[Deck] GW/x Maverick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow

Its not really a coward's response to say play another deck. One of the fundamentals of tournament play is to play the meta and adapt.

Some decks typically fall out of flavor because of the meta, i.e. merfolk goblins. But when certain decks come back, other decks also make a resurgence.

The rock, paper, scissor rule still applies regardless.

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The individual is on a maverick thread asking for sideboard help of a maverick deck. To me that means they obviously intend to play maverick. So instead of insulting their intelligence and giving them the generic answer of "play another deck" which I'm sure they could have figured out on their own as being the easiest way to gain a better match up vs the said decks. I couldn't agree more playing that meta and adapting is a fundamental of tournament play and that's exactly what they were asking for was ways to adapt their maverick deck for the meta. Maybe cowardly was the wrong word to use and instead I should have said instead of offering a generic useless answer such as "play another deck" offer them some constructive advice since the specifically asked on how to improve their maverick deck for that meta. As an avid maverick player I would just like to see more constructive comments on the thread to help the deck be as successful as possible and not rely on the excuse of a tough meta so just put the deck on the shelf. Lets help the deck ADAPT and prosper for the players who do want to play it.

You can rebuild your sideboard:

VS Belcher - EE/Phyrexian Revoker/Mindbreak Trap
VS Elves - more Jitte/CotV/Linvala/Ethersworn Canonist/Phyrexian Revoker
VS Storm - Mindbreak Trap/CotV/Gaddock
VS Enchantress - Tranquil Grove/Ethersworn Canonist

Pack E.Tutor to maximize your sideboard slots and those MU should be emproved.

Example:
SB
1 EE
2 E.Tutor
3 Mindbreak Trap/Chalice of the Void
1 Tranquil Grove
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 other slots

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ecstatic_Conch

What can I do to improve my match-ups against the decks I've mentioned? Is it a lost cause?

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To me, it indeed is a lost cause.
Maverick isn't equipped to win enough games in such a meta to be a good choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Canes25

The individual is on a maverick thread asking for sideboard help of a maverick deck.

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To me, it sounds like he was asking if there's any hope or is, as he asked, a lost cause.

I can't think of a worse idea than playing Maverick in a meta filled with combo and Miracle, it's just a waste of money and time to play a tournament with Maverick in those conditions.

In a regular meta you could hope to avoid the few combo decks or win a match by lucksacking, but it's not an option for him.

Playing your pet deck no matter what means you're not playing to win, shifting to Rock is an easy task and that deck has a FAR better combo MU.

Back in the days of Survival people in meta like this would add Black for discard and Pernicious Deed. It is really a heartbreaking decision as you need to cut some of the cool cards you have learned to love. For instance GBW Survivals would cut Moms and rely on discard to protect their critters. On top of that it is still not an auto-win and you will loose games, but at the very least you are not sitting there without any interaction with the combo player.

Sadly I don't think that splashing black would allow for good Zenith targets (but I am not too up to date in that regard), but I guess you could also use Abrupt Decay. Note also, that adding the discard package makes this deck much harder to pilot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ecstatic_Conch

What advice would you give to a maverick player like me who operates in a meta game where combo runs rampant? Belcher, storm, enchantress, elves, and sneak and show are just a few of the decks in my meta. My record is pretty abysmal, and I'm so desperate I'm even thinking of adding glowriders to my main. I'm not sure if that would help enough, especially since it costs 3 and would likely come down too late. Would aven mindcensor help me out at all? Oh, and if that wasn't bad enough, there's at least two people that play U/W miracles too. My mainboard is pretty standard fare, but I'm still running the slow stoneforge package with sword of fire and ice + sword of light and shadow. My sideboard looks something like this:

1 Bojuka Bog
3 Path to Exile (likely should be oblivion ring)
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Armageddon
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

What can I do to improve my match-ups against the decks I've mentioned? Is it a lost cause?

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Here's what I would do. Sit down and make a list of each deck in your meta and how many of each. Then retool your 75 to give yourself the best chance to fight your meta. Could be you just need to rearrange some cards, change numbers and strengthen your sb. I've played in a combo rich meta for awhile and haven't done too bad. The best thing about maverick is it is super reliable and punishes variance quite well. Sure your not going to beat combo's god hands but you can set yourself up to make sure there punished if they don't get it. As for some card ideas I would say Pithing Needle and oring are a good place to start. Make sure you have 4 Thalia main. I personally think the number one thing to do is make sure you keep it to where you are comfortable playing the card choices. If you like the sfm package then I recommend cutting the fire and ice for Jitte main.

