Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@: Zerog
First off, grats on going so well with the deck! And also, don't apologize about your English which is very good.
I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that you don't think TNN is an issue. I've found it to be a huge issue. Especially in more controlling Stoneforge builds like Esper/Deathblade (there are also a couple of UW Control Blade decks in my meta). Those games tend to go very long and they have enough land (and basics) to render our mana denial plan sub-optimal eventually. Within that sort of context, their 3-4 TNNs provides a quite grim inevitability imo, especially in game 1.
Maybe in more tempo oriented shells like UWR delverTNN, the TNNs are less of an issue because our mana plan can hurt them a lot more.
Then again, I'm fairly inexperienced with the deck, being a combo player at heart, so it might just be that shining through :smile:
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nevilshute
@: Zerog
First off, grats on going so well with the deck! And also, don't apologize about your English which is very good.
I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that you don't think TNN is an issue. I've found it to be a huge issue. Especially in more controlling Stoneforge builds like Esper/Deathblade (there are also a couple of UW Control Blade decks in my meta). Those games tend to go very long and they have enough land (and basics) to render our mana denial plan sub-optimal eventually. Within that sort of context, their 3-4 TNNs provides a quite grim inevitability imo, especially in game 1.
Maybe in more tempo oriented shells like UWR delverTNN, the TNNs are less of an issue because our mana plan can hurt them a lot more.
Then again, I'm fairly inexperienced with the deck, being a combo player at heart, so it might just be that shining through :smile:
Mostly i just try to fly over TNN and disable any equipments they might have in play with revokers. Ofcourse he still is annoying and sometimes he is just gonna connect with a jitte and we're gonna lose. Mindcensor is good against stoneforge also.
I haven't played that much against deathblade or patriot so I might be wrong, but the matchups still feel ok to me. They're still playing a 3 colored deck against my wasteland, port, thalia deck. If you really want a boardcard against TNN i guess Holy light might be ok, since it also hits elves(which is a bad matchup). But i don't like casting 3 mana spells against tempo decks when i also want to have thalia in play.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Holy Light is a card. Pretty nice option to have vs. Elves, Goblins, unflipped Delvers, unthreshed Mongeese, Grim Lavamancers, various tokens, and of course, True-Name Nemesis. (Yes, it is a 3-drop, but most TNN decks will likely be boarding out their counterspells against you.)
Not quite as elegant as something like Zealous Persecution, but it gets the job done without having to splash into another color.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Holy Light is a card. Pretty nice option to have vs. Elves, Goblins, unflipped Delvers, unthreshed Mongeese, Grim Lavamancers, various tokens, and of course, True-Name Nemesis. (Yes, it is a 3-drop, but most TNN decks will likely be boarding out their counterspells against you.)
Not quite as elegant as something like Zealous Persecution, but it gets the job done without having to splash into another color.
yes, I saw this in a recent SCG deck. Pretty cool tech.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
So I have been looking at people's deck list over the last several pages and I am wondering why no one is testing(either MB or SB) spirit of the labyrinth. It seems to me that it could be a huge blow out card when most decks run at least 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder if not a few gitaxion probes as well which in legacy is pseudo land for many decks. It breaks the hand sculpting power of combos and even gives us a better chance in one of D&Ts worse match ups(elves) completely ripping the combo seeing as we have mom and they only have maybe a few AD in SB. Did I miss discussion on this card some where? I know it is a hard spot fighting with Thalia, but it seems serra avenger could be cut 2 spots in many builds for this more synergistic card to the game plan
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marowfreeze
So I have been looking at people's deck list over the last several pages and I am wondering why no one is testing(either MB or SB) spirit of the labyrinth. It seems to me that it could be a huge blow out card when most decks run at least 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder if not a few gitaxion probes as well which in legacy is pseudo land for many decks. It breaks the hand sculpting power of combos and even gives us a better chance in one of D&Ts worse match ups(elves) completely ripping the combo seeing as we have mom and they only have maybe a few AD in SB. Did I miss discussion on this card some where? I know it is a hard spot fighting with Thalia, but it seems serra avenger could be cut 2 spots in many builds for this more synergistic card to the game plan
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The problem with spirit of the labyrinth is that he/she doesn't do very much. I like to compare him with Chains of mephistopheles, except tempo decks will just have a removal for him in response to their own brainstorm. Even though he can be good against elves, our main problem with that matchups is the fact that they natural order for a progenitus and kills us. He's just not that good of a hatebear. The best thing i see him doing is beating for 3 against miracledecks.
