[Primer/Deck] Pox

I respectfully disagree.

Lands plays around Innocent Blood easily, and they are most likely already playing around Liliana/Smallpox. Sideboarded Diabolic Edict x1-3 seems much more reasonable against Dark Depths, alongside Pithing Needle x2-3 (for Stage.) EoT Stage/Depths activation, their turn 20 you.

DnT is a creature-heavy deck, making it even worse to play Innocent Blood. They will have up to 2-3 creatures on the board, allowing them to sacrifice their worse dude. Their mana-denial plan is actually pretty strong against us, allowing them to pick their windows for getting multiple creatures on the board. I would almost always want Fatal Push to deal with DnT. Maindeck Ratchet Bomb and sideboarded Engineered Plagues are also incredibly good against them, and Darkblast is incredible. Innocent Blood, in my experience, is actually one of the weakest removals the deck can play.

This is all in my experience of course, but I think Fatal Push, and even more so Collective Brutality, have replaced Innocent Blood. They are just better cards. Most of the rest of the deck is dedicated to doing the traditional Pox plan (smallpox, liliana, pox, targeted discard) so Innocent Blood is the natural place to sub out removal.

Obviously I'm new to the deck, but I'm a fan of main deck Ratchet bomb for sure - I've played it in prison builds of Dragon Stompy and it never fails to be solid, though admittedly sometimes kind of slow. At the very least it provides an out against a lot of enchantments/artifacts.

Innocent Blood does seem slow and weak in a lot of ways, especially the sorcery speed, so I'm not too set on keeping it (though I do like the art...).

My meta is a lot of 'fair' decks (part of why I was attracted to Pox is that I hear it's good against such decks) - would you recommend Darkblast in the maindeck? I'm not sure I can get Fatal Pushes right away, but even if I did the recursion element of Darkblast seems quite valuable, especially given that you can discard it to Smallpox without thinking too hard. And it kills a lot of important stuff - unflipped Delvers, Pyromancers, Whisps and Thalias. Sadly not Deathrite Shaman, but you can't win them all I guess.

Hey guys, I'll be playing this list tonight at an FNM where I'm not sure which deck's I will be facing. I don't have the huge money cards, so I'll focus on land disruption including two MB Trinisphere. I was wondering if I should drop a dark ritual for something, and sideboard help is for sure welcome. Any feedback is good feedback, thanks.

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Bojuka Bog
11 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole

4 Innocent Blood

4 Dark Ritual

2 Trinisphere

3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Collective Brutality
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Withering Wisps
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Obviously I'm new to the deck, but I'm a fan of main deck Ratchet bomb for sure - I've played it in prison builds of Dragon Stompy and it never fails to be solid, though admittedly sometimes kind of slow. At the very least it provides an out against a lot of enchantments/artifacts.

Innocent Blood does seem slow and weak in a lot of ways, especially the sorcery speed, so I'm not too set on keeping it (though I do like the art...).

My meta is a lot of 'fair' decks (part of why I was attracted to Pox is that I hear it's good against such decks) - would you recommend Darkblast in the maindeck? I'm not sure I can get Fatal Pushes right away, but even if I did the recursion element of Darkblast seems quite valuable, especially given that you can discard it to Smallpox without thinking too hard. And it kills a lot of important stuff - unflipped Delvers, Pyromancers, Whisps and Thalias. Sadly not Deathrite Shaman, but you can't win them all I guess.

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Let me introduce you to the awesomeness of Darkblast:

Upkeep, play Darkblast. Draw step, dredge Darkblast, play it again. Kill any x/2 you want. It's even great against Mother of Runes because you can do the same trick, they protect the dude, then you dredge it during draw step and deal with the Mom. It takes a turn or two to slog through but the inevitability is there.

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by GoblinShrine

Hey guys, I'll be playing this list tonight at an FNM where I'm not sure which deck's I will be facing. I don't have the huge money cards, so I'll focus on land disruption including two MB Trinisphere. I was wondering if I should drop a dark ritual for something, and sideboard help is for sure welcome. Any feedback is good feedback, thanks.

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Bojuka Bog
11 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole

4 Innocent Blood

4 Dark Ritual

2 Trinisphere

3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Collective Brutality
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Withering Wisps
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

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I almost always play 3x Ritual now...its just lousy late game. Trinisphere seems like a sideboard card; it makes all of your disruption cost more, too. It will make for awkward choices of playing only one spell a turn OR playing a spell/wasteland or playing 2 spells. That's if you are not mana-screwed from doing previous Smallpox's as well. Seems risky to me. Turns where you do nothing happen a lot in Pox, so its important to minimize those things. Trinisphere against some decks (storm, tempo decks) is amazing, but most of the time I think it will hurt you too much.

For my thoughts on Innocent Blood, see above. If you have Ratchet Bombs, play them. I would also suggest maindeck Brutality. Sinkhole is fairly underwhelming in my metagame ATM, it just doesn't do enough. I only really liked it against Storm/low land count decks.

