[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Safety: Do you have a straight GB list for the new meta? I'm looking at something low to the ground with crop rotation into bog/karakas main.

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I'm still committed to white and siege rhino. Crop Rotation I am using, in the main just for tower. I have a karakas and bog in the board. I ended up with 1 bop to include; it's a decent mana ramp with gsz if I don't have a sac outlet for veteran.

If you're looking for low to the ground I think dark confidant is really valuable. I would look to drop the clunkier big threats and instead just focus on bob and definitely use Mirri's Guile. T1 guile t2 Bob sounds good to me.

I can't help but think that it would be better to just go rock if you want a purely efficient list. I'd probably use wastelands and gsz into ramanup excavator, then go for goyfs and cheap spells. If you really want just a Bg list, brael should have you covered.

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Originally Posted by Brael

That's pretty much what I play. I haven't come up with a pure BG list yet that I like. I'm still thinking about some options. I've been more interested in abusing Intuition now that the great oppressor is gone, but I'm sure I'll get back to it before long.

This is where my list currently is, but as I said... it needs some work, particularly since I no longer think Armasaur makes the cut.

Land (23)

2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Instant (6)

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Crop Rotation
2x Diabolic Edict

Creature (19)

1x Chameleon Colossus
4x Dark Confidant
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Runic Armasaur
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (11)

4x Cabal Therapy
1x Collective Brutality
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

Enchantment (1)

1x Pernicious Deed

My main thought is that I think a combination of Steve/Meren/Nissa/Tracker makes for a really good value shell. Armasaur likely wants to be a Thragtusk instead, and I'm not too thrilled about Chameleon Colossus right now, I think it instead wants to be a card that makes for good Tower food.

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Kitchen finks?

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Originally Posted by Brael

particularly since I no longer think Armasaur makes the cut.

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What have you found with the dino? I was cautiously optimistic and planning on getting 1.

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Originally Posted by conboy31

What have you found with the dino? I was cautiously optimistic and planning on getting 1.

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It does a lot less without DRS in the meta. There's still a few decks that it's good against, but until the meta shakes out it seems like more of a SB option than anything.

I went up to 2 rhino because its a fairly easy splash and BUG has shit fatties to GSZ for. Preban, I was on a Savannah +1 Rhino.

The Scarab God is actually pretty strong in the matchups you want it in, namely any grindy creature matchup.

I'm a firm believer that you dont really need all your bombs to be GSZable hence only 3 GSZ. With JTMS, Brainstorms, Strix, tracker, filtering to your bombs is fairly easy.

the matchups I faced were UB Reanimator, RB Reanimator, RUG Delver, Jeskai Delver and Death and Taxes.

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Originally Posted by solnox

the matchups I faced were UB Reanimator, RB Reanimator,

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Scarab God = 5mana Scavenging Ooze klappa

I'm also skeptical that it's correct to splash only for Rhino but I like the look of the rest of the list.

the list is a lot leaner to the ground with a minimal "cool things" outside of The Scarab God. I havent had any issues with casting rhino or getting to it but a 4/5 Trampling body is something bug doesnt really have access to.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Safety: Do you have a straight GB list for the new meta? I'm looking at something low to the ground with crop rotation into bog/karakas main.

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A straight BG list with Crop Rotation I would probably incorporate Marit Lage into it.

I’m more tempted by a BG list with Natural Order and a light blue splash for Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Rework your manabase a bit. A 3/2/2 split of basics is likely bad here because you'll be a bit inconsistent in getting a T1 Veteran.

I would probably look at this for a manabase:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
5 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

This results in 17 T1 green sources, 12 T1 black, and 11 T1 white

It's possible only having 1 dual to get white is a problem, but in a Crop Rotation build I think you can get away with it since there's still a Plains, in addition to 4 Vet+2 Crop+4 fetches to get it. So in reality you have 10 sources of that basic Plains.

Do note, this manabase makes your Grave Titan and Sigarda unplayable so you'll need to find a substitute. I would suggest 1-2 Archons in place of those. I would consider a flip Nissa as well to take advantage of the Forest count.

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Thanks alot for the help! Very appriciated! =)

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

A straight BG list with Crop Rotation I would probably incorporate Marit Lage into it.

I’m more tempted by a BG list with Natural Order and a light blue splash for Brainstorm.

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I was debating Natural Order myself, with 1-2 targets (Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm.) In a deck that already goes bigger than most others I don't see why this is necessary, same with DD combo. In order to have consistency for a splash combo, you would still need 1 each of the lands (Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage) and then have 4x Hexmage. If you play 4x each of Depths/Stage you royally fuck over the mana-base, and at that point it would have to be Depths combo splashing GSZ. With big mana (explorer/therapy/tower) and Natural Order you are basically playing an old-style Tinker deck. GSZ is more akin to Survival, albeit no real combo potential, unless you go deep on Knight of the Reliquary, and once you do that, Maverick splashing DD combo is really a better option.

