I think people saw Caleb's success with his 14 land build. I guess it's fine if you don't expect Wasteland decks, and I usually see people on 15 lands side out one vs Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
Printable View
I think people saw Caleb's success with his 14 land build. I guess it's fine if you don't expect Wasteland decks, and I usually see people on 15 lands side out one vs Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
the land somehow looks like an "easy cut" ... you can ask the same about 2 Islands, the answer is simple - netdeckingQuote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
= netdecking // I don't know why I'd go down a land when long game is a reasonable expectation a deck diluted by heavy SB, I do the opposite - substitute fetches for real lands if available, basicaly SBing out only basics only vs. comboQuote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Play 2 echoing truth in the sb. Its good vs tegg and chalice (even 2 chalice) also good vs spheres because of its castable of basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyout
I'm pretty new to the deck and I started by running 14 because I saw that a lot of lists were. I've been vacillating between including a fifteenth and including a third Duress because I kept finding that on 14, I would get Wasted out of the game really quickly, and on 15, I'd just draw a ton of lands in my openers. Two tournaments ago, I got hosed by Pox because Sinkhole can really wreck decks that run a minimal number of lands, and a few weeks back I got Wasted twice by a Maverick player. Maybe my opponents got lucky draws, but I'm not sure 14 is a safe bet if there's a significant amount of land-hate in the metagame. I tried running a Badlands last time I ran the deck and it worked out pretty well. I misplayed really hard in my first match, so I went 1-2, but I'm thinking a fifteenth land is probably a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
So Sunday I played three rounds and (as I said) I went 1-2. Empty the Warrens did a TON of work, so I'm keeping it in the main in place of a second Dark Petition.
Round 1: Twelve-Post/Sixteen-Post(?) (1-2)
G1: Made the Past in Flames-Tendrils chain in game 1 while my opponent was configuring for Eldrazi.
G2: I stormed out for 12 goblins (turn 3?), but my opponent used Expedition Map to find a Tabernacle. He kept expanding and I lost almost all the goblins in short order without the resources to stage a comeback.
G3: I misplayed this game HARD. I started by hitting paydirt with two Therapies, then I stormed out a bunch of goblins. At this point, a reasonable player would've sacrificed two goblins to strip the Wurmcoil Engine and the Conduit of Ruin out of the opponent's hand, then swung for the fences. I, however, forgot Cabal Therapy has flashback, and I passed the turn. Not my finest hour. Wurmcoil, Conduit, and Kozilek sealed the deal, though it was a hard-fought victory for my opponent.
I think this deck is a recent brew, but it's a good one. Excellent sideboard answers, quick ramp for hard-casting Eldrazi, excellent creatures like Wurmcoil (maybe Batterskull?), and a lot of utility cards like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith. As I recall, the sideboard was packing serious business, including at least three each of Chalice and Sphere of Resistance. Interesting list that I'm interested in examining more closely next time I see the guy who owns it. My errors aside, this was a really good match all around.
Round 2: Jund (1-2)
G1: I stormed out 12 Goblins on turn 1. My opponent scooped furiously.
G2, G3: My recollection is a bit patchy, but I got Junded out. Retrospectively, I probably should've kept only a single Empty and added some disruption to the deck. I didn't (boarding in two more Empties), and it didn't pay off. In, I think, G2, I got Hymned really hard and I couldn't get back into the game. The third game, I think, I stormed out goblins again, but he was prepared to swing with Dark Confidant and Tarmo, all while sitting on a hand with both Maelstrom Pulse and Pyroclasm. I couldn't find a way through. Thoughtseize was difficult in both G2 and G3, but I could have played around it with a second Past in Flames.
I think I could've done better in this matchup if I'd boarded in a second Past in Flames and maybe a third Duress instead of running three copies of Empty. In retrospect I was pretty much walking into the boatload of hate Jund can bring against large-scale token generation, but I was really worried about Hymn. If I were to play the match again, I would board in a second copy of Past in Flames without question. Surprisingly, this was the first match I'd played against Jund. Lesson learned, I guess.
