We may need to go bigger. Reality smasher just outclasses our rhinos.
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We may need to go bigger. Reality smasher just outclasses our rhinos.
We're too slow to go bigger. We need to go smarter. Glissa is something that'll usually be quick enough, can be GSZ'd for and stops the biggest thing they send at us each turn. In the worst case scenario Glissa causes the opponent to prepare an alpha-strike, which gives us a few turns to come up with another answer (after which we're probably capable of taking over the game). When you have a Rhino out, fetch a Dryad Arbor during combat and chump it. The Arbor will probably even live to fight another day (since Rhino + Arbor have 6 tougness and they only deal 5 damage). Or fuel a Diabolic Intent, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Now, on the topic of going bigger - maybe GSZ -> Fierce Empath into Conduit of Ruin can help out here (like if that isn't too slow, lol). It'd allow us to run something crazy like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, which should be more than enough to tone the Eldrazi horde down a notch.
In the worst case scenario we can fall back to my Summoner's Egg plan and have their Reality Smasher smash those eggs open only to find Emrakul and friends inside. Or Platinum Emperions (since they can't All Is Dust that).
4 PtE and 1 Glissa and 3 Pernicious Deed got the job done for me. It's only a couple games, but I don't think Eldrazi is an enormous threat against Nic Fit,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
not like Storm and Omnishow.
I will try glissa and switch up my removal sweet.
Finally ;-p
Is maxing the pte against the 4cotv deck the most intelligent idea? I know we have ad, but I don't wanna rely on it to blow cotv that much. Especially because ad is a bad card against them.
In my experience the key here is to survive and hit land drops, chump with everything to keep the life total safe and then blow their board out with deed.
I don't wanna change the best removal suite at our disposal only for a single flavour of the month deck to be honest
Ad/deed take care of 3ball and Chalice (and revoker). Path has reach on their creatures. Glissa seems very helpfull to.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
All in all not ideal, but this removal suite is strong against so many other MU's. It is fast and consistent.
This is the same "4pte is the best" argument! It's fine if you always play them, but I won't max on 1 mana removal spells specifically against the 4cotv.dec. And I won't run a 3 mana legend that dies to everything (karakas included) just for the flavour of the month matchup. This philosophy seems reasonable to meQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
E: glissa is one of the few creatures that die to stp, bolt AND decay. And karakas.
Again, 1 mana, instant, exile target creature. Name a reason to not run 4. And Chalice on 1 not being 1 of them, since that doesn't stop people from not running 4 Brainstorm for that matter.
Again, this is the 4pte argument, I don't wanna talk about this any more in general since everybody keep thinking that his own removal package is the best. It's fine. But to me it seemed you were talking specifically about the eldrazi mu, and in that mu I don't really think that running 2 additional paths is going to do much. Just my 2 centsQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Your not leaving much choice NOT to talk about it when your closing your statement that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
The best removal package against Eldrazi imo is Abrupt Decay + Swords to Plowshares (not looking specifically to NicFit, but on legacy in general). Abrupt Decay is pretty shitty against their bigger dudes, but at least it opens the road for Swords. We do not run Swords for the obvious reason that we have Path to Exile, which is better in our deck. Also Swords means you have a loss of tempo. We all agree on this.
The whole point about having Path to Exile is that it provides instant speed removal at the cost of 1 mana. WHY do you think i am again making that statement. We all seem to agree that 4 Rhino build is a midrange deck rather then a durdly slow deck. To fully power out its ability to close out games quickly is to keep the board clear while our bigger dudes keep stomping face. Path requires the least effort to support this strategy AND it so happens that Path puts pressure on the BIGDUDE.DEC on which we have trouble anyway. Being able to have a T1 answer is also pretty huge here. Saying that Path is not a intelligent choice because Chalice @ 1 stops it is a bald statement, this is because you are not taking in account the synergy with the decks strategy and the fact that we have at least 10 ways of dealing with Chalice game 1.
Games against Eldrazi resolve around answering their prison elements, while keeping their big dudes at bay and we keep pressure, tempo and/or advantage on them. This is exactly where 4 Rhino Fit wants to be, not only against Eldrazi, but also against a very large portion of the meta. Not bringing an optimized list with 4 of the cheapest removal in the game is a mistake. Yes, we are a manaramp deck by nature, but efficiency really pay's off. Now you can say you don't wanna talk about it no more.
I think the discussion we're having now could be interpreted as (or at least I will): how could we adjust our maindecks/sideboards to create a positive matchup vs this new deck in case it turns out to be a more popular deck than MUD has been [edit: perhaps it already is, online meta moves faster than my local I bet]. Just to put some perspective.
I think a Glissa could potentially be put in the sideboard of a junk deck, until a better (more flexible) answer is found. She may be maindeckable with strixes and engineered explosives around, possibly, or some other artifact theme. And about removal I imagine the existance of reality smasher doesn't mean go +1 path but more like making path slightly more attractive making it +0.3 or something... Depending on a lot of stuff (meta, how bad the matchup is, how much is solved by explorer + deed etc).