I tried doing GB nic fit with DD combo, even playing Primeval Titan to tutor up the pieces. The issue is this: if you already have a 6/6 trampler in play, why do you need an overkill 20/20? DD combo is actually hard to splash in and work appropriately unless you have another reason for having Hexmage in your deck (like anti-PW/Chalice tech, you can afford 4 flex spots to go to a utility creature.) Honestly, Crop Rotation is a powerful enough card doing things like Karakas/Bojuka Bog/Maze of Ith/Phyrexian Tower that it doesn't require a broken combo to make it good enough.

The closest thing to what you are mentioning is Slow Depths, which used Deathrite Shaman as the glue to hold it together. Deathrite slotted in for acceleration but also as a premier threat, only taking up 4 slots to do it. GSZ requires so much more deck space to justify itself: GSZ itself, 1-4 Veteran Explorers, 1+ utility silver bullet targets. At the bare minimum you're talking 6-8+ slots, and that's if you only want to get mana from GSZ or silver bullets like Gaddock Teeg, Reclamation Sage, and Scavenging Ooze.

There is a discussion about this a few pages back, I'll try and link it here.

EDIT: Here is a link to the page, and a detailed response from pettdan, which is what convinced me to switch over to Rhino Fit.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...hlight=hexmage

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I was debating Natural Order myself, with 1-2 targets (Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm.) In a deck that already goes bigger than most others I don't see why this is necessary, same with DD combo. In order to have consistency for a splash combo, you would still need 1 each of the lands (Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage) and then have 4x Hexmage. If you play 4x each of Depths/Stage you royally fuck over the mana-base, and at that point it would have to be Depths combo splashing GSZ. With big mana (explorer/therapy/tower) and Natural Order you are basically playing an old-style Tinker deck. GSZ is more akin to Survival, albeit no real combo potential, unless you go deep on Knight of the Reliquary, and once you do that, Maverick splashing DD combo is really a better option.

I tried doing GB nic fit with DD combo, even playing Primeval Titan to tutor up the pieces. The issue is this: if you already have a 6/6 trampler in play, why do you need an overkill 20/20? DD combo is actually hard to splash in and work appropriately unless you have another reason for having Hexmage in your deck (like anti-PW/Chalice tech, you can afford 4 flex spots to go to a utility creature.) Honestly, Crop Rotation is a powerful enough card doing things like Karakas/Bojuka Bog/Maze of Ith/Phyrexian Tower that it doesn't require a broken combo to make it good enough.

The closest thing to what you are mentioning is Slow Depths, which used Deathrite Shaman as the glue to hold it together. Deathrite slotted in for acceleration but also as a premier threat, only taking up 4 slots to do it. GSZ requires so much more deck space to justify itself: GSZ itself, 1-4 Veteran Explorers, 1+ utility silver bullet targets. At the bare minimum you're talking 6-8+ slots, and that's if you only want to get mana from GSZ or silver bullets like Gaddock Teeg, Reclamation Sage, and Scavenging Ooze.

There is a discussion about this a few pages back, I'll try and link it here.

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If you ponder a transformational SB, here are a few things that one should consider:

- Ruric Tharr is a must (especially against combo decks)
- Elderscale Wurm cannot be answered by some deck
- Progenitus/Worldspine are indeed very nice

I think there are many other options that should be looked into anyway.

My two cents !

I played BUG Nic Fit at FNM a few weeks ago and had a great time, beating Painter and D&T along the way. I had quite a few opening hands with Vet and Therapy that ended up with 3 mana open on turn 2 after flashing back Therapy. I found myself thinking I'd like to be able to use that mana on a planeswalker instead of the creature I had in hand. So I did a little brewing and I think I am going to try "Nissa Fit" at the next legacy FNM this month:

Creatures:18
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells:22
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Lands:20
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:15
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Force of Will

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

A straight BG list with Crop Rotation I would probably incorporate Marit Lage into it.

I’m more tempted by a BG list with Natural Order and a light blue splash for Brainstorm.

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I am at the point where I feel like BG has enough tools to compete with the format. The stable manabase + explorers are the best ramp, GSZ and Crop Rotation are the best tutors and Tireless Tracker is the best card advantage engine.

Filling outt he rest of the slots is the hard part but I feel like a towers/witness engine beats anything that a late game deck wants to accomplish while deluge/deed can hold down the fort against aggro.