Round 3: Pox (2-0)
G1: I managed to avoid both Hymn and Sinkhole this game, and it paid off with a big Tendrils even after getting Inquisitioned and Blackmailed.
G2: 12 Goblins on turn 1.
I think I lucked out pretty hard in game 1, and after boarding, I think I lucked into my opponent's not going Dark Rit->Engineered Plague. This was the same guy who'd burned out my entire hand G1 and blown up my three lands G2 two weeks ago. In game 2, though, I noticed a line of play I wouldn't have considered, and which I would have been unable to pull off without an Empty in the main (I only sided in a Past in Flames). He played first, and I was sitting on a hand with 2 lands, 2 Infernal Tutors, 2 LEDs, and a Lotus Petal. My first draw was a Dark Ritual, so I just went off and my opponent conceded. [EDIT: N.B.: I kept an LED on the board when I comboed in case I got hit with Engineered Plague or something rather than going for 14 Goblins by chaining another Tutor. Every little Lotus Petal helps!]
So Empty the Warrens has a lot of issues, primarily the presence of cards like Tabernacle, Deathrite, Engineered Explosives, Wurmcoil Engine, and Batterskull, and in this deck we shouldn't count on Emptying for more than ten or twelve goblins in a realistic scenario. With all that said, I think it's an excellent main-deck singleton in a deck that runs a maindeck Badlands. I won two games off a turn-1 combo with Empty in the main, and I really should've won a third game with it except that I was being an idiot. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to run three copies in the 75, but at least two seems like a pretty reasonable configuration against decks that can't rush a Batterskull and aren't running heavy token-hate. For the time being, my sideboard is the same as the one I posted a week ago, but I'm considering replacing the third Empty with a second Dark Petition for less "go-for-broke" matchups. Anybody have any ideas?
R2 - multiple EtW vs. Jund is not advisable, DRS decks can often race you
R3G2 - you have a Tutor chain here, no worries about Plague
Whoops! Didn't think of the whole "find another diamond" thing. Wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten to cast Tutor without hellbent. Thanks for mentioning it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Also, right on about Deathrite.
hi everyone! i've started to play the deck just one month ago. but after some testing online and in a tournaments i saw that:
1) there's need 5 tutors (i'm playing 2 nauseam because there are many discard decks, random decks and miracles as well)
2) 14 lands with 3 basics are enough, the only problems is that we have to play tropical in the SB
3) confidant and the second ToA in the sb are the best answer against miracle (wich is the only deck i have afraid)
4) i'm no sure about empty, it seems work but is not a killer imho
this is the list:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Sensei’s Diving Top
2 Preordain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eyed Diamond
2 Underground Sea
1 Badland
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Dark Confidant
3 Dread of Night
1 Tropical Island
1) It's important that people come to their own conclusions but the "5-tutor necessity" is something that was discussed by Carsten Kötter already some years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
2) Also a thing I learnt from Carsten back in those years. This deck works well with 14 lands (that is why most of the times the Swamp gets boarded out in some MUs) but there are decks where you want to make
your landdrops safely. I wouldn't leave the house without 15 lands. Mr. Turtenwald (let's not talk about if he is popular or not) wrote somewhere on his take on UWR Delver (post-TNN) that it is the worst thing to mull because of no lands in hand (forget about Petals, they don't support a certain boardstate)
3) Never played Confidant but it seems to be very player dependent. Second Tendrils certainly is a solid option.
4) I share you thoughts here.