I've been tooling with this in an effort to keep Mav going. I feel like the meta is turning away from Mav, but there may be a list that can survive. I think if the recent SCG is any clue of where the meta is headed than BUG and Miracles are going to be driving a lot of the action. Combo will probably be limited to dredge and some version of a SnT deck. If BUG and Miracles become prominet I think they create space for Goblins and Merfok to become relevant again.(Goblins has been, I mean more positive trends for Fish). RUG is declining as well and that's a trend I expect to continue as cards like Deathrite Shaman really make playing that deck miserable. I'm expecting to take a BUG deck to Denver, but I love Mav so here is another effort for this fine, fair deck.

Mav

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Windswept Heath X4
Wooded Foothills X2
Savannah X4
Cavern of Souls X3
Gaea's Cradle X1
Karakas X1
Dryad Arbor X1
Forest X1
Plains X2

Artifacts-2-
Sword of Light and Shadow X1
Sword of War and Peace X1

Green-17-
Noble Hierarch X4
Green Sun's Zenith X4
Fauna Shaman X3
Scavenging ooze X2
Sylvan Library X2
Garruk Relentless X1
Scryb Ranger X1

White-11-
Mother of Runes X4
Swords to Plowshares X4
Loyal Retainers X1
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite X1
Elspeth, Knight Errant x1

Gold-7-
Knight of the Reliquary X4
Qasali Pridemage X2
Gaddock Teeg X1

Sideboard-15-
Oblivion Ring X4
Choke X3
Path to Exile X2
Gaddock Teeg X2
Surgical Extraction X1
Crop Rotation X1
Bojuka Bog X1
Linvalla, Keeper of Silence X1

This might be a good version of Mav for the anticipated meta. Thalia in my opinion is one of the reasons mav is declining. She adds to the density of both legendary and one toughness creatures and the amount of drag she creates isn't enough to go with the small clock she provides. As the meta shifts towards miracles, esper and BUG I think the combo decks will decline, in particular the kind of combo we hate, belcher, rapid glass cannon combo decks cant survive with so much blue. I like the Elesh/Retainer package, it makes us a combo deck against all the other aggro decks. We beat Goblins and Merfolk handily with this suite. Elesh is hardcastable with Cradle and she kills everything we dont like.

With the two swords that are pro white, 2 sylvan, one teeg, two planeswalkers main deck we can hang with Miracles game one and then bring in additional Teegs g2 along with choke.

The four O rings are for snt, I expect that to be the dominant combo deck of the next few months and it's a tough one for us, so hopefully O rings and some Karakas/Rotation can get us there. At least we are in it. I am personally 3-0 vs SnT in SCG's with some version of this. I know it's over dedicating, but I trust Mav to just be in it with most match ups, so I overcommit to shoring up weaknesses.

The list still beats RUG and it does OK versus Dredge, all those Teegs stop dread return though dredge can be too fast to care about it. Same goes for storm. The deck beats elves and loses hard to High Tide and Enchantress.

The deck still beats Stoneblade though it's close.

Anyway, I have tested some, but not so much that I feel 100% in any of my assertions. This is just one way that I feel a successful mav strategy could look in a Miracles, BUG driven metagame.

cheers,
defector

Quote:

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Originally Posted by defector

I've been tooling with this in an effort to keep Mav going. I feel like the meta is turning away from Mav, but there may be a list that can survive. I think if the recent SCG is any clue of where the meta is headed than BUG and Miracles are going to be driving a lot of the action. Combo will probably be limited to dredge and some version of a SnT deck. If BUG and Miracles become prominet I think they create space for Goblins and Merfok to become relevant again.(Goblins has been, I mean more positive trends for Fish). RUG is declining as well and that's a trend I expect to continue as cards like Deathrite Shaman really make playing that deck miserable. I'm expecting to take a BUG deck to Denver, but I love Mav so here is another effort for this fine, fair deck.

