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A millions discard effects doesn't beat snapcaster+stifle/flusterstorm. And control players have learned to leave removal in vs storm. Even without representing that you might hve swarm post board they know bolt means less cards off of ad nausium and swordsing there own goyf/kotr can be a game deciding play. This puts chants at an all time premium rite now.
I agree, but I would rather play chant in TES than run a Ubrw ad nauseam list. The unstable mana base would be rather atrocious. The only Ubw ad nauseam list I would consider running is one with top and LDV. I also believe that since there's a resurgence of stifle in most of the tempo decks; Orim's Chant would benefit an ant player more than seize/duress and past in flames, but this point has already been discussed to death in this thread. If tempo decks started to decline and maverick and other decks with permanent based hate start to be played more than Ubr would be the obvious choice for an AnT list.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalhead
I agree other than about LDV. That card blows in ANT (and just about everything else but shelldrazi)Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
It blows now because of snares all over the damn place. It was actually quite good if you ran a couple with tops before tempo blew up everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
I may be wrong here but If I am playing tops in storm shouldn't my tutor of choice be doomsday?Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
Only if you're playing a set of tops. Most ad nauseam builds running LDV and top run 2 tops.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
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Originally Posted by j_rb
Okay besides the one versus two tops you would play or that "most" LDV builds play; What exactly about LDV makes it good? Or more to the point what makes it better than doomsday for finding 5 cards or grim tutor for finding one card? We are not playing force of will so the fact that its blue only makes it worse because of reb and pyroblast. The fact that it costs two makes it worse against spell snare and counterbalance. And it is unlikely that it will cost less life than grim tutor, it will have less effect than doomsday.
With that said I am unsure why I should consider LDV in my Ant list, UBw or otherwise?
You shouldn't because it's terrible now. I clarified this in a post above when I said "It blows..." Snare hits it, reb hits it, and it gets hit by pierce/balance pretty easy, even though the latter is nearly non-existent. Ldv was a decent choice for a tutor before delver decks blew up, and to be honest it was really powerful but no one played it and dismissed it as garbage even though there was solid tournament results showing it was viable. I was just stating a point and was not suggesting running LDV, I was just stating that I use it from time to time in my local meta when testing numerous amount of storm builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
But the point is, don't use LDV now because it isn't viable to play now with so much delver/stoneblade running around (even though a savvy player can play around snare).
Lets be real here, counterbalance isn't a good deck anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
I never had a feeling Chant solves anything except the - SDT and Snapcaster-SS/Stifle interaction... well you can still beat it but that's rare..
if the Fow/Spellpierce you, do you pass/pay? I prefer to have information and go off when I know I can win, I prefer mtg to poker..
I recently realized i can beat 2xFow 3xDaze 2xSS hand in one turn with 2 discards the same as I would with 2 chants (well likely not), except I would likely lack the WW most time...
Past in flames - plain power of this card make Chant in ANT no option... I mean, should the deck be still called ANT if you kill through Past in flames 4/5 of the time?
I play a bit modified GP UBrg list and I don't think UW is unfavorable I only lost due to my misplays in tournaments, Canadian thresh is around 50/50 while they know what you're playing (based on 50+ games)... no experience with URG tempo thou, since nobody plays/tests it around here =/
LDV - although i really like the card I have little experience with it in old UB list.. I'm a bit tempted to give it a try instead of 2 preordains now
Playing PiF makes your delver MU easy as pie. Actually, it makes most blue Mu's easy as long as you get some decent disruption. Running PiF or chant is all play-style dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Most the time you can wait for a tap out for a clique and just wreck em on your turn.
PiF is so powerful against blue that I wouldn't recommend playing without it. It allows you to just be awesome. The mini tendrils play is amazing if you draw the tendrils and/or PiF. It just lets you win against control. I've also been in situations where I would just use PiF for flashing back discard and cantrips. It's just soo good.
