[DTB] Vial Goblins

I pretty much agree with Media. Instigator isn't going to be super strong in that metagame. Chalice of the Void seems pretty pointless in your sideboard unless you have combo, burn, zoo, AND tempo thresh, if you don't have just a crazy amount of decks relying on 1cc or 0cc it doesn't seem worth the spots for me in today's metagame where the combo matchup is very bad for goblins. I'm assuming you are playing mono red, if you expect half the metagame to be playing firespout or plague, I'd probably go up to 3 boartusks. But I don't really like him all that much, it also depends on the manabase you are running. Make sure you are running at least 3 md stingscourgers in that metagame, as he rocks house against merfolk and zoo, and probably eva green to some extent but I haven't really tested that matchup.

Few questions/thoughts:

1) What's the deal with Boartusk Liege in the board? I know about eplague, but are four Chieftains not enough? Liege seems like a massive step down in quality.

2) How often do you pay the echo on Stingscourger?

3) On the previous page, FoulQ commented that he could always get to RR with 17 mountains, but I'll just point out the obvious: 18 red sources when exposing non-basics is less likely to get RR consistently than 17 mountains.

4) People are cutting Piledrivers from their builds. I've always thought he was godly, but maybe the deck is going that way. Anyway to my point: without Warren Weirding, fewer Piledrivers, and more lackey effects, I wonder if Warchief is still better than Chieftain.

It seems pretty common to see 2 Chieftains (Chief) and 4 Warchiefs (CT), but: Chief is much, much better with Instigator (for one, he lets Instigator hit for 4. Also if Instigator connects, the reduced mana cost from Warchief isn't as important, and Chief can't reduce the cost of Instigator anyway), and arguably with SGC. Chief functions in Piledriver's role to end the game, but does it better than Piledriver because he can't get one-chumped. Chief naturally dodges the hate of Eplague.

I don't play Goblins a whole lot, but in the few games I played, I was almost always happier to see Chief than WC.

1) Boartusk Liege is also pretty legit against firespout and pyroclasm, as well as against plague. He is all-around okay creature to have around if you have dead cards in your deck (for instance, stingscourger in the landstill matchup). I personally don't think he is that wonderful, I'm just playing 4 chieftains in my 75 and that works just fine for me, as I don't see plague that often. But I can understand a metagame with lots of plague and lots of firespout/clasm where he would be stronger.

2) Personally not that often. Usually only when I am in an offensive position, have no real threats in hand, and am desperate for some attackers to kill my opponent as quickly as possible to give him less time to draw answers. Other times are when I'm in a desperate position to have a blocker for next turn, but I often block with stingscourger the previous turn and he isn't around to pay echo anyways (for example, low on life against zoo, bounce a thoctar and then block a nacatl is often a great play if your life total is getting dangerously low). It basically comes down to knowing your decklist really well here and estimating how likely you are to draw a card more worthwhile for the 3R cost. This requires a little bit of math and a very intimate knowledge of your decklist though.

3) What? I assume you are saying RR is easier to get with 18 mountains than 17 mountains rather than what you did say. There have been a few times that I have gotten screwed by 17, but I think those very few times are worth the extra power that port brings in so many games. Those times are very few and far between. I am currently playing 4 instigators, 4 chieftains, and 4 warchief within my 75 cards, and even now it doesn't seem to be much of a problem thanks to the resiliency of the manabase.

4) This is a really hotly contested point and I don't think either side really has long enough playtime with chieftain and instigator to really comment on it very confidently. Here is what I said not that long ago and stick by it, for now:

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Goblin Chieftain is great and all. He won me games, plain and simple, but as a 4-of that is very demanding on deck space. I have said it once and I'll say it again: I don't think we should be focusing on efficient P/T because we are already so outclassed by other decks. Merfolk has 12 lords. Control decks have a 4/5 for 1G. Zoo has a 3/3 for a G. And so forth. I think he is a good late game card though, so 1-2 and maybe 3 I think is the best way to devote to your maindeck. I also think he gets significantly worse when people are playing 1 siege gang commander.