+1 vote for 4x Abrupt Decay here because of Pithing Needle. Against Eldrazi in games 2 and 3 yesterday he played Pithing Needle three times and Revoker twice, naming Deed each time, after it had wrecked him g1. Won the match 2-1 but Peedle on Deed made it a very close g3 until I could decay it.
What about playing Ratchet Bomb + Glissa, the Traitor as an additional way to answer Eldrazi stompy.
Ratchet is like a Deed you can pop a turn earlier to deal with Chalice and Glissa can get it back. Eh?
By the way, Glissa is a beast versus decks like MUD and Death and Taxes just on her own.
Engineered Explosives might be a solid choice instead since you can drop it for a higher amount right away. That second ability of Glissa does screams to get abused. The quickest way to find artifact is either Diabolic Intent, Enlightened Tutor or Trinket mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
With Trinket mage i can imagine a BUG Pod list which runs both Baleful Strix as Birthing Pod as additional artifact's to retrieve with Glissa. On the other hand, BUG pod might be to slow for Edrazi.
I think Engineered Explosives would be the artifact removal to play, at least over Ratchet Bomb, since you can use it to destroy something the same turn you cast it.
Also regarding Peedle, if they board it in then I'm guessing they board out Chalices and I'd be happy with that. With Chalices out of the picture we can ramp undisturbed (hardcasting Veterans and getting rid of their threats the best way, using Therapy).
I'm bringing the discussion back here. I don't need to comment on what removal suite is best...it's like I'm walking into a convo about comparing dicks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Smasher is a problem. Single targeted removal doesn't actually do anything. He forces you to 2-for-1 him with sword/path effects, force an edict effect, or Toxic yourself to death.
TK Seer is also problematic, as he removes business/answers from your hand. He's a bigger, tougher Clique for 4 mana sans flash.
I don't worry as much about the bigger guys. The midrange Eldrazi from the new set are hard for Nic Fit to deal with, especially when backed by Chalice.
Part of me wonders if we need to be proactive against them. Perhaps pursuing LD (Ruination, Wasteland), discard (TS, Hymn), and Liliana of the Veil as a hybrid edict/discard machine? I've noticed this deck sits around for a turn or two before it does anything substantial. If they chalice on turn 1, often they don't have something else until turn 3 or 4. I'm thinking if we can't rely on removal -- a typical way we win -- maybe we could think about alternative routes to victory.
Diabolic Edict seems pretty good here, since it kills Smasher and you can get TKS with it by responding to the ETB thoughtseize trigger.
Just played a 46-man tournament (my second Legacy tournament!). Took 6th with a typical Junk-Fit build. Not too much conscious decision in my card choices -- just went with what I could find the night before. The land choices are a bit weird because of the duals and fetches that I own. Also, I only own two Tops. I would've played a third.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Painful Truths
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Flip Walker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Slaughter Games
1 Glissa, Traitor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-- Match One -- BUG Delver
No basics for Path or Veteran, and had so much ramp that I could afford to lose stuff to Wasteland and Stifle. Game one, he didn't do anything for 2 turns, which made me think he was storm, until he Spell Pierced my Deed. I think this closed with Sigarda with little action. Game two he led with Delver/Deathrite Shaman, but I pulled ahead with Carpet and beat him down with Rhinos.
-- Match Two -- Show and Tell / Hive Mind
I had no idea what he was on game one. He Brainstormed a bit, played Grim Monolith into Hive Mind and I lost immediately. Boarded in Carpet, Canonist, Surgicals, Duress, Games. Game two: He plays Ponder on turn one, which I Surgicalled. As it turns out, he kept a loose hand on the pack of two Ponders, so I took the other out of his hand and followed up with a Cabal Therapy / Flashback. He couldn't recover. Game three: Again I Extract his turn-one Ponder (but no more in hand), and proceed to tear his hand apart with discard. He burns a Pyroclasm on Deathrite Shaman, and is unhappy when I follow it up with a Canonist and several Rhinos. Canonist stops him from comboing out, and I have Taiga mana to pay for a Hive-Minded Pact of the Titan.
-- Match Three -- BUG Delver (with Death's Shadow)
Same as match one. This seemed really unfair. Game one: he goes from 11 to 3 with Sylvan Library, and I have a hand of Rhinos.