I prefer a mix of discard and chants. With this you can easily just win. Also, most players let a chant resolve on their turn so you can abuse this the best with ant, going rit rit adn, since ant runs 8 instant cast rits compared to TES. Most the time with chant you duress then chant the next turn and if they pierce you typically pay it only if you have enough lands to cast a ritual and another ritual in response to another pierce in case they have one, otherwise you just pass and chant again next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
LDV is good in old ant list with tops. You usually play 2 top and 2 LDV. I played 2 top 3 LDV in my old list before delver decks got huge here in the Americas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I wouldn't recommend running it just because snare wrecks it. You can always play around it but there will be certain situations where you need to LDV and they just snare it and win.
LDV with chant works because if you have extra chants you can chant then LDV.
LDV is very powerful when it works and top lets you sculpt perfect hands. I liked the version of ANT with it. It was very powerful the times it was working. Basically if you want to run LDV, you just cut 4 preordain for 2 LDV and 2 Top. I still wouldn't recommend it if your meta is filled with control, as a timely snare can just make you lose. To cut to the chase, when it works it's a 2 mana vamp tutor.
J_rb - do you have a decklist?
Yea, but I would not recommend playing this unless you can really play around snare. It's not hard but it takes some patience. These list are solid against mixed metas. I stopped playing them because I opted to the 7 chant Doomsday fetch tendrils builds because they wreck control, which my meta is filled with.Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_limoges
The chant list is obviously good if theres rampant control in your area because you can go upkeep chant eot LDV ad nause or just ad naus.
4 duress
1 ill gotten gains
4 infernal tutor
3 ponder
1 Tendrils
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ad nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 lotus petal
2 sensei top
1 crystal vein
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 delta
2 misty rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
sb
3 dark confidant
2 echoing truth
1 thoughtseize
1 hurkyls recall
1 rebuild
1 kgrip
1 slaughter pact
1 chain of vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm
green splash for swarms. The extra chrome is because I prefer speed and you can ad nauseam with no mana floating more successfully.
4 duress
1 ill gotten gains
4 infernal tutor
3 ponder
1 Tendrils
3 Orim's chant
1 Ad nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 lotus petal
2 sensei top
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 delta
1 Swamp
1 tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 scrubland
sb
3 dark confidant
1 Ad nauseam
2 echoing truth
1 Orim's chant
1 hurkyls recall
1 rebuild
1 kgrip
1 slaughter pact
1 chain of vapor
1 Tendrils of agony
2 surgical extraction
Heres my list with white for chant. I use surgical for obvious gy hate. Mainly against reanimator. It also can shuffle if you need a shuffle effect, which I have done numerous times.
I'll be honest the Ubg version is probably the better version, but I enjoy playing chants as my meta is filled with control.
general question for G splash - Main/side? Trop or Bayou?
I really dislike G land main since you're telegraphing Xantid swarm miles away
Trop seems like an obvious choice, but in numerous situations i wished it'd be Bayou and lost due to it (T1 swarm - T2 kill, or more likely - T1 island+cantrip, T2 fetch-> swarm but with no black for the kill next few turns), in fact it is a protection so natural would be B land
...the problem is reconfiguration of fetches as ability to go T1-> island is vital, but I'm playing both Volcanic and Badlands (which is 100% worth it) and going Misty Rainforest>Scalding tarn makes the MB weaker =/
which Configuration would be your choice?
for reference my recent decklist (61 cards) I 100% like except the Trop problem:
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
j_rb - Crystal Vein - is that 2. situational mana worth it?
btw. would Dread of Night (most likely a SB 4of) be really weird in strong monoW & Maverick meta?
I think virtues ruin is the better choice over dread of night.
The crystal vein reasoning is going to include comments about sensei's and chrome mox.
As for your deck slosh, Have you considered an Empty the Warrens Main? I think I would try -2 preordain +1 Empty, and being a 60 card deck?
I could also see -2 Grim +2 burning, and adding a single grim SB. Once you are running red maindeck, I think it should be considered for burning wish and empty the warrens, these are cards that can offer outs to other random main deck cards.
If you're going to splash for a color (Green), then I would suggest taking up five to six sideboard slots with two of those slots being land. It seems excessive, but its probably necessary considering the two top blue decks are running a minimum of three Wasteland. If you're looking at Green for Xantid Swarm, why not just splash White for maindeck or sideboard Chant effects? The old argument about splashing Green was that it gave you access to Krosan Grip to solve Counterbalance. However, Counterbalance has fallen out of favor taking away the secondary reason to play Green.