Hymn/Decay/Brutality/Push/Therapy fills the disruption slots and at that point I am just looking at numbers and flex slots.

Working on a list right now but this is where my head is at.

Would this thread be the appropriate place to discuss Arena Rector builds; or does that start to deviate far enough into a new archetype to go into New/Dev Decks?

@lavafrogg: I strongly suggest using Brael's list as a starting point. Remember that Collective Brutality + Lingering Souls is pure gas. If I move back over to Rock I'll definitely be doing 2x Brutality in place of 2 of the hymns and upping my souls count to at least 3, maybe even 4. I feel like in that deck, one of the few that still plays Liliana of the Veil, those cards are incredibly potent. I'd much rather keep cards in hand for Nic Fit, as every threat and disruption counts. Extra lands are something to pitch to Brutality, but even those are incredibly valuable. I am by no means an expert, but Collective Brutality seems to be awkward in this deck, and I dare say even incorrect.

@Ralf: I forgot about Elderscale Wurm and Ruric Thar, definitely very good targets for Natural Order!

If I did a transformational sideboard I would probably do this:

-2 Lost Legacy
-1 Golgari Charm
-1 Toxic Deluge
-1 Reclamation Sage

+3 Natural Order
+2 Beefcakes (probably Ruric Thar + Progenitus)

Elderscale Wurm and Worldspine Wurm both have their merits, one making you *not* lose, the other making you possibly win faster than Progenitus. I think the protection from Progenitus is likely better than Worldspine Wurm, although maybe with a Rhino list it gets the opponent within reach. Everything is weak to Terminus, but that's the only card that really gets us in that situation. It should be easy to have another creature to avoid Diabolic Edict, Karakas can't bounce Progenitus.

I might actually lean towards Elderscale and Ruric Thar, simply because if drawn both are actually reasonable to cast in Nic Fit. Thar needs red, so that is a little awkward, but as a GSZ/NO target it's fine. Elderscale is easily played, even at triple green.

I have much to think about...especially since NO is so affordable and all of the targets are like $5 or less. Easy even for a budget-minded person such as myself.

I'm assuming everyone has seen the Omni-Rector deck Caleb Durward was piloting?


4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
3 Arena Rector
1 Karn Liberated
1 Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
4 Living Wish
4 Eureka
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Omniscience
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Thoughtseize
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Academy Rector
1 Arena Rector
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


And the hilarious turn he had:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co...8Q&sh=865451f0

It's definitely a sweet deck! He's using Eureka and the Rectors, Living Wish, and Evolutionary Leap. It's definitely spicy and super powerful, but Nic Fit it is not.

Thanks for sharing! Maybe it will give some folks in here ideas for how to shape an Arena Rector list.

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Originally Posted by walked

Would this thread be the appropriate place to discuss Arena Rector builds; or does that start to deviate far enough into a new archetype to go into New/Dev Decks?

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Go for it. We have Academy Rector builds in here already.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I am at the point where I feel like BG has enough tools to compete with the format. The stable manabase + explorers are the best ramp, GSZ and Crop Rotation are the best tutors and Tireless Tracker is the best card advantage engine.

Filling outt he rest of the slots is the hard part but I feel like a towers/witness engine beats anything that a late game deck wants to accomplish while deluge/deed can hold down the fort against aggro.

Hymn/Decay/Brutality/Push/Therapy fills the disruption slots and at that point I am just looking at numbers and flex slots.

Working on a list right now but this is where my head is at.

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I like putting Bob alongside Tracker. Your first CA creature will likely die. So having 12 draws at repeatable CA (including GSZ), plus Volraths/Crop Rotation to get it back gives you a lot of resilience.

The dirty little secret to Legacy, at least during the DRS era, was that very few decks could beat a lot of card advantage. Plus, with the disruption you're pairing with it, your curve is going to be naturally low anyways which is precisely where Bob wants to be.

That said, I'm not a fan of Hymn, it requires too much of an early commitment to black.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I like putting Bob alongside Tracker. Your first CA creature will likely die. So having 12 draws at repeatable CA (including GSZ), plus Volraths/Crop Rotation to get it back gives you a lot of resilience.

The dirty little secret to Legacy, at least during the DRS era, was that very few decks could beat a lot of card advantage. Plus, with the disruption you're pairing with it, your curve is going to be naturally low anyways which is precisely where Bob wants to be.

That said, I'm not a fan of Hymn, it requires too much of an early commitment to black.

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So Hymn for seize or brutality?

Hymn is just really powerful and gets free wins itself. I also love having a real weapon against combo on turn 2.

As the legacy challenges and new lists come out I think this could be a ton of fun.