BTW i think that serra avenger is probably the best card in the deck. You should never play less than 4. I think playing less than 8 creatures with flying in the deck is just bad.
Another thing, I don't like Brimaz.
One last thing about the spirit is that it makes our deck play even more 1 toughness creatures, which can be an issue against golgari charm and other hate(sulfur elemental, marsh casualties, dread of night).
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zerog
The problem with spirit of the labyrinth is that he/she doesn't do very much. I like to compare him with Chains of mephistopheles, except tempo decks will just have a removal for him in response to their own brainstorm. Even though he can be good against elves, our main problem with that matchups is the fact that they natural order for a progenitus and kills us. He's just not that good of a hatebear. The best thing i see him doing is beating for 3 against miracledecks.
BTW i think that serra avenger is probably the best card in the deck. You should never play less than 4. I think playing less than 8 creatures with flying in the deck is just bad.
Another thing, I don't like Brimaz.
One last thing about the spirit is that it makes our deck play even more 1 toughness creatures, which can be an issue against golgari charm and other hate(sulfur elemental, marsh casualties, dread of night).
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...rt=1&finish=16
I'm not sure how it doesn't do much?
The link is to the top 16 from the most recent legacy event in Detroit.
Not counting Jace in any of these decks as he can technically deal with spirit.
12 of the 16 decks run at least 6 cards turned off by spirit (usually 4 brainstorm and some mix of ponder/baleful strix/gitaxion probe)
7 of the top 8 have at least 10 effects turned off by this
5 of those 7 only run 18 or less land with the big game plan of using the cantrips to find the land drops they need.
Prime example
Maverick v rug delver at one point maverick soft locked delver out of cantrips by putting him on one land and having Thalia out. Spirit does the same thing naturally.
How does a card that so effortlessly disrupts over half of the tier 1 decks in the format not "do much"? It slows them down, messes with the efficiency of finding answers and gas, is another target that has to be answered.
The golgari charm/toxic deluge is a valid concern except that is 2/3 spots in side boards again with the thought of using the 6-12 cantrips to find them....
This entire rant is entirely about the 1 card by itself, I have not even talked about the blow out vialing in spirit in response to brainstorm, turning one of the best cards in legacy into one of the worst, or how the deck is already turned nicely to saving our threats with mom and flickerwisp and redundancy
I feel like this card may not be a straight 4 of main, but a 2/2 main/side split sounds like format tech
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marowfreeze
txt on Spirit of the Labyrinth
Wow, it's a 3/1? I thought it was a 2/1. That's interesting. I could definitely see it take some slots away from Serra Avenger. Perhaps I just like how aggressive it is.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
What do you side in/out against Miracles and BUG Delver?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marowfreeze
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...rt=1&finish=16
I'm not sure how it doesn't do much?
The link is to the top 16 from the most recent legacy event in Detroit.
Not counting Jace in any of these decks as he can technically deal with spirit.
12 of the 16 decks run at least 6 cards turned off by spirit (usually 4 brainstorm and some mix of ponder/baleful strix/gitaxion probe)
7 of the top 8 have at least 10 effects turned off by this
5 of those 7 only run 18 or less land with the big game plan of using the cantrips to find the land drops they need.
Prime example
Maverick v rug delver at one point maverick soft locked delver out of cantrips by putting him on one land and having Thalia out. Spirit does the same thing naturally.
How does a card that so effortlessly disrupts over half of the tier 1 decks in the format not "do much"? It slows them down, messes with the efficiency of finding answers and gas, is another target that has to be answered.
The golgari charm/toxic deluge is a valid concern except that is 2/3 spots in side boards again with the thought of using the 6-12 cantrips to find them....