All in all, I tend to have another view on the list. There are some things that, in my opinion/experience, are contradictions or problems such as: 14 lands and Top, 7 discard spells (I think 6 and 2nd PiF are the best way), not sure about the 2nd Island in context of 14 lands (and your very black SB) since I never played such a configuration. Also, I would recommend running at least one Krosan Grip which is superior to the 4th Decay. It is especially good against MUD where you can Grip a Golem. I managed to Grip a Blood Moon last week with one Petal (my two duals where tapped).
against Mud krosan on golem seems hard ihmo (4 mana) but i see the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
14lands and top is not a contraction, i mean , top still the best card against a field with control decks and discard spells and help with the second nauseam as well :smile:
Yes, it is hard but still possible. You take their number one clock in that way. I could see 14 lands, 2 AdN, and 1 Chrome Mox for better flips.Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
Whew ...this Round 10 Storm v Miracles match is rough. Storm player took a shit line and I bet it'll cost him the match.
Had 4 cards in yard, 3 lands in play (w one fetch) and his hand was Petal, Cabal Rit , Cabal Rit, Tutor.
Crack fetch, crack petal, play 1 cabal Rit to gain Threshold then next Cabal and Tutor for PiF. Instead he runs out both his rituals and just makes 10 goblins ....
Also played his discard super early so had no insurance on combo turn ...
for some reason can't see replay now, but until the combo turn I'd have played the same only fetched prior to drawing... if he failed to see the Pif line or played around whatever, well... there was a plenty of small mistakes in the mirror match D1, and Caleb made some stupid mistake R10...Quote:
Originally Posted by BeardTron
edit - can see now, failed to achieve threshold... ironicaly enough the +2B would win even in the EtW line... and wins nonetheless =D
Ya he still pulled it out. Ya, I was a bit surprised to see Caleb stumble a bit. Still got there. Sometimes the deck is good to us despite some errors :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
The two Top 8 lists from the SCG New Jersey Legacy Open this weekend:
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Other Blue Fetchland
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dark Petition
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
Caleb Scherer: +1 Rain of Filth, +1 Dark Petition
Ross Merriam: +1 Other Blue Fetchland, +1 Cabal Therapy
Caleb's Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Disfigure
1 Rebuild
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
Ross' Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Tropical Island
Does anyone else think that game 3 of the semis ross should have cast tendrils before ad naus?
Board state is
Opponent
3 lands
Knight and bib in play
Thalia, teeg, lilly in hand
19 life
Ross
5 life
Casts probe for life
Brainstorm
Chain (bouncing the in play teeg)
Rit
Rit
Petal
Ponder?
Ad naus with 4 availible. Dies to flipped decay and crit
(Has tendrils in hand)
If he tendrils first, gains a bunch, then reloads with ad naus his opponent can die to his own bob trigger, as well as can't replay both hatepieces without a land. He could also play lilly and edict his bob, but that line leaves him with no chance
When he casts Ad Nauseam he is tapped out with 3 mana floating.Quote:
Originally Posted by n0ct3m89
Didnt ross draw delta for the turn giving 9 mana all said and done?
Ross untaps with 4 lands in play as his only permanents, having just EoT chain of vapored Thalia. His hand is: tendrils, AdN, dark rit, probe, chain of vapor. He draws for the turn: brainstorm. He then probes, dropping from 5 to 3 life and probe draws him a cabal rit. His hand is now: tendrils, AdN, dark rit, cab rit, chain, brainstorm. He casts brainstorm and gets: delta, tutor, decay. He then spends a completely unreasonable amount of time - almost 4 full minutes - resloving this brainstorm. He seems to be - and totally fair to be so - quite flustered and ends up putting back delta and decay leaving him with a hand of: tutor, tendrils, AdN, cab rit, dark rit, chain. He has 3 untapped lands (trop, usea, swamp). Storm is 2.
Patrick was saying that he thought AdN and decay were the two obvious cards to put back. He could have then made his land drop (delta) and had 4 untapped lands. If he does this he can: crack delta, get another dual. Tap swamp cast dark rit (storm3), infernal tutor show cab rit (storm4). Cast 2x cab rit (storm6) He now has BBBBBB floating and untapped usea, trop and red dual. He then taps usea to cast chain on teeg (storm7). His hand is now tendrils and he can deal Keating 16 dmg. Keating is then at 3 life and will untap with dark confidant in play. There should be something like 8-10 cards that kill him: his 3 leylines, 2-3 knights 3 Liliana, 1 deluge maybe. He instead opted for the hail mary AdN from 3 life with BBB floating and tendrils in hand, if he finds one of his 3 petals or any ritual before dying he wins. Some combination of a land and an LED also gets him there.