Mav

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Windswept Heath X4
Wooded Foothills X2
Savannah X4
Cavern of Souls X3
Gaea's Cradle X1
Karakas X1
Dryad Arbor X1
Forest X1
Plains X2

Artifacts-2-
Sword of Light and Shadow X1
Sword of War and Peace X1

Green-17-
Noble Hierarch X4
Green Sun's Zenith X4
Fauna Shaman X3
Scavenging ooze X2
Sylvan Library X2
Garruk Relentless X1
Scryb Ranger X1

White-11-
Mother of Runes X4
Swords to Plowshares X4
Loyal Retainers X1
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite X1
Elspeth, Knight Errant x1

Gold-7-
Knight of the Reliquary X4
Qasali Pridemage X2
Gaddock Teeg X1

Sideboard-15-
Oblivion Ring X4
Choke X3
Path to Exile X2
Gaddock Teeg X2
Surgical Extraction X1
Crop Rotation X1
Bojuka Bog X1
Linvalla, Keeper of Silence X1

This might be a good version of Mav for the anticipated meta. Thalia in my opinion is one of the reasons mav is declining. She adds to the density of both legendary and one toughness creatures and the amount of drag she creates isn't enough to go with the small clock she provides. As the meta shifts towards miracles, esper and BUG I think the combo decks will decline, in particular the kind of combo we hate, belcher, rapid glass cannon combo decks cant survive with so much blue. I like the Elesh/Retainer package, it makes us a combo deck against all the other aggro decks. We beat Goblins and Merfolk handily with this suite. Elesh is hardcastable with Cradle and she kills everything we dont like.

With the two swords that are pro white, 2 sylvan, one teeg, two planeswalkers main deck we can hang with Miracles game one and then bring in additional Teegs g2 along with choke.

The four O rings are for snt, I expect that to be the dominant combo deck of the next few months and it's a tough one for us, so hopefully O rings and some Karakas/Rotation can get us there. At least we are in it. I am personally 3-0 vs SnT in SCG's with some version of this. I know it's over dedicating, but I trust Mav to just be in it with most match ups, so I overcommit to shoring up weaknesses.

The list still beats RUG and it does OK versus Dredge, all those Teegs stop dread return though dredge can be too fast to care about it. Same goes for storm. The deck beats elves and loses hard to High Tide and Enchantress.

The deck still beats Stoneblade though it's close.

Anyway, I have tested some, but not so much that I feel 100% in any of my assertions. This is just one way that I feel a successful mav strategy could look in a Miracles, BUG driven metagame.

cheers,
defector

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elesh norn-reatiners package is good only in maverick-infested meta. You can win against goblins and merfolks easily without it. Play Thalia. At least 2 if you don't like its legendarity. It buys turns against miralces in early game and does things against bug. Don't play RW sword, it does nothing. If you want 2 swords with pro-white put the second light and shadow. And where is jitte?

The Fauna Shaman might not be correct, I just like having a 7 CMC beater with all the AD running around. I don't like Jitte right now. It's a great card, but it doesn't seem to help any of our difficult match ups at all. I think its win more or irrelavant by and large in the current meta. The turns that Thalia gets us versus Miracles don't seem relevant to winning the mu. Terminus for 1W is still a bargain. Jace for 3UU on an empty board is still a bargain. I really hate her now, and maybe I am wrong, but it seems like the Thalia driven Mav decks just become more and more tier 2. i could see cutting the SoWaP for a SoLaS, but punishing control decks for their hands isn't terrible. I don't know. It feels like Mav just doesn't face teh current meta very well right now and what can be done to make it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by defector

I've been tooling with this in an effort to keep Mav going. I feel like the meta is turning away from Mav, but there may be a list that can survive. I think if the recent SCG is any clue of where the meta is headed than BUG and Miracles are going to be driving a lot of the action. Combo will probably be limited to dredge and some version of a SnT deck. If BUG and Miracles become prominet I think they create space for Goblins and Merfok to become relevant again.(Goblins has been, I mean more positive trends for Fish). RUG is declining as well and that's a trend I expect to continue as cards like Deathrite Shaman really make playing that deck miserable. I'm expecting to take a BUG deck to Denver, but I love Mav so here is another effort for this fine, fair deck.

