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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
I piloted Scapewish for quite a long while. Currently I've moved away from it because there's quite a lot of Lands and Infect in the local metagame, both of which are really terrible matchups for the deck.
The most recent list I ran was this:
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Scapeshift
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Painful Truths
Sideboard:
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 From the Ashes
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
The deck is actualy still pretty good. I personally went for a more combo plan, which I think you have to in this metagame. Huntmaster, Thragtusk and similar guys just aren't good enough for a beatdown plan to really work well, but they do make pretty reasonable roadblocks.
The netdeck that I piloted was far more linear than what you have here. I feel that a Miracles player running blood moon/s in the SB would have completely hosed me. I have included the list below. It has some game but effectively plays like that GR titan shift in modern with hand disruption and less like a traditional BGx deck.
Main
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Painful Truths
3 Scapeshift
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Primeval Titan
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
Sideboard
1 Karakas
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Rude Awakening
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Dreadbore
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
It isn't worth going that hard on the combo. Problem is that no matter what you attempt, you're never going to be as far as other combo decks in the room, and every deck is going to have disruption for you because Wasteland is a very commonly played disruption piece. The list will also have a ton of trouble against counterspells since you can't apply pressure much other than by trying to combo. Trying to speed up the gameplan at the exclusion of your control / midrange ability isn't really worth it.
I'd say the 'core' Scapeshift tools you definitely want access to are:
- Maindeck:
10-12 Mountains, 2 Valakuts
Scapeshifts
Veterans
Therapy
Burning Wish
Zeniths
Tops
Deeds
Zenithable immediate ramp (STE)
Eternal Witness
Abrupt Decays
Lifegain creature (Huntmaster or Thragtusk)
- Sideboard:
Scapeshift
Sweeper
Slaughter Games
Pithing Needles
Extraction effect (more Slaughter Games or Surgical or both)
Innocent Blood
Planeswalker removal (Maelstrom Pulse or Dreadbore)
IMO once you have those, you can basically do whatever you want. Probably a few more creatures to put pressure on, Thoughtseizes, and draw spells.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Since it's finally being discussed again, I'll share my Scapefit list.
I feel that the deck is not a true "combo" deck. It functions like a normal toolbox/card advantage strategy
that plays a heavy attrition game against most of the field. It happens to have a very good kill condition which
can easily be cast. Most people do not realize they're playing against a combo deck, and the element of surprise
is vital.
This has not been updated for Kaladesh or Conspiracy. Several new cards are worth considering.
I have had amazing success with it, I will humbly add.:cool:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
Tireless Tracker is amazing, and Kessig Wolf Run:eek: turns all of your creatures late game into addition win conditions like never before.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TTX
You are the best person. Thanks for sharing your list!
Why no Ruric Thar though?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganfar
Liliana, Last Hope seems to fit Junk very well. Kills all small stupid cretures.
I'm thinking about it. I'm considering picking up a copy or two for Modern anyways to throw in Jund so the opportunity cost of trying it out is pretty low for me. The positives that I see are that -2/-1 is relevant against almost every top tier deck, even when it doesn't kill something it usually alters the board state pretty significantly and it does it while ticking up. It takes 4 power on the board to actually make a dent into Liliana's loyalty. Our creature suite is also pretty strong with recursion.
The downsides that I see are that she's downgrading our removal which is already a weak point. I would never cut a creature for her, and I'm not willing to cut CA either, so that just leaves removal, most likely a Pernicious Deed slot. So the question becomes would I rather have Deed #2-3 or Liliana #1? Worth pointing out, in many matchups they're good against the same things like Elves and D&T. In a vacuum though, it's worth recognizing that she only kills creatures while Deed gets lots of things so she increases reliance on Pridemage. Of course she can also recur the Pridemage.
One thing I do like is that she's a 3 CMC walker that fights back well against Miracles. 3 is the toughest slot on the curve for them to counter, and it's a weakness I've always felt with Sorin LoI or even 6 CMC Sorin, that their best cards against us (Terminus, Jace) pull double duty as good Counterbalance fodder.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AtticusBlaqk
You are the best person. Thanks for sharing your list!