This entire rant is entirely about the 1 card by itself, I have not even talked about the blow out vialing in spirit in response to brainstorm, turning one of the best cards in legacy into one of the worst, or how the deck is already turned nicely to saving our threats with mom and flickerwisp and redundancy
I feel like this card may not be a straight 4 of main, but a 2/2 main/side split sounds like format tech
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The problem is he does less than the other two drops in the deck. What do you take out for him? He's pretty much inarguably worse in a post TNN world than Revoker, Thalia, Stoneforge, and serra avenger. And even three drops like Mangara, Brimaz, Mirran Crusader, and Aven Mindcensor aren't really worth swapping out for it.
It's strong enough to be sided in, but against most decks, what we already play is just plain better than it.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
My list is still mutating with time.
I run 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth MD since my meta is Blue-heavy and got 2 more SB. Might cut 1 in the SB for more option.
At this point, I still run 2 Mangara, but want to swap them for 2 Serra Avenger (absent from my MD all together) since he doesn't do what I want him to do and when he's there, he's simply "win-more".
The 2 Runed Halo MD are simply amazing everytime.
I run a singleton of Brimaz, but might upgrade to 2 since he's that good.
What are your tweaks?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I played in the SCG Detroit to a 5-3 finish (lost to OmniTell, Burn and UWR stoneforge with RestoAngel and wraths). My creature suite was
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
4 Revoker
3 Serra
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz
2 Aven Mindcensor
Serra Avenger was the best creature throughout the day (not counting the obvious Mom and Thalia), it just isn't as vulnerable as many other of the creatures. It survives Punishing Fire and all the -1/-1 effects out of people's sb.
Flying and vigilance also makes it superior to anything else in combat.
In the issue about Spirit of the Labyrinth, I think the question is about finding a balance between 1) disruption-creatures, 2) creatures that dominate combat, and 3) flyers. Therefore, Spirit does not fight with Serra for a maindeck slot, but rather Spirit fights with the likes of Revoker and Mindcensor. What makes Thalia and Serra so good is because they each meet two of the above mentioned criteria. Revoker, Spirit and Brimaz only meets one. I think this criteria is better than just grouping the creatures into 2-drops and 3-drops.
Spirit seems fine though, and I may try one or two maindeck next time.
Also, it is risky to overload on the 1-toughness guys, especially after sb.
The gameplan against TNN is without a doubt to race it, and therefore a critical amount of fliers are required. Also SoFI is very, very good (by itself and not only against TNN), and I think it should be fetched way more often than what I have seen people do.
Brimaz was never relevant to me in the tournament, but since the sample was so small I cannot evaluate him.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I too have been doubting the Cat King's place in my deck. I have shaved him to only 1 copy and put back in a single Mirran Crusader because as it stands my JUND match ups are just horrible.
I have a big tournament coming up next weekend in the form of a SCG Open (in Yokohama!) and would love any and all input on my deck.
My current deck list:
Creature (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Serra Avenger
4x Flickerwisp
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Mirran Crusader
Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifact (7)
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Land (23)
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Eiganjo Castle
Sideboard (15)
2x Celestial Flare
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Rest in Peace
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Disenchant
1x Jötun Grunt
Notes:
0 Horizon Canopy, 1 Eiganjo Castle: I made this swap because the pain from canopy was happening way more often than it's cycle ability. I also have been getting pretty wrecked by punishing fire and this makes Thalia and Brimaz even better. This could very well just be a plains but I am trying this out for now.
4x Flickerwisp, 2x Serra Avenger: Flickerwisp has been my MVP in so many matches it is really hard to imagine me running less than 4 and I strongly suggest everyone to do the same. It is possible I can shave something else for a 3rd Serra Avenger as everyone seems to be speaking to its praises (maybe a 3 drop somewhere) but I have just won too many games off of the wisp to bring him down to less than 4.
Sideboard:
This is kind of a mess. My main concerns are JUND, Elves and TNN and I don't think I really do a great job at stopping any of them. I could really use some good advice on sideboard slots. I know that I want to keep the following: 2x Wilt-Leaf Liege (discard, -1/-1 effects, mostly black), 2x Ethersworn Canonist (Elves, Storm, Enchantress, etc), 2x Rest in Peace (standard graveyard hate), 1x Oblivion Ring (awesome applications across various match ups). That leaves me 8 slots.
