[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

That is a solid piece of advice! If you are not sure what hate is coming your way just keep on course then adjust for game three if you get blown out.

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Glad to have helped. :smile:

Take note, though, that this "management" of the sideboard would still require a fair bit of caution, as you might erroneously "ignore" the sideboard and cost yourself a supposedly winnable game.

A useful tip that I also got from someone (I can't remember who, though I think that it's one of the Dredge guys from channelfireball.com) is to observe your opponent while he's going through his sideboard. This will at least give you some clues for what to expect in Game 2. For example, Leyline of the Void is usually boarded-in in full sets because of the nature of the card; if you see your opponent confidently setting aside a 4-card section from his sideboard while he decides on whether or not he'll need to board-in anything else, then that can help you decide on whether or not you want to board-in some Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim for added security. Of course, this is just based on very loose reasoning, so it may or may not be too helpful. At the end of the day, our knowledge of the match-up will still be the most important factor for how we'll be able to use our sideboard to the fullest.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

Unless I'm mistaken, you cannot target the same Dryad Arbor that you intend to use to pay the cost of Dread Return because it's not in the graveyard yet.

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That is right. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by jares

Glad to have helped. :smile:

Take note, though, that this "management" of the sideboard would still require a fair bit of caution, as you might erroneously "ignore" the sideboard and cost yourself a supposedly winnable game.

A useful tip that I also got from someone (I can't remember who, though I think that it's one of the Dredge guys from channelfireball.com) is to observe your opponent while he's going through his sideboard. This will at least give you some clues for what to expect in Game 2. For example, Leyline of the Void is usually boarded-in in full sets because of the nature of the card; if you see your opponent confidently setting aside a 4-card section from his sideboard while he decides on whether or not he'll need to board-in anything else, then that can help you decide on whether or not you want to board-in some Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim for added security. Of course, this is just based on very loose reasoning, so it may or may not be too helpful. At the end of the day, our knowledge of the match-up will still be the most important factor for how we'll be able to use our sideboard to the fullest.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Good Call, all to often I ignore my opponent and go off into my own little world due to the nature of Dredge and end up ignoring crucial information being given to me by their body language during play and while side boarding.

I guess we should watch for the number of cards being sided in as well. If your Opponent is bringing in 6+* cards then you would definitely be looking to bring in at least a couple of "blanket" protection pieces.

*I think someone mentioned in a earlier tourney report that their opponent brought in something like 6 pieces of hate.

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

Good Call, all to often I ignore my opponent and go off into my own little world due to the nature of Dredge and end up ignoring crucial information being given to me by their body language during play and while side boarding.

I guess we should watch for the number of cards being sided in as well. If your Opponent is bringing in 6+* cards then you would definitely be looking to bring in at least a couple of "blanket" protection pieces.

*I think someone mentioned in a earlier tourney report that their opponent brought in something like 6 pieces of hate.

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By the way, you hould not sideboard like this, too. As a dredge player, I think it is important not to give away the boarding rightaway.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

By the way, you hould not sideboard like this, too. As a dredge player, I think it is important not to give away the boarding rightaway.

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Sorry if I am not understanding you. Are you suggesting holding back during G2 and trying to get a feel for what hate has been boarded in and then "fight back" G3? I understand that keeping the deck at full throttle for as long as possible gives us a better chance of winning then diluting the deck with counter measures.

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

Good Call, all to often I ignore my opponent and go off into my own little world due to the nature of Dredge and end up ignoring crucial information being given to me by their body language during play and while side boarding.

I guess we should watch for the number of cards being sided in as well. If your Opponent is bringing in 6+* cards then you would definitely be looking to bring in at least a couple of "blanket" protection pieces.

*I think someone mentioned in a earlier tourney report that their opponent brought in something like 6 pieces of hate.

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I think someone even mentioned having gone against 11 sideboard inclusions. :tongue:

Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

I think someone even mentioned having gone against 11 sideboard inclusions. :tongue:

Regards,
jares

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That's probably the story I am referring to, 11 damn...

I find putting in 15 cards, shuffling, and taking out 15 cards actually works much faster and more effectively in dredge. Whats sideboard is usually pretty clear, and you should know ahead of time which cards to pull so you water down your list the least.

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

That's probably the story I am referring to, 11 damn...

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Towards the end of last year I saw someone at a local tourney who had 10. I think it was some mix of Surgical Extraction, Ravenous Trap and Leyline of the Void.

And yes, he was serious. I didn't get paired against him, though I would have loved to kill him with hardcast dudes while he's sitting on three Traps and with 2 Leylines in play.