I liked the Innocent bloods for being able to take out Leovolds and True Name Nemesis, or just a turn 1 answer against several effects. Collective Brutality was pretty good.

I ran the list this week. Made changes to drop all Sinkholes and run 2x Brutalities, 3x Innocent Blood, 2x Ratchet bombs. Went 0-2 DnT, 1-2 4c Leovold Control, 2-1 UWr Stoneblade.

Two of my losses were to top-decked Stoneforges that got Batterskull, and I wasn't able to answer the equipment or token. Loss against DnT was when he had 2 active Vials and I made a #yolo play of putting out Nether Void for no good reason, then couldn't answer the creatures fast enough. Other loss against 4c was when he got a TNN and Baleful Strix that Abyss couldn't kill, then a million snapcasters and Kcommands to eventually flood the board.

Wins involved just good ol Pox control or dropping Abyss/Nether Void and being able to win from there. I think my sideboard and sideboarding were suboptimal though.

Flex spots main:

1x Abyss
1x Nether Void
1x Pox (I never know when to play this)
3x Innocent Blood
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
2x Nether Spirit
1x Tombstalker
1x Tabernacle
1x Cabal Pit
1x Sea-Gate Wreckage

My board was:

3x Surgical (should I use this against Snapcaster?)
1x Chains
1x Culling Scales (I didn't draw it this time but I liked it last run)
2x Trinisphere (didn't use, should I use this against Snapcaster?)
2x Diabolic Edict (Good against TNN, but at times wasn't able to isolate it against Snapcasters)
1x Pithing Needle
1x Underworld Dreams (boarded against 4c control but didn't draw it until late)
2x Engineered Plague (was surprisingly good, had to burn one on Revokers and used another to answer TNN)
1x Damnation
1x Dread of Night

I don't like pithing needles but I figure that with Lands, Tezzeret, Vial decks and Stoneblade around it is time for four in the SB. Maybe one or two in main even.

Lands, Tezzeret, Vial decks and Stoneblade

Jund Goblin Elves Merfolk 12post Eldrazi stompy 4ccControl
URdelver
BUGdelver
DnT
Storm

Have i missed any relevant deck?

Just took the deck out for its first spin, had a lot of fun

Innocent Blood wasn't too hot sometimes, but not too too bad. Push doesn't kill Tombstalker and Angler, which is sad... wish there was a 1 cmc removal spell that killed anything :( Will probably try out a couple Pushes next time though.

At Hardcore's suggestion, I went with 1 maindeck Pithing Needle (I also had 1 Beseech the Queen in case I needed to grab it). It was very solid, was never sad to have drawn it. Saved me against Jund Lands by shutting off stage, helped against Vials, etc.

Also maindecked a Darkblast, and was quite pleased with the results

Glad to hear it! In the past I have run Chalice main deck as THE hate card, shutting off Ponder and Brainstorm. Problem is it can potentially interfere with one's own spells, like the rack,and I don't like that. Needle can do much against the more troublesome decks.

Isn't Beseech the Queen a big clunky?

Looking for tutors it occurred to me that I, with my fetch lands, could look outside black. I am not sure Gamble is optimal, considering the card loss, but if I want something fast...

I don't think you would want Gamble here unless you also wanted Entomb, because that's what it would usually be in Pox.

What are you tutoring for? I think Beseech is probably the best option outside of Grim Tutor, or you can run draw spells instead like Skeletal Scrying.

Dark Betrayal would work to kill black creatures, or Liliana's Defeat if you want the option to kill Liliana too but at sorcery speed. Wretched Banquet can pick off a single creature in play, otherwise it's killing DRS or fizzling against a flashed-in Snapcaster. Bone Splinters seems to be the only card that will unconditionally kill any creature, but you need to sac a Mishra's, Nether Spirit, or Bloodghast - at which point you could just as well use Toxic Deluge or Bontu's Reckoning.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Looking for tutors it occurred to me that I, with my fetch lands, could look outside black. I am not sure Gamble is optimal, considering the card loss, but if I want something fast...

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Dark Petition conveniently casts Pox/Liliana. Would definitely need 4x Dark Ritual to make it viable.

I swiped the Beseech the Queen idea from Adachi Ryosuke's lists, as far as I can tell that guy is the most consistently successful Pox player out there, and all his lists have 1-of Beseech (his most recent has 1-of Grim Tutor, but the idea is the same). Link to lists here. Admittedly he is in the Japanese metagame and all that, but hey, it can't be all that crazy.

Conceptually, I like the idea a lot since it gives us an added consistency and the ability to play some silver bullets. In practice I've only ever drawn it twice - once it saved my butt, the other time I misplayed and it got countered.

I'm going to continue tweaking Tamura Shigeyuki's W/B shell. I want to try to maximize the effectiveness of Collective Brutality, Bloodghast, and Lingering Souls in this list. This is what I'm going to test tomorrow...