Why no Ruric Thar though?
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You can run it if you like. My philosophy is that by the time you may castGSZ for something that big, you could just win with Scapeshift. Though it is is rare, the fastest win you can possibly get is turn 3. But turn 4 and turn 5 Scapeshift is not that uncommon. Tireless Tracker is amazing because it comes down early, accelerates your game, while distracting your opponent. Ruric Thar is good against Miracles, but I will proudly say this list is much much better against Miracles than normal Nic Fit lists.
This means though your Eldrazi Stompy and Lands matchup is worse.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
For Scapeshift against Miracles I'm tempted to try a couple Boseiju in the sideboard. Then you can devote the rest of your sideboard to Lands, Infect and Eldrazi.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I don't see the point of that. Slaughter Games wrecks Miracles and you can therapy the turn you plan to Scapeshift. The manabase is super tight in this deck and can't handle a land like Boseiju
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Any news with the Starfield/enchantment lists?
Flash on rector can give very fast combo interaction (t2 nether void vs storm, humility vs sneak n show and night of souls betrayal vs elves] and even has good synergy with Veteran: eot flash in veteran and untap with lots of mana before the opposing player gets a chance to use his/her extra lands main phase. It also allows you to rector in response to deathrite activation. I'm trying to figure out if there is any other relevant use.. Any other than Rector that is. Flashing in Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty great.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pettdan
Any news with the Starfield/enchantment lists?
Flash on rector can give very fast combo interaction (t2 nether void vs storm, humility vs sneak n show and night of souls betrayal vs elves] and even has good synergy with Veteran: eot flash in veteran and untap with lots of mana before the opposing player gets a chance to use his/her extra lands main phase. It also allows you to rector in response to deathrite activation. I'm trying to figure out if there is any other relevant use.. Any other than Rector that is. Flashing in Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty great.
Maybe try it with Protean Hulk :p
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Maybe try it with Protean Hulk :p
That's pretty cool, thanks, and I guess it works with Worldspine Wurm too. Unfortunately they don't work well with much else in the deck, could add Recurring Nightmare (or just make it a Natural Order/Flash deck). I'm thinking of Eladamri's Call in place of/next to the zeniths since it helps find what Flash needs, it finds Rector too.. Not sure if it's good enough but it's an idea.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Maybe try it with Protean Hulk :p
My God...I think you've stumbled onto something!
@pettdan: Flash is banned in Legacy, my friend. Look up "Flash Hulk".
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Maybe try it with Protean Hulk :p
Allow me to translate.
Flash is banned in legacy.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Lol, thanks for the info!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Wanted to do a tournament report while it's fresh. I played at a 66 person Legacy 3K at Channel Fireball today with BUGw Nic Fit.
List
4 Baleful Strix
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Thragtusk
1 Siege Rhino
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grave Titan
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB:
3 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
R1 vs Junk.
Unfortunately paired vs my friend who drove down here with me
G1: Pernicious Deed +trackers took it for me. Killed soul tokens and jitte.
G2: Get Choked and Wastelanded out
G3: Get greedy and proceed to get triple wastelanded and choked. Feelsbadman
0-1
R2: Shardless BUG
G1: I do shardless things with deathrites and baleful strixes. Green sunned a leovold which eats a pulse. It's fine b/c I drew 4 strix to beat with.
G2: a Thoughtseize and quick clock with shardless and goyf get me good.
G3: I curve Leovold into rhino and eventually into Grave Titan. He deluges but I manage to get him with strixes again.
1-1
R3: BUG feat Standard all stars.
G1: He T1 Dark rits into Bob adn then T2 more cantrips. I kill it and eventually slam a Grave Titan gets me over the finish line.
G2: Super grindy affair where he manages to beat a grave titan and grinds me to death with Kalitas, Liliana the Last Hope, Jace VP,
G3: T1 Dark Rit Liliana last hope is fun. I needle it and cant hit my 4thland to cast my jtms and sorin LOI. He plays veil and rips my hand. GG.