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Instead of the actual creatures, I think we should focus more on the enormous tempo we can muster from not only individual cards like vial, warchief, and stingscourger, but the insane tempo boost that they give us all together as a sort of engine. I definitely advocate for 5+ haste effects in the deck, but we are starting to get dangerously close to pulling the whole machine apart already. Piledriver was never really part of the engine so much as a way to finish off our opponent's quickly before they had time to draw answers to our machine. Chieftain is great sometimes for me, simply a game winner, and other times he is meh. I am currently testing boarding in 2 making it 4 md against merfolk. It has been spectacular sometimes but not helpful at all other times. Chieftain will allow for explosiveness at the sake of consistency, as goblin warchief is great by himself (allowing his friends to come and play much easier, and play with haste), while chieftain is the best when you get SGC or a similar amount of guys in play. And I feel the strength of goblins is in the fact that it is a consistent aggro deck which is very hard to find in any format, unlike a deck like zoo, which often has to rely on the top of the deck in order to seal the win.

I agree with you that Chieftain fills the same design space as piledriver in finishing the game as quickly as possible once you have established a dominant board position, which is why I don't advocate playing too many of those types of cards. There are still a lot of people out there that play 4 chieftains though, and they obviously have a large backing, and I would really like to hear their thoughts on all of this, but I feel that we need to look at the focus of goblins again before adding cards that seem busted when we draw them.

agreed, I don't think an ideal post-zendikar build exists yet (if there even is one), I think more testing and tourney results need to be made, and I think the mix of chieftain/warchief/piledriver/SGC largely depends on area meta's, I've tested 4/4/4/2 with 4 instigators, I like it, but i'm not dead set on that spread... I could see 3/3 warchief/chieftain split, 3 sgc.. infinite possibilities are viable on paper at this point really.

Mono red no fetch's is the way to go imo.

Incidentally, I did mean that it's easier to get RR with 17 basic mountains than it is to get to RR with 18 red sources (of which prolly 5 or 6 are mountains, 7-8 are fetchlands, and 5 are nonbasics).

19 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lacky
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-gang Commander

3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

SB-
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Vandal
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus (or whatever)

This is my vision for the future of goblins. I cut the Piledrivers for War Marshals because it buys time against Aggro to get to the mid game and gives you something to do after being Wrathed (or Clasmed or Spouted).

Goblin Chieftain is also the natural choice over Goblin Warchief with 4 Instigators and 4 War Marshalls. Also, 4 Chieftain also seems pretty obvious when you consider how much of a problem Engineered Plague is, I don't why I didn't switch out the Warchiefs quicker.

Stingscourger also buys time against aggro and clears the way for 8 Lackey effects.

This version can be less explosive than more traditional versions of the deck, but 8 Lackey effect help fill the void and Stingscourger and War Marhsal help you get to the midgame.

R/b Vial Goblins

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Badlands
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
4 [AT] Goblin Matron
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

That's what I'm working with right now.

I have a few things that I'm trying to figure out.

First of all, what is the right combination of Weirding/Gempalm/Stingscourger. For those that have tested more than myself, what have you found? Also, is 8 removal overkill?

With Instigator, should I be running more than 1 SGC?

I feel that with 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, and 2 Instigator... 22 lands should be the right amount. Am I right or wrong in that line of thinking?

Would more Instigator's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now. Would more Chieftan's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now.

I really like the singleton Wort, which basically acts like Ringleader #5.

Should I be running Earwig Squads in the sideboard instead of Chalice (Chalice is there for combo)?

Opinions appreciated.

I pretty much like every aspect of BKClassic's list except for the lack of Warchiefs. I feel like Warchief still does too much (Enable ridiculous chains of Goblins for minimal mana, enable turn 4 Siege-Gangs, acting as haste-all 5-8, etc.) I don't really know where to put them, though.

Mogg War Marshal has really outshined Piledriver in most situations (The exceptions being against blue and against decks where I need to deal as much damage as fast as possible.)

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Originally Posted by Hanni

R/b Vial Goblins


That's what I'm working with right now.

I have a few things that I'm trying to figure out.

First of all, what is the right combination of Weirding/Gempalm/Stingscourger. For those that have tested more than myself, what have you found? Also, is 8 removal overkill?