Creatures - 5
2x Tombstalker
3x Bloodghast

Instants- 6
2x Fatal Push
4x Dark Ritual

Sorceries - 20
4x Lingering Souls
4x Smallpox
3x Vindicate
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
1x Innocent Blood
1x Toxic Deluge

Planeswalkers - 4
4x Liliana of the Veil

Lands - 25
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
6x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
1x Shambling Vent

Sideboard - 15
2x Pithing Needle
2x Bitterblossom
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Sinkhole
1x Warmth
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Lost Legacy
1x Toxic Deluge

Sideboard is still a work in-progress and is definitely geared for my meta versus a big tournament scene. Cabal Therapy is probably too risky for a full tournament, but I like it for local events. I'm really excited to give this a go as I think this is a color combo that has a lot of untapped potential.

i am still running 3 sinkholes in my list even though quite a few pox players seem to have been eschewing them..

i'm thinking of toying with a singleton Tainted Æther since 2 players in my LGS recently picked up food chain, the card also seems to have applications against many decks..my nether void hasn't arrived yet and trinisphere doesn't stop it..

it suffers from the "browbeat syndrome" in that the opponent has the option to choose, but with how our deck operates, i think the options are rather meager for the opponent..its a nonbo with nether spirit but i feel a single copy is fine..

i'll test out some games with it and if i deem it lackluster, i'd drop it..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chiptoon

I'm going to continue tweaking Tamura Shigeyuki's W/B shell. I want to try to maximize the effectiveness of Collective Brutality, Bloodghast, and Lingering Souls in this list. This is what I'm going to test tomorrow...

Creatures - 5
2x Tombstalker
3x Bloodghast

Instants- 6
2x Fatal Push
4x Dark Ritual

Sorceries - 20
4x Lingering Souls
4x Smallpox
3x Vindicate
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
1x Innocent Blood
1x Toxic Deluge

Planeswalkers - 4
4x Liliana of the Veil

Lands - 25
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
6x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
1x Shambling Vent

Sideboard - 15
2x Pithing Needle
2x Bitterblossom
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Sinkhole
1x Warmth
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Lost Legacy
1x Toxic Deluge

Sideboard is still a work in-progress and is definitely geared for my meta versus a big tournament scene. Cabal Therapy is probably too risky for a full tournament, but I like it for local events. I'm really excited to give this a go as I think this is a color combo that has a lot of untapped potential.

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Only 3 targeted discard and only 2 Hymns would make me nervous. I understand the need for somewhere to give so you can work in Souls/Vindicate but I think those are a little too important. *shrug* I would cut the Innocent Blood and some number of Dark Ritual. With the white splash its more focused on grinding out games, not explosive turn 1's.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i am still running 3 sinkholes in my list even though quite a few pox players seem to have been eschewing them..

i'm thinking of toying with a singleton Tainted Æther since 2 players in my LGS recently picked up food chain, the card also seems to have applications against many decks..my nether void hasn't arrived yet and trinisphere doesn't stop it..

it suffers from the "browbeat syndrome" in that the opponent has the option to choose, but with how our deck operates, i think the options are rather meager for the opponent..its a nonbo with nether spirit but i feel a single copy is fine..

i'll test out some games with it and if i deem it lackluster, i'd drop it..

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Not 100% that Tainted Aether would stop Food Chain in a combo turn. They'd play a Misthollow Griffin, trigger the sacrifice, and then respond by exiling the Griffin again. They could repeat and rack up a huge number of sacrifice triggers and then with their mana floating resolve them all (sacrificing all their land), then play the Walking Ballista. Even with that sacrifice trigger, they could remove counters to kill you in response.
Yeah it will totally end any grindy plan B they have, but I wouldn't consider yourself immune with Tainted Æther in play.

EDIT
The line of play described above would imply that you could cast Misthollow Griffin at instant speed in response to the trigger, which while useful is not inherently possible from the card itself.

So a more correct line of play would be to play Giffin, sac a land, exile Griffin and recast, repeated until there are no land left in play and you're forced to sac a creature. Then once you're stuck with a Griffin in play and nothing else to sacrifice then you would start exiling the creature to Food Chain in response. You would not "rack up a huge number of sacrifice triggers" as I stated above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Not 100% that Tainted Aether would stop Food Chain in a combo turn. They'd play a Misthollow Griffin, trigger the sacrifice, and then respond by exiling the Griffin again. They could repeat and rack up a huge number of sacrifice triggers and then with their mana floating resolve them all (sacrificing all their land), then play the Walking Ballista. Even with that sacrifice trigger, they could remove counters to kill you in response.
Yeah it will totally end any grindy plan B they have, but I wouldn't consider yourself immune with Tainted Æther in play.

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thanks, i have overlooked that..

Stopping food chain is basically a matter of using your discard/other permission wisely. Pithing needle doesn't do anything (chain is a mana ability) so your best shot is to keep them off of mana or try to hit a food chain with surgical/extirpate or use nether void/sphere of resistance