1-2
R4: Painter
G1: I t1 bayou drs. He tomb, mana monkey into Moon. GG
G2: I rip his hand apart with Therapies and fetch basics and have Tireless trackers kill him.
G3: I get basics and put pressure with tracker. He pyroblasts my needle with painter on board and then enlightened tutors for grindstone. I force the grindstone and he tries to weld it back I surgical in response. I eventually sweep his board with deed and then lay down the beats with tracker and thragtusk.
2-2
R5: UR Delver Burn.
G1: Double guide Delver and burn spells wreck me.
G2: I siege rhino him and beat him to death with it and tireless tracker. Countered a burn spell but otherwise he durdled about.
G3: Thragtusk saves me from his beats and I manage to get him with the siege rhino bolt.
3-2
R6: Grixis Delver.
G1: We durdle doing nothing for a while until I turbo charge out with a vetex+Phyrexian Tower. I resolve a rhino and Delver doesnt really beat a resolved Rhino followed by a deed.
G2: I rip his hand with Therapy and Vetex and power out a rhino and thragtusk. Delver cant race those 2.
4-2
Just need to win 1 more to cash.
R7: UR Bedlam Prowess Delver
G1: Get burned out and killed with Stormchasers.
G2: T2 Rhino into T3 Deluge your swiftspear+Chasermage into deed.
G3: I get burned down to 4 before i manage to find a Thragtusk with Top and slam. I stablize behind thragtusk and sit for a few turns trying to find another threat.
5-2
Overall the deck was a blast to play and I really enjoyed it over the usual Rhinofit. I got pretty lucky not playing much combo. I would probably cut Sorin for another Rhino and maybe play another white source somewhere. Rhinos as usual were insane but with Brainstorm finding answers and JTMS to keep it going made the deck felt like it was turbocharged.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
So... Planning ahead for the upcoming addition to our SBs here - Lost Legacy. I plan to run 2 in my SB, but I'm not sure yet what to cut. My SB right now:
3 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
The RiP is there b/c there are quite a few GY based decks in my meta at the moment, so that's a nice 2 mana "I win"-button. Also does some work vs. Miracles, shutting down Snapcaster. I'm not sure if it should be a Dryad Militant though. Has pretty much the same impact if it comes down quickly enough, but does very little when it arrives at the party late. Dunno. Seems nice to turn GSZ for X = 1 into a hatebear.
At the moment I'm thinking of dropping the 2 Krosan Grips. I don't mind CounterTop as much as I do their wincons (and Terminus), when it comes to Miracles (courtesy of GSZ). Also doubles as anti-ANT/TES card, so that's a pretty big plus too. It would give me 11 cards for that particular MU.
Anybody want to chime in on this?
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[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I'd also drop the grips, miracles games are very long and they usually find one of the other 3 tops with all their cantrips /JTMS. I have not been playing grips for a long time, without regrets I might add.
I'm playing 2-3 lost legacy, and they are gonna replace abeyance in my sideboard because they kind of fulfill the same purpose against both miracles and storm.
As a side note, do you really really need TWO charms?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
As a side note, do you really really need TWO charms?
Last weekend 20% of the meta consisted of D&T (with a few usual suspects being no-shows), and there's usually 2 Elves! pilots in the room too. X-for-1s are quite valuable in those MUs. But you've peaked my curiosity. What would your Rhino Fit SB be in the following meta:
15-20% D&T (it's getting silly. If this number gets any bigger, I'm getting back on Elves!)
10-15% Eldrazi
10-15% Elves!
10% ANT/TES
10% Miracles
5-10% Sneak & Show
A bunch of anyDelver/Burn/Shardless/assorted random stuff
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[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Lots of D&T eh? Then k grip might be needed (batterskull, to a lesser extent vial - they play 4). Charm is probably the best card against elves and DT.