With Instigator, should I be running more than 1 SGC?

I feel that with 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, and 2 Instigator... 22 lands should be the right amount. Am I right or wrong in that line of thinking?

Would more Instigator's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now. Would more Chieftan's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now.

I really like the singleton Wort, which basically acts like Ringleader #5.

Should I be running Earwig Squads in the sideboard instead of Chalice (Chalice is there for combo)?

Opinions appreciated.

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-Mono red 3 stingers 3 incinerators, 5-6 is generally best for removal

-you should most definitely be running more than 1 SGC, at 2 minimum, FoulQ hits 3 these days I hear

-in mono red 21 is perfect, also prolly wanna try 3 instigators bro, or even 4... it gets stupidly silly in a hurry, And I really like 4 chieftain main, but there is a lot of wiggle room on the splits of your dude's, and chalice kinda blows in the board, thorn would be better and have more applications.

All I can say is to go play-test against a couple dudes, bring a few decks, and all your gobo shit and hammer it out man.

I think running 8 lackey's warrants 2-3 SGC, 8 haste lords (7 minimum). 3-4 sting-scourger (make sure lackey's connect) 2-3 incinerators (5-7 removal in all), 4 matron, 4 ringleader, 3-4 piledriver, and 4 vial with 17 mtns and 4 wastes, is a pretty good skeleton, I've had great results and its fun to play.

I really don't think there is any reason not to run Mono-red, splashes just add inconsistency

I said it before and I'll say it again. Warchief is prolly the best Goblin EVER. Anybody not playing 4 needs to ask their special ed teacher what's up. Think about it... Piledriver for R, Ringleader for 2R, Matron for Piledriver for 1R R, with haste? C'mon why are people even considering running less than 4. Are you serious?! Chieftain is nice, I'm running 3 MD I think. But Warchief is what makes this deck nuts.

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Originally Posted by Space Ghost

I said it before and I'll say it again. Warchief is prolly the best Goblin EVER. Anybody not playing 4 needs to ask their special ed teacher what's up. Think about it... Piledriver for R, Ringleader for 2R, Matron for Piledriver for 1R R, with haste? C'mon why are people even considering running less than 4. Are you serious?! Chieftain is nice, I'm running 3 MD I think. But Warchief is what makes this deck nuts.

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Ineed, the - to the cost of your goblins makes them worth running 4. I run 4/3 warchief/chieftain split and would rather drop tp 2 chieftain than drop to 3 warchief anyday.

Instigator has been my spot of contetion, Right now I run 3, but in some situations it feels like too many... This deck worked fine with only 4 lackey effects for years, adding way too many just means some 1/1's that can bring goblins into play but if your hand is all land or other weakass goblins, it isnt worth the space.. I may drop the instigator count back to 2 to make my scg count 3 again. Even with only 6 lackey effects, he is really really amazing

I hate to ask again but could someone cle me into my earlier question about the fetchlands?

Fetches are less vulnerable since a lot more decks run wateland than stifle

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Fetches are less vulnerable since a lot more decks run wateland than stifle

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True. And the life loss from fetches can be a pain.
If you are monoR, go with no fetches.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Fetches are less vulnerable since a lot more decks run wateland than stifle

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Sure, consider this senario though:
No wasteland on the table but you know your opponent is playing then within his deck.

Do you search for a Swamp in the first three turns knowing that you need RR for many goblins and B for important removal (and perhaps the odd goblin)?.

I just imagine that, often enough, you would need one of your lands to tap for Black and Red early in the game, thus you would search for a dual and be just as opened to Wasteland.
There is also a decent chance that you will draw a dual or non-basic anyway and be just as vulnerable to Wasteland.
In this case you would have been better off drawing the dual than the fetch.

Perhaps I am just underestimating the ability the fetches give you to play around Wasteland...

Depending on the boardsituation and handcards u decide.
If its not necessary to have B asap, u fetch for the Mountain. Otherwise the dual.
If u had enough mountains already, u would fetch the swamp ofc.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Depending on the boardsituation and handcards u decide.
If its not necessary to have B asap, u fetch for the Mountain. Otherwise the dual.
If u had enough mountains already, u would fetch the swamp ofc.