Mav

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Windswept Heath X4
Wooded Foothills X2
Savannah X4
Cavern of Souls X3
Gaea's Cradle X1
Karakas X1
Dryad Arbor X1
Forest X1
Plains X2

Artifacts-2-
Sword of Light and Shadow X1
Sword of War and Peace X1

Green-17-
Noble Hierarch X4
Green Sun's Zenith X4
Fauna Shaman X3
Scavenging ooze X2
Sylvan Library X2
Garruk Relentless X1
Scryb Ranger X1

White-11-
Mother of Runes X4
Swords to Plowshares X4
Loyal Retainers X1
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite X1
Elspeth, Knight Errant x1

Gold-7-
Knight of the Reliquary X4
Qasali Pridemage X2
Gaddock Teeg X1

Sideboard-15-
Oblivion Ring X4
Choke X3
Path to Exile X2
Gaddock Teeg X2
Surgical Extraction X1
Crop Rotation X1
Bojuka Bog X1
Linvalla, Keeper of Silence X1

This might be a good version of Mav for the anticipated meta. Thalia in my opinion is one of the reasons mav is declining. She adds to the density of both legendary and one toughness creatures and the amount of drag she creates isn't enough to go with the small clock she provides. As the meta shifts towards miracles, esper and BUG I think the combo decks will decline, in particular the kind of combo we hate, belcher, rapid glass cannon combo decks cant survive with so much blue. I like the Elesh/Retainer package, it makes us a combo deck against all the other aggro decks. We beat Goblins and Merfolk handily with this suite. Elesh is hardcastable with Cradle and she kills everything we dont like.

With the two swords that are pro white, 2 sylvan, one teeg, two planeswalkers main deck we can hang with Miracles game one and then bring in additional Teegs g2 along with choke.

The four O rings are for snt, I expect that to be the dominant combo deck of the next few months and it's a tough one for us, so hopefully O rings and some Karakas/Rotation can get us there. At least we are in it. I am personally 3-0 vs SnT in SCG's with some version of this. I know it's over dedicating, but I trust Mav to just be in it with most match ups, so I overcommit to shoring up weaknesses.

The list still beats RUG and it does OK versus Dredge, all those Teegs stop dread return though dredge can be too fast to care about it. Same goes for storm. The deck beats elves and loses hard to High Tide and Enchantress.

The deck still beats Stoneblade though it's close.

Anyway, I have tested some, but not so much that I feel 100% in any of my assertions. This is just one way that I feel a successful mav strategy could look in a Miracles, BUG driven metagame.

cheers,
defector

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I don't get how this deck is good against miracles. Please explain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by defector

The Fauna Shaman might not be correct, I just like having a 7 CMC beater with all the AD running around. I don't like Jitte right now. It's a great card, but it doesn't seem to help any of our difficult match ups at all. I think its win more or irrelavant by and large in the current meta. The turns that Thalia gets us versus Miracles don't seem relevant to winning the mu. Terminus for 1W is still a bargain. Jace for 3UU on an empty board is still a bargain. I really hate her now, and maybe I am wrong, but it seems like the Thalia driven Mav decks just become more and more tier 2. i could see cutting the SoWaP for a SoLaS, but punishing control decks for their hands isn't terrible. I don't know. It feels like Mav just doesn't face teh current meta very well right now and what can be done to make it?

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I have to agree I do not think the fauna shaman retainers package is correct for this meta. Thalia is not going to out right win the match up but she is part of the plan to make things harder on them along with our other disruption such as choke, wasteland, armageddon, pithing needle, phyrexian revoker or whatever particular card that is used for the match up. Sticking and protecting a Teeg with mother, safekeeper, or a pro white sword is going to be our best line to victory I believe. Sword of Light and shadow is obviously good vs. miracle and stoneblade decks. I have never played a sword of war and peace so I can not speak to its effectivness. I do agree it does seem kind of limited but at the same time vs a deck such as miracles or stoneblade where the primary removal is white and they like to have a grip full of cards I could possibly see its merits with adding a significant amount of pressure for a low investment cost. Having never played it in a sanctioned match or testing session I wont discount it or sing its praises though.

My reasoning with the elesh package is that it beats all the other aggro decks as well as elves, i didnt put it in for miracles mu specifically. The teeg, sylvan library, pw, and swords(all im really focusing on is pro white) are for the miracles mu. Sylvan is the best card we can play to punish opposing stp. I think the five slots in the retainer package are flex slots. I think the sylvans, pw, and some mix of pro white effects and teeg are paramount for this deck to survive as the meta turns over into a miracles/bug driven meta. I think if mav is going to stay relevant its going to need a serious retooling. How thats going to end up looking is hard to guess. I think nothing is sacred though and everything needs to be evaluated. The meta is still murky too once the dust settles we'll have a better picture.

The decline continues: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE. Now Goblins is a more successful tourney deck than Mav.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by defector

The decline continues: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE. Now Goblins is a more successful tourney deck than Mav.

