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Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Hi,
well this is my list and i was thinking about posting it in the Rock thread, but i think that Rock is much more controlling and playing more diruption, where my deck is very creaturebased and just plays discard in the sideboard.
Followed this thread for a while without posting. I've been playing Canadian Threshold for a while now but at heart I enjoy Black decks. Before Thresh played B/w Control variants for quite sometime and most recently decided Junk/Rock is where I want to be. Been working on a list that I plan on taking to some local casual tournaments. Seems off but I'm liking the options Deathrite and Abrupt Decay are giving to the Rock lists.
Here's the list I'm working on it's nowhere near to the final product it's going to need a lot more testing. I'm open to whatever suggestions this forum has, I feel like the player base here has a very good understanding of the overall meta game.
Creatures : 14
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
Spells : 22
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lingering Souls
Lands : 24
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
Sideboard : 15
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Serenity
1 Thoughtseize
1 Oblivion Ring
One thing I'm going to really need to test is Thalia and how much of a problem she could be concerning our own spells. With Deathrite it seems to off set the problem slightly but only testing will show. I'll try to come back with results and changes if I make any noteworthy progress.
My impression of Deathrite Shaman isn't whether to play him or not, but whether or not you want 4 for mana-ramp consistency or 1 in a GSZ package for gy-hate/reach.
GSZ has been such a strong focal point in almost all green-flavored decks. The only ones that don't really play it are fast zoo and slower BUG/Control lists (Intuition/Loam, The Mind Harvester, etc.) I think that Deathrite Shaman might be the card needed to start pulling away from GSZ as a neccessary element in Rock/Junk decks. Turn 1 Deathrite Shaman with black or green seems slightly better than GSZ for 0 to fetch Dryad Arbor. It diversifies your mana as well as Birds of Paradise but doesn't get useless after you get 3 lands onto the battlefield. I'm a big fan of Deathrite Shaman...but I haven't done a lot of serious testing yet, only about 7-8 games.
Right now I'm testing the following list (I'm gonna use it next friday)
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
4 dark confidant
4 goyf
4 reliquary
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
2 liliana otv
1 garruk relentless
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 wastelands
8 fetches
got easily thru most decks.... But lost miserably to a junk loam that ran chalice of the void (I kinda liked that, maybe I'll try out someday)
on my doubt about wether or not to run mox: mox laughes hard at canadian, team america (tempo) and lands. And I remembered how great liliana was when I tested the build that didn't ran her ;p
on deathrite shaman: not sold on him at all
@Fakedylan: Couple thoughts about your list:
- You have 1 MD Ooze and Pridemage each, which suggests a Green Sun's toolbox, but then you don't have any Zeniths. That seems a little contradictory.
- Furthermore, the Ooze has a lot of overlap with your four Shamans and your Bojuka Bog. The Pridemage has similar overlap with your Vindicates and Abrupt Decays.
- You have a lot of small bodies (Shamans, Bobs, Lingering Souls) that could benefit from picking up a Jitte when they eventually attack.
So, in summary, I'd go +2 Jitte, -1 Ooze, -1 Pridemage.
Welcome to the source!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fakedylan
I love the use of deathrite shaman and here are some things I learned:
1: Abrupt decay is an awesome 1 of main 2-3 of board card. It is awesome against rug and counterbalance but cannot replace swords or vindicate/pulse completely. Jace and batter skull are real cards and 9 pieces of removal is a bit much pre board.
2. Deathrite shaman and lingering souls love to pick up equipment. Either raw dogged or fetched with a mystic.
3. I think not running 4 GSZ is wrong, and that is debatable, but I'm almost positive you should be running at least 1-2 to fetch the ooze and pridemage you run.
The problem with GBW is that there are so many ways you can take your deck and so many good cards you can run.
Great feedback guys this is why I love The Source. I agree with pretty much everything said concerning my list. I think the hardest thing will be finding a balance between cards like Shaman vs. GSZ ( this cards so strong it's what makes Maverick imo): As well as how many Abrupt Decays are necessary. I do like the idea of having 1 in the sideboard 2 in main in reference to Abrupt Decay. I have not played with Maverick but I get the general idea and as others have pointed out that The Rock is becoming possibly a hybrid (Junk/Maverick). I find it exciting that Maverick might be able to transition into a 3 color deck playing Black.
As for the list I agree with the cutting of Pridemage and Ooze for a Jitte or 2. Going to try that out along with 1 less Abrupt though I'm not sure what would be best in that spot.
Is it just me or is Qasali Pridemage underwhelming to most folks lately? I remember when it was the shit, but lately I haven't really wanted to see it much. Even when I can GSZ >>> Pridemage I find myself going for Ooze, Goyf, Knight, Eternal Witness, Deathrite Shaman, basically anything besides Pridemage. I'm putting my singleton Pridemage to the sideboard for now.
Anybody else have a similar experience?
I was. There's a second Goyf (Go stare contest champ!) in it's place and I've completely cut it at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
If you're running GSZ, I see no reason why you wouldn't run at least 1 Qasali in the MD as a tutor target, because you never know when you're going to run into something like an Ensnaring Bridge or Jitte or something.
For those without GSZ... yea, I'd definitely cut it. Horrible beater, and Abrupt Decay is much more versatile.