I don't honestly know which has the worst odds.
Here's the kicker though...: Ross used up a petal to EoT cast chain of vapor on Thalia in Keating's end step, which - if you think about it - ended up costing him 2 storm at the gain of 1 mana. The extra mana tapped on your own turn to pay for Thalia's tax from the Chain of Vapor is saved in that you got to keep the petal. Then what he does is target his own petal first and sac a land to copy chain onto Thalia for yet another storm. That is 2 extra storm by my count. Which - as it panned out - would have gotten him there and the one mana loss would not have been an issue.
It's hard to make the correct decision through all that hate with so much pressure though and he had no way to know that it would have gotten him there.
Sounds like a pretty good weekend for Storm all around! At the local, finally came home with a winning record with this deck. Surprised, too; had two terrible matchups, but managed to K.O. Maverick!
R1: Death and Taxes (0-2)
G1: Couldn't find business before Thalia hit the table. So it goes, I guess. He topdecked it, too, so I didn't have any way to knock it out early.
G2: Made a hideously stupid play here. I sided out one Cabal Ritual because I was worried about getting Thalia-ed again. Turns out Tutor for Cabal Ritual was the only play I could make to get to ten spells, and I'd sided it out D: Lost to an opponent on 2 life because I didn't draw a critical mass in time to seal it away. Gotta laugh at myself over this one.
R2: Dead Guy Ale(?) (2-0)
G1: Lots of tokens made an appearance, but the opponent's Sword of Body and Mind actually saved me. I milled ten, including some rituals, a Tutor, and a Past in Flames. Opponent conceded.
G2: Kept a no-lander with a ton of gas. Drew into a land and went off, and the guy conceded again. I made an error here, too, in that I searched up Empty the Warrens instead of Tendrils only to notice that I'd cast ten spells. Guess it didn't matter here, but I need to be more careful.
R3: Maverick (2-0)
G1: Stormed for 10-14 Goblins turn 1
G2: Rinse and repeat
Whew! So Empty definitely provides a quick out. I'm thinking about moving Ad Naus to the board because I've not gotten much use out of it lately. Also, I'm finding that red mana's never really an issue with a Badlands and a Volc in the main. What's everyone think of a second maindeck Dark Petition instead of AdN? [EDITED for clarity:] I keep having the potential for a sub-5 amount of mana (excluding things like LED), so I can't cast Ad Naus quickly, and it feels like Empty is a better quick-draw, so I haven't had any reason to tutor for it. Petition's also slow, though, and it can be a tad finnicky, so I'm not totally sure yet. Any thoughts?
All in all, a pretty good weekend, even if I got more than my daily value of salt in rounds 2 and 3. I finally feel like I'm learning how things work, even if I'm still making stupid errors occasionally. It cost me the match in round 1, but that was the only time I did anything that really failed hard yesterday. I'm afflicted with a curse of some kind, in that I seem to blunder into a match loss every first round, then turn things around afterward.
@nevilshute
Thanks for the summary and your analysis. As for the chain of vapor EOT, it's a hard decision since you have no idea what you're going to draw (cabal ritual off probe and tutor off brainstorm). A few of these Storm losses on camera could have been easily solved by Empty the Warrens. I've been playing with Ad Nauseam in the SB and Empty in the maindeck. It's a matter of preference I guess but Empty allows you to go off way more often turn 1/turn 2 (I also play 2 dark petition). It's also easier to go through Daze and Pierce since you only need 4 mana post-tutor (you need 5 for AdN and at least 5 for PiF). I'm fairly new to Storm but have been playing with this configuration at my local with very good results. Perhaps AdN main is better vs a Miracles infested meta and Empty is better in a Delver infested meta (which is exactly what mine is).