I only play 1 deluge because online DT is practically non existent due to Rishadan port and the lack of the new CN2 toys. Elves is rare due to miracles being the top dog.
Maybe cut 1 grip and the rip? Since lost legacy comes in against miracles and storm, you can live without rip in those matchup and play the new card instead.
Surgical and ooze and drs are a decent amount of gy hate anyways..
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I just caved and preordered a copy of the green Gearhulk (together with some other stuff I wanted from this set). A 5 mana 8/8 trample guy might just be what we need to retake ground dominance. Vs. decks that run StP, Sigarda suffices, vs. decks that don't you can GSZ for the Gearhulk. As a clock it's easily a full turn quicker than Sigarda. If it sucks I can always hope it's a good Standard bomb and trade it away for some quick profit.
Sucks that I have to give up Big Sorin to accomodate it, but that're the choices you make. Perhaps in the end Gearhulk becomes a 4 mana combat walker, I don't know.
I also caved in as far as Tops go - I finally got 3 this weekend (fuck me).
I'm trying to give my list some much needed speed.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I just caved and preordered a copy of the green Gearhulk (together with some other stuff I wanted from this set). A 5 mana 8/8 trample guy might just be what we need to retake ground dominance. Vs. decks that run StP, Sigarda suffices, vs. decks that don't you can GSZ for the Gearhulk. As a clock it's easily a full turn quicker than Sigarda. If it sucks I can always hope it's a good Standard bomb and trade it away for some quick profit.
Sucks that I have to give up Big Sorin to accomodate it, but that're the choices you make. Perhaps in the end Gearhulk becomes a 4 mana combat walker, I don't know.
I also caved in as far as Tops go - I finally got 3 this weekend (fuck me).
I'm trying to give my list some much needed speed.
The Tops are so key to trying to compete with brainstorm decks! Do you run a Courser of Kruphix?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Courser with Tracker and Top is disgusting
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I just caved and preordered a copy of the green Gearhulk (together with some other stuff I wanted from this set). A 5 mana 8/8 trample guy might just be what we need to retake ground dominance.
I'm not a fan of the Gearhulk, it's pretty similar to Wolfir Silverheart, but weaker I would argue and that already doesn't make the cut.
Quote:
I also caved in as far as Tops go - I finally got 3 this weekend (fuck me).
I'm trying to give my list some much needed speed.
I'm convinced this is the best SDT deck in the format, we use the card better than Miracles does and that's really saying something. That leads into my thinking on including Monastery Mentor. We've got the mana for the combo, and we've got the Tops. Only makes sense that it be worth trying. Sadly, I've gotten in very few test games with it because my local legacy scene died last semester and most of them didn't return this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TTX
Courser with Tracker and Top is disgusting
Top/Bob
Top/Courser
Top/Tracker
Top/Mentor
All are good synergies. I play them all, Top is really the focal point of my build I've found.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AtticusBlaqk
The Tops are so key to trying to compete with brainstorm decks! Do you run a Courser of Kruphix?
Yes, I do! Have been doing so a long time, as faux Top on legs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TTX
Courser with Tracker and Top is disgusting
Yes, it is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I'm not a fan of the Gearhulk, it's pretty similar to Wolfir Silverheart, but weaker I would argue and that already doesn't make the cut.
I'm convinced this is the best SDT deck in the format, we use the card better than Miracles does and that's really saying something. That leads into my thinking on including Monastery Mentor. We've got the mana for the combo, and we've got the Tops. Only makes sense that it be worth trying. Sadly, I've gotten in very few test games with it because my local legacy scene died last semester and most of them didn't return this year.
Meh, Wolfir needs another creature on the field and doesn't have trample (which is exactly what makes the Gearhulk good clock).
We've not only got the mana, we probably run the highest number of shuffle effects of any deck out there too. Looking at my own 60 I've got 10 fetch, 4 GSZ, 4 Veteran Explorer and a Diabolic Intent. That's 19 cards that let you shuffle your deck. That's just crazy (and why I wanted to get those Tops in the first place)!
