but without Counters (without dazes, FoW and pierce you only have snare) you can do nothing vs lili. That is the problem.
Printable View
but without Counters (without dazes, FoW and pierce you only have snare) you can do nothing vs lili. That is the problem.
Here is why your removal needs to be instant speed.
Your opponent is on the play and drops deathrite shaman.
You play volcanic island and say go: This is what should be on your opponents mind assuming he is good.
1. I can't fetch because he has stifle open
2. I can't play liliana because he will daze it (and then bolt the deathrite)
3. I can't play confidant or goyf because he will spell snare those
Lets assume you chain lightninged the deathrite. Now he has a much greater span of options to chose from without the risk of running into your reactive cards beyond daze. The result is that you end up in awkward situations where you can't match your dazes and snares to their threaths and end up having to force stuff. This btw is also a common play against maverick in which bolting the t1 hierarch in your own turn otd is usually not the right play
The power of canadian threshold lies in its ability to force your opponent to run into your "soft" reactive cards by operating more efficiently (cramming more options and actions into the same turns) then your opponent. By running unnecessary sorceries you diminish that. When deathrite shaman forces more interaction into t1-t2 it becomes even more important to play instant speed removal
Wanting to play grove of the burnwillows and 4 tarmogoyfs is a product of playing the deck wrongly. Grove will loose you tons of games because it doesnt make blue mana, and tarmogoyf is not the best card in the mirror (if both players play stifle). I have noticed several good european canadian thresh players force mongoose on sight in the mirror whereas tarmogoyfs rarely get to resolve without a significant ammount of maneuvring. This of course changes when players don't run stifle or don't know how to play with and around it.
Stifle is good against good players because they play around it. Stifle is good against bad players because they run into it. It serves different roles but is good in both scenarios.
So what instant removals would you run beside the lightning bolts, dismember and the submerges postboard? shock or fire // ice instead of the forked bolts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
or perhaps Izzet Charm I think.
No more advice on my boarding question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Hello Sasan,
I've played this deck for multiple years through the different versions and transformations it has gone through. Here are my quick thoughts about the deck. I will address piece by piece of the deck, then go through the general discussion with boarding and the matchup against Jund in which is what you asked about.
The land count is correct with 7 fetches you are using at the moment. I have gone back from 6-7 fetches, I would suggest just testing the number out and what works best for yourself. There are sometimes where I wanted the dual land in my hand, being either an volcanic or tropical island. In reference to your main deck I would make the following changes if I picked up the deck and played it in a big tournament tomorrow. I would cut 1 Izzet Charm, 1 Force of Will, 1 Nimble Mongoose, 2 Forked Bolt, 3 Spell Snare. I would add 1 Tarmogoyf, 2 Grim Lavamancers, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Dismember, 2 Chain Lightning.
I think forked bolt is a good alternative to chain lightning depending on the metagame you are expecting to see, so please always consider the type of decks you might be playing against in your area of competition. If you play 3 Force of Wills in the main deck, I would add the 4th in the sideboard just so you have access to it for aggressive combo decks. I would personally like to see another red blast of some sort in the sideboard, but thats my persoanl perference.
The Jund Matchup:
Their strategy is to destroy your hand as quickly as possible with the vast amount of discard and card advantage they can generate through dark confidant. You definitely want to side out the Force of Wills since they are a huge card disadvantage in this particular matchup. I would add in additional 1 mana counter options you have in the board and do not cut dazes or spell pierces at all from the deck since they are a hugh counter in the early game. The counters give you a huge tempo advantage, especially if they don't play correctly against you. I would cut Tarmogoyfs after game 1 in this matchup if you go with my list, since you had delver, goose, and lavamancer there to win the game, still very solid and changes are is that they have answers to goyf.
This is a very rough matchup to say the least, but getting a creature early game and protecting it is the best offense against this type of deck. Nimble Mongoose/Delver is MVP in this matchup b/c they can apply quick pressure, especially if they can't get an early threat to stick on the board.
If you want to go over specific situations with the matchup, I can go through my thought process and see if you agree with it or not.
Thanks,
~Shriek~
Hi Shriek,Quote:
Originally Posted by Shriekmaw
May I know the reason for cutting 1 Nimble Mongoose? Is it a meta call which you don't expect to see any Stoneblade decks? I also tried to run 1 Grim Lavamancer MD with 2 in the sizeboard, but then I found that I can't fuel my yard quick enough to activate my Lavamancers. Do you have any comment on that?
Thanks!
Yonthan
hey Shriek,
thanks for the reall great advices.
May I ask some questions?
Why should we board out Goyf vs Jund? It is still our best beater. In your list you have 3 Mongoose and 4 Delver to make the job but Delvers will die to their 12 removal spells quickly. Mongooses have a bit anti synergie with Lavamancers. So at least we need the Goyfs. What do you think about adding only one Grim to the MD and cutting the goyf count to two and add one Green Suns Zenith for Mongoose number 5? That should help a bit more or?
