wow sounds really interesting, congrats on your performance, looking forward to the list!
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wow sounds really interesting, congrats on your performance, looking forward to the list!
It was actually really good when it came up. The list is a little unconventional, and forgoes a bit of raw speed by eschewing cards like Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough and focuses more on substance and resiliency with those cards (like Tortured Existence and Street Wraith). My list ran Ancestor's Chosen to get far enough ahead with my life total to the point where Street Wraith's activation cost was never a concern.
Also just to point out in a match against U/w/splash-Black Stoneblade, that Tortured Existence play came off the top of my deck (where I had naturally drawn the T.E.) and I had a dredger in hand (Stinkweed Imp) and pitched it to Existence to bring back Chewer - which destroyed the Cage and made two Zombies in the process. I was able to grind out the win shortly thereafter.
Actually, Tortured Existence + Street Wraith sounds like an insane engine, not to mention all the insane resilience you get. Definitely interested!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Yeah, it seems to be a great synergy, but, at the same time, changing the engine around Tortured Existence seems to take alot of consistensy from the deck wich is the factor that makes it much better than the random lists. Obviously, I'm half talking out of my ass because I never played with it, but it looks more of a fun engine tho. The little changes between every dredge list are based somewhat on the meta, but this looks very inovative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
Finally you brought back that list, Hollywood. I asked for it a few pages ago, but you might have not seen the post.
You've been brewing it Bloodghast + Undiscovered Paradise? (for maximum mana recursion, with T.E in play?)
I'd like to hear the progress of that list, because Tortured Existence is TEH SHIT in a Pauper deck called Dead Dog, which I have a little crush with.
Okay. So, I was sitting around last Wednesday before the tournament and decided just to throw caution to wind and run a completely ambiguous build of Dredge running Tortured Existence. The deck was built basically to act kind of like a pseudo-Survival deck where dredged creatures basically are your toolbox when you need them. I kept thinking of the card as it was in the back of my mind the last few months. With all of the different kinds of graveyard hate current out there, I really think Tortured Existence bears some weight in the archetype simply because it is built to protect your creatures in your graveyard and additionally used to plow through your deck by abusing Street Wraith.
Now, I would like to point out that I typically run a fully-pimped, fully-powered (LED's, etc.) Dredge deck, but I thought for once maybe returning to the more unorthodox roots of deck-building I've missed might light a fire as a base for creativity to prosper. Needless to say, it certainly worked out well. Cost was not an issue here - this was intentional.
For reference, here's the highly unconventional, controversial list I played last Wednesday to a Top 4 finish:
Tortured Dredge
[4x] Tortured Existence
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Careful Study
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Narcomoeba
[1x] Dread Return
[1x] Ancestor's Chosen
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Gemstone Mine
[3x] Swamp
[2x] Undiscovered Paradise
//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Firestorm
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Ingot Chewer
[2x] Wispmare
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
Basically, I took the deck raw into the event as just decided to give it a try. Even I broke some conventions by running three Narcomoeba (cringe). At any rate, here were my matchups:
RD1: vs. U/r Delver Burn (2-0)
Highlight: I was able to get the T.E. engine online early both games. Game two I avoided a Surgical Extraction on my Grave-Troll by cycling Street Wraith. I subsequently brought it back and dredged twelve the next turn into the win.
RD2: vs. U/w Stoneblade (2-1)
Highlight: As previously stated, I was able to destroy a Cage by recurring a Chewer and destroying the artifact. I grinded out the game three victory by attacking with zombies.
RD3: vs. NO RUG (0-2)
Highlight: I played into my opponent's combo finish as I didn't expect it. However, I was a single turn away from racing Progenitus with three Ichorids. Game two was a little more of the same.
RD4: vs. Reanimator (2-0)
Highlight: Aside from my still-in-high-school opponent being a total prick, I buried him under a mountain of recurring Faerie Macabre's game's one and two. I think he was a little perturbed I was main-decking Macabre, so that threw him off. Elesh Norn did not enter the battlefield, nor did his attempt game two for a Blazing Archon. After dropping T.E., he read it and scooped.
Thoughts: I am well aware the deck has some serious gaping flaws in it - notably the land configuration. However, I really think this engine can be incredibly powerful. Tortured Existence in Dredge can act dangerously close to a one-CMC Survival of the Fittest in that you're able to spend a single mana repeatedly to retrieve a card from your deck (in this case your graveyard) at the cost of additionally discarding a creature card. The card basically sealed victories against Reanimator - a terrible match-up for traditional Dredge variants - and Cage - by finding a dredged Chewer and bringing it to my hand. The instance I cycled a Street Wraith to protect me from Extraction was also relevant, to be sure.
I opted to main-deck two Faerie's because when you open with only a Tortured Existence, you want to be able to pitch a creature in order to activate the card and get it online in a hurry. Obviously, that's not necessarily the optimal line of play, but it certainly helps. I was bouncing around how many lands I wanted to run, whether to play or draw first, and how I should consider side-boarding. This variation of Dredge needs a boatload of work, but I think with some tweaking and deeper assessment it can become a legitimate threat.
The list I played deserves to be ripped apart and bashed. I knew that the second I built it. So, have at it.
Tortured existance... play 4x bloodghast and some dryad arbors. Easy to slam some warm bodies on the field when your bridges are failing you. Its like running 4 more bridges that are slightly worse.