You know what, here's my 60 at this moment:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage (I don't run AD but did want something that allows me to blow up non-creatures to compensate for that)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (The only real flex slot in the deck at this moment)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent (I just love this card too much to drop it)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
Perhaps I should just drop Sorin for another Tracker and call it a day. I don't know.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I consider new Sorin as an awesome card. But I think it's place is in the sb because he is only good against miracles and shardless and other slow decks. It is a meh 6 mana card if it's going to sit in front of creatures, I would never play him in a world full of delvers. Big elspeth at least protect herself against an entire board
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Vs. Delver, it usually turns into a 2/3-for-1. It isn't bad, but we can probably do better. For that much mana you just want to dominate the game from that point on. Perhaps a throwback to Dragonlord Dromoka..? It's a very good clock that allows you to negate most other clocks.
This is why I keep going back and forth on that slot, lol.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Lets try going back to this topic from the other day, here's my current list, I'm thinking about 1
Liliana, the Last Hope over 1 Pernicious Deed, thoughts? My argument is that I give up some broad removal for some removal that's also board presence. Liliana has targets against almost everyone, but is also able to beat Miracles which is pretty nice from a 3 drop since that's the slot they have the most difficulty interacting with.
List
Well... Your manabase is greedy as hell. You're not hitting the mark for the T1 Cabal Therapy.
I get the alure of Ranger of Eos, but if you mostly want to fetch Endless One with it, wouldn't it be more efficient to just run an extra Endless One?
And Safekeeper - is it there specifically to protect Confidant? Seems like a bit of a wasted slot. If it's there just b/c you can tutor for it w/ Ranger of Eos, I'm not sure if it should be there either.
I also feel like you'd really want another sweeper in there - you have enough spotremoval as it is. Cutting another Deed for Liliana seems unwise, as Deed is one of the things that allows us to either pull ahead of or get back on par with our opponent in one big boom.
Don't get me wrong, it's a cool build and looks like it'd run smooth as hell (thanks to all the CA engines), but some decisions just seem a bit iffy. Mostly your manabase, Ranger and Safekeeper. Pernicious Deed is probably very meta dependant (as you saw, my meta is infested w/ D&T, making it an ideal card).
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Well... Your manabase is greedy as hell. You're not hitting the mark for the T1 Cabal Therapy.
Is it? There's 13 sources of Black for Therapy. 8 fetches, 2 basics, 3 duals. The non typical piece is a Cavern of Souls over a 9th fetch, which is similar in quality. But when I did that I would also run a 3 Forest/2 Plains/1 Swamp basic setup, so it would again be 13 Black.
Quote:
I get the alure of Ranger of Eos, but if you mostly want to fetch Endless One with it, wouldn't it be more efficient to just run an extra Endless One?
I started off with it as Stoneforge Mystic (and more Stoneforges for that matter). Over time I kept finding myself cutting the package to be smaller and smaller. Eventually I was down to 2 Mystics 1 Equipment I think (or maybe those numbers were reversed). Then I realized Ranger is basically the same thing as a non tutorable source of advantage that drops numbers onto the field. Fetching Endless One is nice (I've also considered Hangarback in the slot), but not the only thing to do. Ranger is a 3 for 1 at a good rate, and has a lot of good fetches. If you've got Trackers/Coursers down then Vet gets more attractive to fetch, Ranger into double DRS is always a great play (and is the line that made Pod a T1 deck in Modern back in the day), Safekeeper protects your board and Endless One is just big.
Endless One fills a few roles, besides being a tutor target it's a way to sneak a big body in the list without having a liability with Bob.
Also, you would be surprised how hard it is to beat Endless One+Safekeeper. It typically ends up around a 7/7 with a way to protect it. Just as hard to remove as Sigarda, and just as big.
Quote:
And Safekeeper - is it there specifically to protect Confidant? Seems like a bit of a wasted slot. If it's there just b/c you can tutor for it w/ Ranger of Eos, I'm not sure if it should be there either.