-- Match Four -- Eldrazi Stompy
Game one, he leads with Eye of Ugin, double Endless Ones. I path an Endless One (he runs one Wastes) and decay the other. Siege Rhino holds the fort against Thought-Knot Seer and Matter Reshaper. He seems content to ram his Matter Reshapers into my Rhino to get some damage in. He plays Oblivion Sower; I play more Paths and a Witness into Path and swing through his nearly empty board with a Rhino and a 6/6 Ooze. Game 2: He's too fast with turn one Mimic, turn two Reality Smasher, turn three Thought-Knot Seer. I wipe the board with Toxic Deluge, but this puts me down to 6 or so. A Zenith'd Glissa buys me a few turns against Reality Smasher, but it gets Dismembered after a few turns, and I die to more Reality Smashers and Blinkmoth Nexuses. Game 3: Very early Sigarda due to Phyrexian Tower. Around turn 6, he's at fairly low life and uses Eye of Ugin to play 4 Matter Reshapers. I kill them all with Maelstrom Pulse (!), he doesn't get much off of them, and I kill him with Rhinos. I popped a Deed for two at some point, which was solid. Path was very, very good. Toxic Deluge is necessary, but I don't like it. Deluge for 2 against Delver is fine. Deluge for 5 against Eldrazi will make you lose 5 life and get hit with a follow-up Reality Smasher. I didn't see any Chalices out of this deck (he played Eldrazi Temple, so I don't know if he ran any) I don't think I would've been able to survive a turn-one Chalice on 1.
-- Match Five and Six -- draw to Top 8
-- Quarterfinals -- Miracles
Lost game one to a lot of Monks. Was able to keep him off Counterbalance, but he had an endless amount of countermagic and Termini. Game two: kept a hand of Carpet, Zenith, Elspeth, four lands. He got stuck on three lands for a bit while I manage to land Elspeth and hit him with tokens. I kill a Jace and bring him down to six until he finds Council's Judgment. I flood out and am unable to followup with much. He plays a Monk. I kill it. He Entreats for five angels. I look around with Top, end up having to play Nissa, flip her and hope to draw Deed or Deluge, which I don't.
Thoughts: most people don't know this deck, and are surprised/amused to be playing against Siege Rhino. Path to Exile is excellent. Glissa is OK, but it's pretty gimmicky and just buys a little time. Also, it's a sideboard slot against a minor deck. I never saw Courser or Slaughter Games. Elspeth is solid against Miracles, and I felt like I would've won game two if I had a few more threats. Never got Meren working; she died too quick or was countered. Flipping Nissa in the face of Plow is easy if you're tricky with fetchlands. Not sure if I would play this deck in the Los Angeles meta for a while. I got very lucky playing against two Delver decks and beating a Show and Tell deck. Apparently, not many people play Delver, and the top 8 had something like Lands, Miracles, MUD, Elves, Reanimator, and Storm. Blegh.
Got two Force of Wills in great condition!
Well put, my good man. It's what we do best!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
As a crazy person that doesn't run AD at all: Stuff like CotV are why I run a Qasali Pridemage. It's a GSZ'able creature that takes over the function of an arbitrary number of AD at the cost of a single slot (freeing up room for other cards). CotV also doesn't always need to be answered, more often than not one can just play around it. GSZ for Veteran Explorer is also a perfectly fine way to break through a CotV (and/or Trinisphere, for that matter). That being said, even without AD CotV usually is just a minor hindrance (even G1, when I don't have my Pridemage). I can't say I really care when it hits the field T1.
The only thing you lose when not running AD is the ability to easily kill Counterbalance and 3 CMC planeswalkers. Qasali Pridemage does, however, give you the ability to easily get rid of Batterskulls, Sneak Attacks and various other stuff. It also forms a wonderful engine when paired with Meren that can cause a lot of trouble.
One thing we're always overlooking when comparing AD vs. PtE is how they both affect the flow of our game in a different way. Most of the time we have 2 mana of each colour available to us at best. This means that when wanting to cast AD (or wanting to threaten to do so), you're unable to cast anything with GG in its manacost and unable to cast more than 1 other green spell, of which we run most. That's a pretty steep opportunity cost. PtE however does not fuck with our ability to power out the green core, regardless of its manacost (1 mana for PtE or 2 for AD. And yes, that also matters. Greatly). It's far more allowing when it comes to further developing your board state (which in turn should become large enough to not give a shit about 90% of the CMC <= 3 stuff so you can keep your removal up for stuff that your board can't handle).
On answering Reality Smasher: If need be, Glissa could get a SB slot (it dies to every spotremoval in the format but Eldrazi Stompy runs none of those). I wouldn't bother with Ratchet Bomb/Engineered Explosives though. Why? What does it bring to the table that we can't do already? Glissa is unique in that she's a GSZ'able way to stop the incoming horde that they can't rid of unless they All Is Dust her (at which point we're probably fucked either way). Otherwise, get creative. Siege Rhino + any other creature (including fetch into Arbor) trades with it 1-on-1. That's a game we can keep up longer then they can (or at least until we find our good ol' Pernicious Deed). And if your opponent is not stupid enough to attack right into that, well, yay!
Anyways, for now it's a fringe deck that has yet to prove itself and that we can quite likely deal with. We might just need to learn how.
On a sidenote: If we were to run a Glissa MD, replacing Pernicious Deeds for Engineered Explosives could be a thing. Could also just be crazytalk.