Looks pretty nifty. Weren't you scared though that if your opponents see you dredge the enchantment into your GY that they would board in some kind of hate against it?
There is so much hate against dredge already and normally its safe from enchantment removal. I understand this card will not be the number one card they will want to focus, but still just asking.
Congratz on the finish, Hollywood.
Looks interesting for sure. I've been playing with Existence in Cube for years, yet never had the idea to try it out in Dredge.
I'm a bit hesitant towards that list due to the huge speed loss, but I'm sure the list has something going for it when it comes to grinding out games and doing funny tricks with TE. Good work!
As much as I like innovation, without the draw spells you're decreasing your fundamental turn and with Tortured Existence you're making your deck vulnerable to Wasteland, I think you've only traded vulnerabilities in one area for vulnerabilites in another and I really dislike any less than 8xCareful Study.
I think if you want to concentrate on resiliency, Phantasmagorian is still the place to do it.
Agreed all the way. Question is, can we work around T.E. and build something worthwhile around it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Well, I was considering if Fetchland manabase and dual lands + Swamp could stabilize the manabase, I've also been thinking about how a Fetchland manabase could affect Dredge in terms of manabase stabilization for Cephalid Coliseum via Island and circumventing the combat step (sort of) with Wonder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Final Fortune:
What does your current list look like? I find myself curious because I am in the process of assessing the DDD plan.
4 City of BrassQuote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Firestorm
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
I'm sure you can make an argument for LED and/or cutting a land or two for Dread Return, but I usually play Dredge this way in order to beat Zoo, Maverick, RUG and Blade Control and just sack the Storm and Reanimator match ups.
Just went 5-3 at the gp with one cephalid coliseum total. I think with faithless looting, and possibly wispmare in a tortured existence build, the land is overkill. I would rather just have consistent 5 color mana available. If we weren't so shy on land to begin with, I would agree with you about the fetches/dual lands setup. The problem is, right now we need our lands to produce at least three colors, usually in the first two turns. Lost to enchantress round two, even with an aura thief in sideboard! Game one he plays t1 windswept heath. I t1 loot/crack led/flashback loot into a single bridge, single narcomoeba, single therapy, and some other decent cards. I target him with therapy, he scoops. Had no idea what he was on, figured maverick. Brought in firestorm and chewer (i like it more than grudge with the thug synergy, even without tortured existence, which is probably the direction this should be taking...with led of course) and obviously he was enchantress, with a t1 chrome mox, forest wild growth, ground seal to shut off dread return and thug recursion. Had I any relevant info about what he was playing I would have boarded wispmares and aura thief correctly. t2 double enchantress, one of them the enchant, sanctum. t3 solitary confinement and the 4/4 angel enchantment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I really hate losing to wild growth. Okay, good night, half of this room made day two (brandon large and anthony eason) so they will be waking me up in like three hours :)
I don't really disagree, I just wanted to experiment with a fetchland manabase to abuse Wonder, but I don't think being over reliant on your grave yard and not being able to reliably play Nature's Claim is worth it.
I'm glad people are finally comming around on Cephalid Coliseum, I've been saying Cephalid Coliseum is a tremendous weakness in the manabase in terms of mana stability and vulnerability to Wasteland for awhile and I typically SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and Cephalid Coliseum for either lands and answers or lands and Firestorm. About the only reason I bother with LED and Cephalid Coliseum is that they maximize your turn 1 win percentage vs the field, most notably vs Storm, and I think that's a lot better than SBing match specific hate, notably vs Reanimator but I think that match up is just fucking impossible to win anyway.
Depending on the rest of your color requirements, Horizon Canopy can be a less explosive version of Colliseum (Can cast Nature's Claim and Wispmare). I'm not suggesting this is neccesarily better than the alternatives, but it could be worth considering if you move into those colors more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I agree with a number of things you say, because you usually have sound arguments for your theories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
But you are incredibly wrong about Cephalid Coliseum. You can't see its potential if you still see it as a land. CC is not a land. It's a draw spell. the fact that it also provides mana is just what puts it over the top for Dredge.
However, I do see that in a list that is built around the DDD plan, CC is worse than the other draw spells, because it can't be 'cast' off a lone land after you've DDDed for a few turns. So for your particular list, I'll admit that CC isn't absolutely necessary.
But it should be mentioned that there is no way one can build a Dredge deck that wants to be on the play without a full set of Cephalid Coliseum in it. In those builds, CC isn't the weak link of your mana base, it's rather the strong part of your draw engine.
I don't have a problem with Cephalid Coliseum when it's backed up by Lion's Eye Diamond or you're taking your time to play Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, it's game 2 when you need to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and support blue, black, red and green mana where relying on an only U producling land and a draw spell that needs Threshold vs hate is going to strain your deck's color requirements.
I think it's a card people don't SB out enough, or rather don't put cards in their SB in order to be able to SB it out at all, and in the absence of LED Cephalid Coliseum gives "Quad Laser" manabase instability.
@ FinalFortune I like your list... It is very similiar to mine and I am always a fan of QuadFirestorm. But... Why are you still playing Phantasmagorian? I know PImp is one of the worst cards in Quadlazer, but I don't see Phant being that much better. Phant is REALLY good if you play with Shadows but without Shadows I wouldn't play it. I know it is black and it can feed to Ichorid, but what about Street Wraith in that slot? It's also Ichorid-food and it speeds up your deck. And it also gives you protection from Surgicaling your Dredgers like Phant can do.