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Originally Posted by Izor

Towards the end of last year I saw someone at a local tourney who had 10. I think it was some mix of Surgical Extraction, Ravenous Trap and Leyline of the Void.

And yes, he was serious. I didn't get paired against him, though I would have loved to kill him with hardcast dudes while he's sitting on three Traps and with 2 Leylines in play.

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Did Dredge kill that guys Dad or what??....

That's some serious hatin' going on.

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Originally Posted by flapjack

I find putting in 15 cards, shuffling, and taking out 15 cards actually works much faster and more effectively in dredge. Whats sideboard is usually pretty clear, and you should know ahead of time which cards to pull so you water down your list the least.

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That's what I meant. Not giving information.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

That's what I meant. Not giving information.

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Ok, I am now on the same page.

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

Sorry if I am not understanding you. Are you suggesting holding back during G2 and trying to get a feel for what hate has been boarded in and then "fight back" G3? I understand that keeping the deck at full throttle for as long as possible gives us a better chance of winning then diluting the deck with counter measures.

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Not certain it's relevant to what Hokus said, but that's typically the correct approach for Dredge to take unless the deck your facing has some sort of "tell" like Snapcaster Mage for Surgical Extraction, Affinity for Tormod's Crypt etc., Metal Worker for Tormod's Crypt etc. or Swamps for Leyline of the Void or maybe Planar Void. Maverick seems fairly predictable in trying to utilize Enlightened Tutor SBs for silver bullet, but I've been caught with my pants down vs Surgical Extraction etc. while holding Nature's Claim.

I have seen a lot of lists thrown around and a lot of disdain for "sub-optimal" builds. In light of that I was wondering what you all think is the best (in a vacuum) current build of the LED version?

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Originally Posted by Ataxrxes

I have seen a lot of lists thrown around and a lot of disdain for "sub-optimal" builds. In light of that I was wondering what you all think is the best (in a vacuum) current build of the LED version?

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I think you cannot really say that. There are three versions, really, how you can play the deck.
First: LED+ FKZ and Dread Return
This seems to be the worst list in almost every aspect.
Second: A LED list that has DR mainly as a sac outlet or to put actual Creatures in play, that win you the game, not FKZ( Iona, Elesh, Sphinx, Sun Titan, whatnot)
Third:You cut the DR, play 12 Lands and every good card 4 times.
Is a bit slower, due to not having Dread Return, but when I say a bit, I really mean like .5 % or so. This is the list I play, you are very consistent, but don't have maindeck silverbullets and this can be an issue sometimes.

In game 2-3 how badly do you mulligan to your hate? I played a game where I expected surgical extraction, so sided in 3 macabre's. But my opening hand was 2 lands, p.imp, 2trolls, c.therapy, f.looting. Do I mull this on the draw? I kept and got bridge extracted turn 2. Eventually won with an Ichorid and 9/9 troll, but if I didn't have Dread Return I could have easily lost :/

You never mulligan into anti hate, as long as your hand is fine on its own.
In your case you should have gone for land, Imp. Then either dredge directly via Troll or, if you are scared of Extraction, draw your card for the turn, cast Therapy on Extraction and then go for the Loothing.

Seemed like the right thing for me too. Ok thanks

FWIW, I Top 4'ed a thirty-man this past week with Tortured Existence in my new Dredge build. Card was absolutely busted when it hit the table and with the obvious synergy of Street Wraith with it, I was able to hold Extraction by the balls all night long.

A little mana-intensive (still, not too much; you're still able to do some serious damage with it as a permanent protective force and draw engine), but I'll tell you what: that card was almost like Survival of the Fittest when it came down. I brought back a pitched Faerie Macabre with it against Reanimator and an Ingot Chewer against Cage. Pretty mind-blowing, actually. I'll post the list when I get home.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

FWIW, I Top 4'ed a thirty-man this past week with Tortured Existence in my new Dredge build. Card was absolutely busted when it hit the table and with the obvious synergy of Street Wraith with it, I was able to hold Extraction by the balls all night long.

A little mana-intensive (still, not too much; you're still able to do some serious damage with it as a permanent protective force and draw engine), but I'll tell you what: that card was almost like Survival of the Fittest when it came down. I brought back a pitched Faerie Macabre with it against Reanimator and an Ingot Chewer against Cage. Pretty mind-blowing, actually. I'll post the list when I get home.

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Sounds interesting. I'll be looking forward to the list. Come to think of it, Dredge has never had a permanent draw mechanism, and Tortured Existence sounds like fun simply because Street Wraith exists!

I going through the possible tricks in my head as we speak... sounds like fun! :laugh:

Cheers,
jares