It's to protect anything. Tutoring with Ranger is secondary, it's a way to use a GSZ to turn off your opponents removal spells, for example against Miracles it takes away STP. You ever Teeg+Safekeeper against Miracles? 4 tutors for 1, 5 for the other. That combo locks them out of the game completely minus their one Council's Judgment.
You can get into some mean Dryad Arbor loops with Safekeeper and Meren or Volraths too. Even Eternal Witness is back breaking in that scenario. Speaking of Eternal Witness, there's one in the deck I was writing it from memory and got it wrong, I think it's -1 Rhino for it.
Quote:
I also feel like you'd really want another sweeper in there - you have enough spotremoval as it is. Cutting another Deed for Liliana seems unwise, as Deed is one of the things that allows us to either pull ahead of or get back on par with our opponent in one big boom.
This is an argument against Liliana. Sweepers are good. But at the same time, with enough spot removal, you don't need a sweeper in the first place.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Is it? There's 13 sources of Black for Therapy. 8 fetches, 2 basics, 3 duals.
Golden standard is @14 :wink:.
Ranger being a 3-for-1 is true, but apart from Endless One most of the things it gets (and Ranger itself) are fairly low impact. At 4 mana you could also just run a Siege Rhino (or something else. Archdemon of Paliano perhaps?) and turn the board around from there rather than a 3/2 and some 1 mana guys the next turn.
I guess I tend to play a bit more aggressive than you do :tongue:.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Golden standard is @14 :wink:.
I've never had a problem at 13 untapped T1 sources, that's an 83.1% chance of getting my colors in a 61 card deck. I'm pretty comfortable with anything over 80% really. 14 is 85.1%. To me, T1 Therapy in 2% more of my games isn't worth the added utility I'm bringing in, but I don't play against combo much.
The biggest difference is in the number of basic Swamps, because I lose one with this setup. I only have 6 ways to have a basic Swamp on T1 vs the 7 you have. Forest is where you feel it more though, I give up one of those too at 10 vs 11 sources. Cavern is worth it however. Phyrexian Tower is probably the land that least pulls it's weight in my build.
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Ranger being a 3-for-1 is true, but apart from Endless One most of the things it gets (and Ranger itself) are fairly low impact. At 4 mana you could also just run a Siege Rhino (or something else.
Archdemon of Paliano perhaps?) and turn the board around from there rather than a 3/2 and some 1 mana guys the next turn.
I guess I tend to play a bit more aggressive than you do :tongue:.
Caught me on a ninja edit of my post, I explained in a bit more detail. I disagree on it being low impact. Safekeeper/Endless One combo is at minimum as high an impact as Sigarda and situationally like against Shardless with some Strix's, double DRS can be even higher than that.
Don't knock the aggressiveness of the build either, I have a lower than normal mana curve which leads to faster starts. There's a lot of ways to spend excess mana, but the base rate is pretty cheap.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
Brael
The biggest difference is in the number of basic Swamps, because I lose one with this setup. I only have 6 ways to have a basic Swamp on T1 vs the 7 you have.
6 black fetch + 2 basic Swamp equals 8 :wink:. Same goes for Plains. 8 green fetch + 2 basic Forest means 10 cards that can get me a basic Forest on T1, we're on equal ground there.
Edit: Read your ninja bits. You make valid points. Safekeeper + Teeg is hard to pull off though - the fact that it's possible doesn't mean you can really rely on it. Lots of things that can go wrong.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
Echelon
Edit: Read your ninja bits. You make valid points. Safekeeper + Teeg is hard to pull off though - the fact that it's possible doesn't mean you can really rely on it. Lots of things that can go wrong.
You can't rely on it, but it's a plan in addition to everything else. Eventually something comes together against them. If you get one piece it's pretty trivial to assemble the other though you can't Cavern both of them.