Furthermore I think Spell Snare is really good now. It can counter opposing goyfs which is huge vs Jund.
After long considerations I am also in the "no sorcery removal" camp - Goddik convinced me.
So I thought two Izzet Charms and one Dismember as removals 5-7 should do a great job besides one Grim in the MD.
Creature base is 4 Delvers, 2 Goyfs, 1 GSZ, 4 Mongoose, 1 Grim.
My sideboarding plan would be:
OTP:
- 4 FoW - 1 Spell Pierce - 1 Daze + 3 Submerge + 1 Divert + 2 Rough/Tumble
OTD:
-4 Fow - 4 Daze + 3 Submerge + 1 Divert + 2 Rough/Tumble + 2 Spell Pierces
I cutted one Divert in the SB as I have one Grim MD as Jund hate and I am lacking space.
What do you think about this boarding?
Let me address your question on why I would cut Tarmogoyf in the Jund matchup. I agree that in theory it's your best creature and I wouldn't argue that point but think about how much easier it is to protect a 1 mana creature rather than a 2 mana creature the turn you drop it. A lot of games you badically only have 2 or 3 lands that produce color mana so sometimes you mana resources are tight. I always prefer to cut burn spells for additional counter in this matchup minus lightning bolt, I would never cut that.
You need to apply early pressure and protect your threats. The spell snare argument is a metagame call, so if it's really good for you then play it. I just prefer spell pierce main ATM, but def pierce in the board if it's not main. You need access to a full set of them after game 1 in some matchups.
One way to help fuel mongoose and Lavamancer is to add a copy or two of thought scour.
I think your boarding strategy is pretty solid to me. The trickiest thing on this matchup is what do I side out. I would be interested in some tournaments you play in down the road with a metagame breakdown.
As always I wish you the best of luck and I do love this deck still since it applies so much early pressure and has a solid game plan against most of the field.
I apologize if there is spelling/grammar issues, responding to this post on my iPhone.
Take Care,
I have a question for all Canadian experts:
With the rise of BUG and Jund, what do you think about a unblockable, decay Safe creature that can Chump Block forever?
Let me introduce you to Mire Boa. Swamp Walk makes Mire Boa always two damage, so it is a living one-sided sulfuric vortex vs BUG and Jund. It only deals one less damage than our all star in these matchups mongoose.
The big thing is the regeneration ability for only one G. So it can always be safed from decay and it can block all fatties in the format expect for Tombstalker and will not die.
If you ask me, a solid two off in the sideboard that can be sided in versus those matchups of you have the space.
What do you think?
I actually considered River Boa in my SB for Denver for the same reason, though I completely forgot about Mire Boa. I never had the chance to test it, but Mire Boa does seem miles better because decks with Swamp are probably relying on Abrupt Decay as their main source of removal. The only issue I think is that the 1 fewer power than Mongoose or Delver is actually pretty huge. 2 power isn't very threatening.
A friend also tested Troll Ascetic and had very good results with it. Once it hits the board, the game is in our favor. I always found it too costy versus BUG as they can counter it and we cannot protect it in this case. But versus Jund the Troll seems castable, especially if you play with 4 Tropical Islands and sometimes use Wasteland for the casting cost. And Troll instant wins versus Esper Blade.
But at the moment I consider Mire Boa as 2 damage a turn is huge if it is guaranteed damage. Without it it would be underwhelming.
And another proposal: Aspect of Mongoose. The card is decay safe and reusable. A Delver or a Goyf with Mongoose abilities? Good deal.
Aspect of Mongoose isn't safe to discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
You are right, I edited that part out yesterday as I did not read the wording careful enough. But it was not edited. Strange.
Other than that, no more feedback to Mire Boa? ;)
Let me think of a way how esperblade could beat a 3/2 hexproof. Lingering Souls + Jitte or Batterskull to race it, Engineered Explosives, Terminus or Supreme Verdict to kill it. Also Elspeth or less common Edict effect match up well against the troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
That is fair enough but played wisely the Troll makes a lot of trouble to the blade player. Especially if you have a Mongoose in hand in case Terminus etc comes.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
But that was not the point of my post, I wanted to discuss the Boa :)
As tech vs. Abrupt Decay.dec? I think it's decent from the board. As a maindeck inclusion? It's competing for many slots. I would also state that 2/1 with not much else isn't exactly exciting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
It's all the same core, with your choice of toppings (maybe BUG's got some differences): Jund for Burn and BBE, Junk for Knight/Souls/STP, BUG/TA for Brainstorm, counters and Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
The issue with divert is it's application mid-to-late game--though I suppose once you're there, you're as good as dead anyway. Plaxmanta is well and good, but these BGx decks also pack wasteland, making it difficult to keep that mana open.
Personally, I like Autumn's Veil, despite it not FoW-pitchable.
the boa would be a two-off in the sideboard besides the main deck creatures.
I think it is really nice and unexpected.
Divert is not always there when you need it.
Plaxmanta needs two open mana every turn. Too much for Canadian.