2x Enlightened Tutor (I'd like to keep these as I don't run Canopy and it helps me get those silver bullets out and on time)
1x Pithing Needle (basically a 5th revoker but being able to shut off lands has been relevant in match ups)
1x Ratchet Bomb (I am pretty underwhelmed by this card but it seems great against dredge, elves, goblins, delver, etc token decks so I think 1 is good)
1x Disenchant (one of my only answers left against other SFM decks. I like this over manriki gusari for many reasons, mostly its application in non-SFM match ups)
1x Jötun Grunt (testing him out this weekend. I think it will help against JUND and lands which is something I am a little worried about)
2x Celestial Flare (my only dedicated TNN hate at the moment. Not sure if I want to run something like Holy Light instead for the application in other match ups like Elves).
This has turned into a long post. Basically I am looking to shore up match ups against mostly TNN and JUND. Any sideboard (or even main board) suggestions would be great! Thanks!!
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
2 DnT's in the BoM top8, at 2 and 5.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mrjumbo03
2 DnT's in the BoM top8, at 2 and 5.
What time does coverage start tomorrow in CST?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm happy to see the Leonin Arbiter / Ghost Quarter package managing a decent finish. It's a fairly strong set up that I think is under-discussed.
So to start: What does the additional LD help against? How much (positive) splash are you going to get off the Arbiter effect?
Arbiter has some play to it. Vial it in in response to their SFM when they're low on land; what other Searching triggers/effects get play? Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor, GSZ / Natural Order (helps the Elves MU)...
In any case 8 Wastelands + Port is definitely powerful and worth looking at in more depth.
I like that he took 'Skull out of the main. Gutsy. And Veteran Armorer? Damn.
3 STP seems suspect but there was probably a heavy lean towards Control / Combo (inferred from EU meta as well as Aggroloam winning).
And as always, don't know how I feel about the Mindcensors; even with the Ghost Quarter synergy it still seems extraneous with 4 Arbiters.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Isn't it too much to have 26 lands? I mean,yeah you have 12 colorless mana sources but isn't 26 lands too much?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrShine
I'm happy to see the Leonin Arbiter / Ghost Quarter package managing a decent finish. It's a fairly strong set up that I think is under-discussed. In any case 8 Wastelands + Port is definitely powerful and worth looking at in more depth.
So to start: What does the additional LD help against? How much (positive) splash are you going to get off the Arbiter effect?
Seems most relevant versus control - Miracles. Against BUG/Jund midrange if you can catch them without DRite and maybe against non-Stifle Tempo decks thinking like UWR where you can cut them off a color with more ease.
Arbiter has some play to it. Vial it in in response to their SFM when they're low on land; what other Searching triggers/effects get play? Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor, GSZ / Natural Order (helps the Elves MU)...
You got the big ones, but Intuition, Entomb, Imperial Recruiter, Crop Rotation, Goblin Matron, Knight of the Reliquary, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Transmute Artifact, Merchant Scroll, Veteran Explorer, Expedition Map...
I like that he took 'Skull out of the main. Gutsy.
Seems correct in his build, given only 2 MD SFM - drawing the 'Skull w/o a way to cheat it in is clunky.
And Veteran Armorer? Damn.
I think WLL is better than Armorer, but to each their own.
3 STP seems suspect but there was probably a heavy lean towards Control / Combo (inferred from EU meta as well as Aggroloam winning).
This build clearly seemed tuned to the control combo meta - chopping SFMs, Mother, 'Skull and an STP in favor of more disruption.
Mindcensors...
Mindcensor seems even more intrical in this build since the deck is running Ghost Quarter and has dropped Serra Avengers - having that extra flying power and further insurance that Ghost Quarter is Strip Mine seems like a must.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Duck!!
Isn't it too much to have 26 lands? I mean,yeah you have 12 colorless mana sources but isn't 26 lands too much?
It has to be considered that the Wastelands and Ghost Quarters are there mostly as 0cc Stone Rains
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Anyone clued in to why he's running the full set of Spirit of the Labyrinth? I feel like I'd want the last SFMs over a couple of them, at least. Would it be mainly to punish U even further? Stop cantrips digging into land?
@ Duck - I feel like I'd cut down a few of the non-waste non-plains lands; I'd start with removing the Flagstones and Canopy. In fact, I believe I'm going to try it myself soon...
EDIT - Realized that cutting down on SFM is probably due to the anti-synergy with Arbiter. Also noticed the other 2 in the SB. Lots going on here!