Safekeeper is just a strong card, it's one of those cards where it seems like people in this thread always want to build with it, but can never find a slot. I found the slot by making the connection between Ranger and SFM. From there, the equipment slots easily converted into a couple more low drops. It's rather powerful, I've even found myself GSZ'ing for a Safekeeper every now and then. It's a good way to protect a big Tracker for example.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
Navsi
It isn't worth going that hard on the combo. Problem is that no matter what you attempt, you're never going to be as far as other combo decks in the room, and every deck is going to have disruption for you because Wasteland is a very commonly played disruption piece. The list will also have a ton of trouble against counterspells since you can't apply pressure much other than by trying to combo. Trying to speed up the gameplan at the exclusion of your control / midrange ability isn't really worth it.
I'd say the 'core' Scapeshift tools you definitely want access to are:
- Maindeck:
10-12 Mountains, 2 Valakuts
Scapeshifts
Veterans
Therapy
Burning Wish
Zeniths
Tops
Deeds
Zenithable immediate ramp (STE)
Eternal Witness
Abrupt Decays
Lifegain creature (Huntmaster or Thragtusk)
- Sideboard:
Scapeshift
Sweeper
Slaughter Games
Pithing Needles
Extraction effect (more Slaughter Games or Surgical or both)
Innocent Blood
Planeswalker removal (Maelstrom Pulse or Dreadbore)
IMO once you have those, you can basically do whatever you want. Probably a few more creatures to put pressure on, Thoughtseizes, and draw spells.
I really appreciate the tips. I haven't had a chance to revisit my list since last Wednesday.
When does the innocent blood come in?
Is there a reason that lists seem to add the 1st Blood Crypt before the 1st Stomping Ground (even when playing 1-2 Wood Elves)?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Innocent Blood never comes in. It's a Burning Wish target. I prefer 1 Stomping Ground 4 Taiga that way green is really likely. I don't think Wood Elves is worth it. Play 1 Tribe Elder and Trackers instead
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Brael: This just hit me - wouldn't the new Recruiter guy be a better fit than Ranger of Eos. Yes, it's just a 2-for-1, but besides all of the Ranger's targets, it can also get you Confidant/Tireless Tracker/QPM/ScOoze.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
Echelon
@Brael: This just hit me - wouldn't the new Recruiter guy be a better fit than Ranger of Eos. Yes, it's just a 2-for-1, but besides all of the Ranger's targets, it can also get you Confidant/Tireless Tracker/QPM/ScOoze.
Recruiter of the Guard also gets Teeg and is 1 mana less...
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
MDHackbert
Thank you for piling on.
Memo to self: Coffee first, MtG later.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
AtticusBlaqk
I really appreciate the tips. I haven't had a chance to revisit my list since last Wednesday.
When does the innocent blood come in?
Is there a reason that lists seem to add the 1st Blood Crypt before the 1st Stomping Ground (even when playing 1-2 Wood Elves)?
Innocent Blood, Scapeshift, the sweeper (usually Massacre and/or Pyroclasm), and one Slaughter Games stay in the sideboard to be Wished for.
I play Blood Crypt as Mountain #11 rather than Stomping Ground because I usually run 1 Swamp and 2-3 Forests, so my black mana count is on the low side. You could go -1 Blood Crypt -1 Forest +1 Swamp +1 Stomping Ground, but I prefer the extra basic Forest (for Nissa Vastwood Seer). If you run any double-black cards, like Lilianas, you definitely want the second Swamp.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Originally Posted by
Navsi
Innocent Blood, Scapeshift, the sweeper (usually Massacre and/or Pyroclasm), and one Slaughter Games stay in the sideboard to be Wished for.
I play Blood Crypt as Mountain #11 rather than Stomping Ground because I usually run 1 Swamp and 2-3 Forests, so my black mana count is on the low side. You could go -1 Blood Crypt -1 Forest +1 Swamp +1 Stomping Ground, but I prefer the extra basic Forest (for Nissa Vastwood Seer). If you run any double-black cards, like Lilianas, you definitely want the second Swamp.
I'm sorry, I mean to ask in what MU / scenarios would you wish for innocent blood.
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