He's LESS useful now that we have Abrupt Decay, but I've found him VERY handy at blowing up stuff like Shackles, Equipment, etc.
-Matt
As a 4 GSZ player, I have ooze/teeg/pridemage sharing 2 slots and sideboard the one I don't feel like would be te strongest.
I find Pridemage is useful to fill holes in the deck's removal suite. If you don't have a lot of Deeds or extra Pulses/Decays/Vindicates then he can definitely be good, but generally there just aren't a lot of must-answer art/enchantment threats out there.
I (Nic Fit) ended up putting the Pridemage in the sideboard because I just never GSZ'd for it and anything else I could answer easily with Deeds or Pulses.
Yes, you have Omniscience/Sneak, but if that drops then you're dead anyway.
I put Teeg in its place and have Ooze and Pridemage sideboard.
With Rest In Peace around, however, I think it definitely needs to stay in the 75.
Sometimes assholes play things that we don't like. That is why I will most likely always play pridemage in the main, with him GSZ can now kill a counterbalance, and dodge the balance lock, and he can be fetched to kill any artifact/enchantment any rouge deck plays. Don't forget about jitte and its brethren which are must answers for any creature deck.
If you have volrath's stronghold, your qasali gains a lot of value, since he can replace a decay/pulse (sort of) and you gain recursion.
On shaman: it IS worth testing. In a build without tarmogoyf. Maybe... Bg?
I did more tests with the last build I posted. So far, I lost to bgw loam, bug pernicious deed liliana jace control, and esper stoneblade (that one was really close, g1 I finished him quick, the other 2 weren't SO hard).
Won against all other decks tested, including merfolks, goblins, bant, ant
I'm also coming around to shaman thanks to some modern testing. I've only got 1 slot though which changes its pros/cons.
If you've only got 1 then you're looking to GSZ for it which means that if you're searching on the first turn for it, you've got a land in the yard already (from diamond) so it's live at that point. If you're playing it on the the first turn, you've not only their turn, but also your own draw to find a fetch. The risks aren't that large compared to the benefits of having another life-gain source. The "Burn" is actually a useful bonus (although I wish it was 2 damage).
Altough I assume shaman MAY be ineresting, I can't find space for him on my deck. I rather enjoy the 6 discards and 10 removals (pretty much nothing stays in the field, liliana and garruk can also fulfill the "removal" role when needed).
But, in the matches I lost on my testings, it was due to lack of threats...
Sug-10 slots for removal is a lot preboard, it is fine in some match ups post board if you feel you need to go that way. If you need more threats you can probably find some spots there.
I have a few questions and then some matchup improvements with the Deathrite Shaman/SFM build I have been testing.
1. Has anyone thought about replacing the vindicate/pulse slot completely with Abrupt Decay? The goal is to just decay anything that moves and keep counterbalances/jittes off of the table.
This leaves some problems: 7 slots of slot removal where I would want 4 swords and 3 EE/pulse/catch-all answers. I really do not like not having an answer for a jace other than creatures/mana denial/board control. It scares me. The pro is that all of your removal is now instant and you gain a great leg up in blue match ups where they want to counter your removal. This could leave the decays in the board for blue decks where they would shine.
2. Anyone else notice that cabal therapy is picking up steam as viable disruption? With show and tell as pretty much the big dog around town the double therapy play hurts the one trick pony pretty bad. Could give more merit to the players who love lingering souls.
3. Is anyone else on the Deathrite Train yet? I have been testing like mad against the DTB at the moment and have these comments to make: The following list is in order of biggest impact to least impact...
Delver: Shaman is a must kill against RUG in that they will never receive threshold, goyfs will never grow large and the life gain can keep us out of burn/delver range until the rest of our decks can snap into action. He negates their mana denial by eating lands in graveyards for fun and profit. Can pay for daze tax.
Maverick: Knights are now a non-factor, waste lands are minimized, he can keep adjusting life totals until the game is over. Reduces the number of threats in their deck to the equipment and a mother of ruins supported weenie swarm.
Goblins: He blocks lackeys on turn one, gains life as the game goes on and reduces the effect of wasteland mana denial allowing us to keep playing spells while under duress. Picks up equipment.
Blade: Stops snapcaster from abusing the graveyard, also will cause enough life loss if not answered. Picks up equipment.
Miracles: Stops snapcaster from abusing the graveyard, also will cause enough life loss if not answered. Picks up equipment.
Show and Tell: Accelerates disruption and keeps tempo going off of wastelands.
Obviously he does worse against some decks but he is a positive asset and improvement to the deck over any other option.
He is playing very nice with stoneforge mystic in that he helps hard cast equipment when the mystic gets killed.
In addition current list:
Creatures: 17
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Lilliana of the Veil
Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 extirpate
3 choke
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile
The abrupt decays took my slots over more discard, which has caused me to move teeg back to the main to help against the evil combo devil.
@lavafrogg
in the end, it falls into playing styles, I guess. I had ridiculously easy MUs against rug, team america, goblins, combo decks, etc. I think the 2 losses over 18 matches is ok....
However, I am willing to give up 2 removal slots to test shaman (maybe in a few weeks), but adding shamans means giving up on goyves. Then, sfm + batter is definitely a must.
On a side note, i must give in to matt: garruk is much better than elspeth - he does more than her in terms of usefullness in this deck.
Told you :P
-Matt