The best method to beat these decks will likely depend on what is in your metagame. If it is RUG heavy, then Chant seems like your best out. If its UWx Stoneblade, you could get away with UB with Dark Confidant and additional discard from the sideboard; the benefit being you don't risk color screw and you maintain your ability to play around Wasteland. I think Chant is probably the stronger splash between the UB, UBw, or UBg simply because Confidant is terrible against RUG because they almost always have burn in post board.
If you're going to play chant, something to consider is the presences of Leyline of Sanctity. If that card is prevalent in your area, play Silence over Chant (Chant targets, Silence does not). The ability to blank attacks is probably not that relevant since most of the aggro decks are slower than they use to be and you usually have until turn four before they kill you. Most aggro players will tend to mulligan into hate cards because they believe your deck capable of killing them on turn one; the reality is that unless you're playing Blecher, the odds of a turn one kill are fairly low.
Dread of Night serves an important function in guaranteeing that you don't lose to Aven Mindcensor while keeping the Teegs and Canonists able to be hit with other removal (killing Mother of Runes). This is fine in Doomsday where you are fine with them having Teeg or Canonist, but cannot beat Mindcensor. ANT isn't really fine with either of them, and is generally better served by Virtue's Ruin/Infest effects.
I prefer the trop on the board but if I'm running out of board space I'll put it maindeck. Most of the time it can be avoided in g1 that they have no idea you are playing swarm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I also like trop as I don't need to fix the mana base for bayou. Turn 1 island cantrip into turn 2 trop swarm usually works as you will have a 3rd land or a lotus petal for the black source.
Yea, it is kind of mandatory (Not technically mandatory but it's amazing) playing with tops. You can use either vein or City of Traitors, which I dislike city, as you need another land to kill it for thresh in certain games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
If you suspect mindbreak trap dark rit, vein into ad nauseam is kinda sweet.
That is also why I run 3 chrome moxes. So the dark rit vein ad nauseam turn 2 is a more consistent win.
Yea in maverick filled meta's it could be. It's definitely less of hassle than trying to play around mom protected teegs, cannonist and mindcensors. Sudden shock is tech as fuck against maverick/teeg/mindcensor too if you are playing red.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
You definitely want them as a 4 of if you are running them. As 1 and any other bounce/kill wins against maverick.
I could see this. Hell, I could see running 4 burning wish(-2 preordain -2 grim for 4 Burning Wish with empty and grim tutor in board). Burning wish with a wish board would be sick and grim would be a sick tutor target. This also makes the deck more versatile. I've found many games with ant that burning wish is fantastic as I can imprint tendrils on chrome without having to worry about not having a win con. Empty is so powerful against pox/tempo decks, you probably want 1 main or 4 Burning Wish for easy access to early empties. I got so many auto wins against pox at the last scg I played in due to empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
P.S. Burning Wish is goooood. Versatility is key here.
-Goblins main is something I can imagine to have use for but I don't have feeling I actually need them and Ad Nauseam into 2x Grim, Flames, Tendrils and Warrens on the top seems pretty risky... 61 card deck is simple personal preference 61st card being additional land
-Chant is no option for me due to PiF and Swarm is some sort of Chant effect
-Actually Burning Wish is the reason why i switched to Grim Tutors, although I like the versatility its slower, shrinks sideboard and most of all is clumsy with Past in Flames
4Burning wish and Wishing for Grim in chain is a bit wild at least with mana IMO, I would play that in TnT with Rite of Flame
The 61st card is always worse than the 60th card. When going for efficiency, adding another card is just decreasing consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
There was an old argument about people playing 41 cards in Limited instead of 40. The argument went something like "if the game goes long, I won't get decked" or some nonsense like that. The bottom line is, if you play 41 cards, your deck is not as good as it could be, or you're not strong enough of a player to make the final cut.
I feel the same way in Constructed. Certainly when playing Combo.