the opponent. Elemental being a one sided Wrath of God against white weenies and, Sulfuric Vortex, giving you the reach necessary to beat control decks.
What did I type there? I am sorry. I was trying to say UNlike those 3, as they can win games in a heartbeat. So I agree with you :D
I really dislike having any sorceryspells in RUG, but this may just be a question of playstyle?
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I came to the conclusion to try this list:
Creatures [12]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [26]
1 Dismember
1 Fire//Ice
2 Thought Scour
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [4]
4 Ponder
Lands [18]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
SB [15]
1 Forked Bolt
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
Dismember could really getting usefull against Tombstalker/Goyfs. Fire//Ice is also good cause its an instant and more flexible. Always liked it more than Forked Bolt. I also like the 2 Thought Scour cause they can be very usefull when used wise. (Cantrip, Thought Scour to get rid of cards you dont need AND lets grow your Goyf and Mongoose OR use it on the opponent to ruin their game plan when using for examble Top or Sylvan Library)
I also think the SB looks great. More counters and more removal spells. I think we need Rough//Tumble. (Elven are getting more this times and Goblins are always present)
Any inputs?
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Korvo
Any inputs?
You are only running 59 cards.
Aside from that: why no stifles?
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Sorry wrong numbers! ^^
Its now correct!
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Korvo
Any inputs?
1) I wouldn't consider Forked Bolt to be an sideboard card. What cards do you bring it in against? I am sure Sulfur Elemental is alot more effective, if brought in postboard.
2) Thought Scour is nice. But being forced to play without any Spell Snares is not. It just has too many broad applications nowadays. I think I don't need to write them down, right?
3) Spell is great, as said above, but I wouldn't consider it a sideboard card either, maybe im just too narrow-minded about this point, but I think this card belongs to the mainboard.
4) I've pretty much enjoyed dropping the graveyardhate, enableling me to concentrate on other tough MUs - Jund comes to my mind. Cutting the 3 Surgicals would make space for the 4th Submerge, a Mind Harness and a Krosan Grip, for example.
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
What did I type there? I am sorry. I was trying to say UNlike those 3, as they can win games in a heartbeat. So I agree with you :D
I really dislike having any sorceryspells in RUG, but this may just be a question of playstyle?
Greetings
Ah, that makes much more sense. Thank you. I think your statement about that was just a little ambiguous and I took it the other way. It is much clearer now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Korvo
Any inputs?
What's your reasoning behind running 2 Thoughtscour? It's not really a card you want to see 2-of in your hand at any point. Tempo Thresh as a deck is very capable of getting to threshold with all of the fetchlands and cantrips. I would consider cutting the extra one. What you put in there depends on your play style, whether you like countermagic/removal/threat or cantrip...
Regarding your side board, in what match up does the Fork Bolt get brought it?
Same question for Surgical Extraction.
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Hey I need your help guys.
How do you board against Jund and BUG Delver?
This is my list:
Deck: Canadian
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Izzet Charm
4 Force of Will
Lands:18
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
MD has 7 burn spells. I am currently thinking about switching one Forked Bolt to one Dismember. But that is another story.
This is my boarding idea vs Jund:
OTP: -4 Force - 2 Forked Bolt - 1 Izzet Charm + 3 Submerge + 2 Divert + 2 Rough
OTD: -4 Daze - 4 Force - 1 Forked Bolt + 3 Submerge + 2 Divert + 2 Rough + 2 Pierce
Forces are bad in this MU as Jund relies heavily on discard. So we cannot afford more card losses. Boarding out Forked Bolt seems odd, but we board in tons of good removal and post board FB is clearly inferior to Rough/Tumble.
Divert is big in this MU. It can redirect their discard spells, their bolts and their decays - so nearly everything.
This is my boarding idea vs BUG Delver - Tempo Version without Bob:
OTP: - 4 Force - 1 Pierce + 3 Submerge + 2 Divert
OTD: - 4 Daze - 2 FoW + 3 Submerge + 2 Divert + 1 Flusterstorm
In this MU Rough is not good as you can only hit Shaman. Forces are also a little bad, so I take 2 out even on the Draw.
Now let us talk about BUG Midrange - the one with Bobs, Lili and so on:
OTP: - 4 Force - 1 Izzet - 2 Forked Bolt + 3 Submerge + 2 Divert + 2 Rough
OTD: - 4 Daze - 2 Force - 2 Forked Bolt + 3 Submerge + 2 Divert + 2 Rough + 1 Pierce
Now Rough can hit many tagets and is a must-include.
I would really appreciate if some forum users can advice me conerning if the boarding plans are ok :)
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Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I don't understand why you are boarding out removal for jund when that is essentially all we want to see. Take out forces dazes and your spell pierce.