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Yeah, that is obvious.
But how often do you curse yourself for having a Swamp, Wasteland and Mountain of your own when you are holding a hand of 1RR drops?

It is obvious that Fetches are strong; they are the most played card in Legacy if you consider their cycle as a single card. I'm not here to try and re-write how people should build their mana bases.
I'm just suprised that it is mainly for Wasteland insurance when you often(?) are in a position where you can't play around it anyway.

mainly its for manafixing (at least in the 3C decks)
goblin is a bit special, since the lorwyn dual has no drawback (very small one
but fetches are thinning library (ringleader, gas), also giving you small wasteland protection. but sometimes it can be useful to let ur opp waste u, cuz u run more manadenial (ports) and dont need much mana (lackeys, vial)

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

mainly its for manafixing (at least in the 3C decks)
goblin is a bit special, since the lorwyn dual has no drawback (very small one
but fetches are thinning library (ringleader, gas), also giving you small wasteland protection. but sometimes it can be useful to let ur opp waste u, cuz u run more manadenial (ports) and dont need much mana (lackeys, vial)

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I'm not trying to argue here, but tempo thresh is probably on of the most popular decks in the format right now, lots of stifle's in countertop,thresh,dreadstill,fish,etc.

and all those decks play wasteland, thats why mono red is the way to go, what do you gain by splashing? green gets grip and hooligan, white gets swords/path, black gets mad auntie and wierding, all good cards, but are they necessary? I think not so much.

I think, in the present environment, mono red gobs is the way to go. fetchies are nice to thin the deck, but are a stifle waiting to happen, getting a basic for your splash and you may have just lost the game by not being able to find :r: :r: . not to mention opposing wastelands can be game over, in any event, LD can wreck this deck. But the good news is that it's entirely preventable!! I just do not think splash is necessary anymore, tinkerer can take care of artifacts, stinger can take care of the fatties/remove blockers so you can swing with the team, incinerator is still great removal (not against a dreadnought, but thats what stingers for)..

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Ineed, the - to the cost of your goblins makes them worth running 4. I run 4/3 warchief/chieftain split and would rather drop tp 2 chieftain than drop to 3 warchief anyday.

Instigator has been my spot of contetion, Right now I run 3, but in some situations it feels like too many... This deck worked fine with only 4 lackey effects for years, adding way too many just means some 1/1's that can bring goblins into play but if your hand is all land or other weakass goblins, it isnt worth the space.. I may drop the instigator count back to 2 to make my scg count 3 again. Even with only 6 lackey effects, he is really really amazing

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The thing about my list is that you have to think about it a bit differently than a traditional Goblins list. In past goblin decks, Warchief is definitely the better call and just subbing them for Chieftain would be silly. But what I have presented isn't just the old-style list with Cheiftains in the place of Warchiefs and War Marshals in the place of Piledrivers (and Instigators worked in), but is, instead, built around Warren Instigator. If you except that Warren Instigator is good enough to build the deck around, than Goblin Chieftain quickly becomes more desirable than the Warchief (+1/+1 combos with double strike, more goblins will be coming into play for free, so cost reduction is a less necessary, a worthy trade for some plague resistantsyk). Once you except that, War Marshal becomes better than Piledriver (War Marshal is helps beat Zoo/aggro and control, we weren't beating combo too much anyway). 3 Siege-gang Commanders becomes obvious and the running 23 lands is pretty necessary without the cost reduction of Warchief.

With that said, Warchief doesn't necessarily not belong in my list. You could definitely squeeze in 4 by cutting a War Marshal, 2 Instigators and a Stingscourger, but I think this is kind of questionable. With those changes, you might just want to squeeze some Piledrivers and than you are pretty back to the old style list and 4 Chieftain seems less optimal.

At any rate, have some faith in the list. Swinging in with Mogg War Marshall, a goblin token, Goblin Chieftain and Warren Instigator is more damage (if unblocked) than swinging with Warchief, Matron and Piledriver. It has the mid game oomph of a traditional goblins deck as well as a better aggro match up.