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Thanks for stating the obvious, want a cookie?

No need to be a cunt about it. The facts are facts. The archetype is in big trouble. I think it's just one of the downsides of not running blue, you end up with less inherent flexibility to change. I'd like to see a way to save it, but I don't know what it will take. Maybe we're waiting on a new card, some Human that can give the list the flexibility to get back on top. Hard to say, but so far no one seems able to sort it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by defector

No need to be a cunt about it. The facts are facts. The archetype is in big trouble. I think it's just one of the downsides of not running blue, you end up with less inherent flexibility to change. I'd like to see a way to save it, but I don't know what it will take. Maybe we're waiting on a new card, some Human that can give the list the flexibility to get back on top. Hard to say, but so far no one seems able to sort it out.

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I would disagree with the lack of flexibillity, Maverick, unlike most decks in the format, doesn't really have a clearly defined core, other than Mother of Runes, it's a jack of all trades, it can play control, it can play aggro, it's problem is that when faced with a linear aggro/combo/control deck, it's answers just simply aren't enough at times or they are too slow, we can beat miracles, no one really is ever going to dispute that, the problem is, getting gaddock teeg + protection is both a) difficult and b) slow.

I do agree on the second part, I think the deck needs another effective tool to fight control.

You should try the list that Door posted. Is kinda better agaisnt decks like miracle.

Honestly the results should be taken with a grain of salt. The only results that I pay attention to is the results I have testing and tourney results I put up. Maverick hasn't failed me yet, and until it does I'm going to play it. That doesn't mean the list doesn't need tweaked from time to time but that's what testing is for. To me splashing another doesn't really seem good to me. I feel gw has all the tools and the ability to fight the current meta.

I don't really play Maverick much my self, but for beating control, it seem's like you could go back to using threats that will survive your typical board wipe or have flash:

-Elspeth, Knight-Errant -- this card has always been great, not sure why Maverick lists have mostly dropped it.
-Garruk Relentless -- similar to Elspeth
-Restoration Angel -- could be useful with anything with a CitP ability, such as Stoneforge Mystic -- Batterskull is also a legitimate, recursive threat
-Dust Elemental -- unlikely, but could be randomly amazing as a way to save your dudes from a Terminus.. and is a big threat in general
-Yeva, Nature's Herald -- unlikely
-Treetop Village or other man-lands. Most UWx decks don't tend to play Wasteland.

Instead of Gaddock Teeg, you could also play the Iona package to cut your opponent off of playing White.

The deck could also consider slaying some sacred cows... I think the format has kind of adapted to Mother of Runes, and perhaps it's time to start playing a different card in its place. Maybe move her to the sideboard for the matchups where you actually need her.

Sylvan Library is such a huge bomb against control, and while it is useless in multiples, I think a green deck that's not playing blue should probably run 2-3 copies of this.

Splashing a third color is always a valid option, though obviously you start becoming more of a different deck. I think GW has the tools to adapt, I think people just need to reconsider the list and change some cards around.

the meta is changing, miracle is disappearing and aggro is come back into fashing as well as stoneblade and tempo.
why we dont take a re-shuffle of all and come back for ex take in consideration klocker's gp list.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/9421#128888

The only reason Esper is coming back is because Linger Souls is good against Terminus. Anything making multiple creatures/a token generator is going to be very good against a very slow deck like Miracles.

I think Miracles hasn't yet retooled well to deal with the problem of facing Lingering Souls, but a few switches can easily solve the issue. I do think Miracles is the better deck.

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I was playing my test Maverick list last night, and I still feel like there's lots of potential left with Maverick to combat the format. I'll admit, I have selfish reasons for pushing Maverick, but Maverick doesn't have to be garbage in the meta. If you can play around Terminus, you're fine. We just need different threats that don't need as much support as Knight. To make Knight the beast he is, we usually have Mother of Runes, Noble, and some other creature in play for protection and such, leaving an opportunity of a 3-for-1 or more against us. That's pretty awful.

Wcm8, Dust Elemental seems VERY intriguing. Even returning three useless dudes at EOT to start swinging for six in the air (with fear, so no Angel blocks) seems like a possible bomb against Miracles. In addition, they only run 3-4 4-drops, so sneaking in under a Counterbalance should be fine.

I think Mother of Runes is good, but I think at this point, we should not be afraid to cut her if we were to find something better.

I'll post a prospective list in a bit when I think of something :P

-Matt