Miracle Control

First of all, I don't like "Netdecking" at all, and this could be one reason that made me change my point of view.

Other reason is that I see the 4 Ponder version (Ein's creation) to have some problems with the starting hands (having 21 lands often makes you take a "land mulligan" when your hand is actually good, for example having 1 plain only).

I agree ponder is a powerful card in this deck, and when things have gone right, I have tasted its bright side. The problem is having only 21 lands, there are many times you use ponder just to keep getting your landrops, leaving you with one U land tapped for the opponent´s turn.

I have decided to try the 23 lands build, and with the rebirth of annoying decks with lilianas and HTT, and the existence of MUD, I have decided to leave some room for 2 Spell Pierce. I think this could be powerful with Snapcaster Mage, and with 23 lands you are supposed to drop a land every turn (T3 Snapcaster + Pierce to an enemy Jace/Lili, then T4 Jace should be GG).

Another strange (maybe fail) card I'd like to test is 1 Ghost Quarter. It could be useful against that pesky Boseiju, annoying Burnwillows/Rishadan, stupid Glacial Chasm...also it works as a shuffle effect (mirror match, delver decks or even yourself if you are in trouble).

Im currently running 61 cards (which could be a fail) because I don't find place for Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard, I'm running him main. This slot could be deleted or replaced with the 2nd Dig Through Time (even though without ponder it could be more difficult to cast it)

This is the decklist I'm talking about:

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
4 Polluted Delta
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Wear/Tear
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique

The main issue of choice I have is in the sideboard, what do you guys think?

I'm running 1 Keranos, God of Storms because vs control decks it is another win condition by himself.
Another special pick is 1 Enlightened Tutor that can be sideboarded in nearly every matchup (It allows you to search for Blood Moon, Keranos, Counterbalance, etc)

Any thoughts/advice?

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by sikariok9

First of all, I don't like "Netdecking" at all, and this could be one reason that made me change my point of view.

Other reason is that I see the 4 Ponder version (Ein's creation) to have some problems with the starting hands (having 21 lands often makes you take a "land mulligan" when your hand is actually good, for example having 1 plain only).

I agree ponder is a powerful card in this deck, and when things have gone right, I have tasted its bright side. The problem is having only 21 lands, there are many times you use ponder just to keep getting your landrops, leaving you with one U land tapped for the opponent´s turn.

I have decided to try the 23 lands build, and with the rebirth of annoying decks with lilianas and HTT, and the existence of MUD, I have decided to leave some room for 2 Spell Pierce. I think this could be powerful with Snapcaster Mage, and with 23 lands you are supposed to drop a land every turn (T3 Snapcaster + Pierce to an enemy Jace/Lili, then T4 Jace should be GG).

Another strange (maybe fail) card I'd like to test is 1 Ghost Quarter. It could be useful against that pesky Boseiju, annoying Burnwillows/Rishadan, stupid Glacial Chasm...also it works as a shuffle effect (mirror match, delver decks or even yourself if you are in trouble).

Im currently running 61 cards (which could be a fail) because I don't find place for Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard, I'm running him main. This slot could be deleted or replaced with the 2nd Dig Through Time (even though without ponder it could be more difficult to cast it)

This is the decklist I'm talking about:

I'm running 1 Keranos, God of Storms because vs control decks it is another win condition by himself.
Another special pick is 1 Enlightened Tutor that can be sideboarded in nearly every matchup (It allows you to search for Blood Moon, Keranos, Counterbalance, etc)

Any thoughts/advice?

Thank you!

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Here's Ein's comment regarding Spell Pierce post TC banning: "I couldn't pack everything into there, but here are a few points: Spell Pierce is a great card for a proactive deck. And yes, Miracles can be proactive if you have the right draws that revolve around a fast Counterbalance. But most of the time we don't want to punch through our stuff, and we don't really want a conditional card that is compleltly dead at some points in the game or against some opposing decks. Just as I said, when I Top8ed GP Paris I just wasn't as good in building Miracles as now."

I don't understand the reasoning for Keranos. Entreat is another win condition all by itself vs control deck also. As matter of fact, it's more reliable against control deck cause it cannot be Red Blasted on stack, which is Kerano's biggest weakness. However, taking a step back, if you find yourself surrounded by BUG decks in a given tournament, Keranos is not a bad choice.

I don't think you should ever lose to Glacial Chasm. If 12 Post runs that card, you're supposed to lose to 12 Post anyway, it's irrelevant. If it's Lands, you didn't lose to Lands because of Chasm, you lost because you didn't resolve CB early enough. Burnwillows should also be irrelevant. The only time you should ever lose to Burnwillows-Punishing Fire is because Jund attacks your hand and permanents with an explosive start. If Burnwillows is coming from Lands, again you're doing something wrong if you lose to that.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

I mean, yeah I can adjust the deck against the mirror, but I don't think the meta is skewed heavily enough for me to want to do that. Council's judgement is certainly staying, 4 ponders are certainly staying.

Council's judgement is great in the mirror, I don't understand how you can say otherwise: It reveals to CB to fight cliques and is hard to counterbalance while removing arguably the two most important cards in the matchup (Counterbalance + Jace). Additionally, it helps cliqueless builds fight liliana preboard while being a consistent fuck you to things that sneak under our general radar. Replacing the wear//tear with a second copy though has been on my mind and I might do just that.

Blood moon was there because some of the better players at the tournament were going to be on shardless and lands. As such I wanted a bomb against them out of laziness (though those players didn't even show up, one of them opted to the Grand Prix and top 8'd). I only touched it against BUG delver and never drew it. I regretted it not being the original EE each mirror match.

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Neither EE nor Council's Judgment are good in the mirror because neither fit into your plan of winning on the stack. To say otherwise only shows lack of experience from playing the mirror or from winning against inexperienced opponents (heck, if everyone keeps CJ/EE/weartear postboard how would you know?). These cards can be allright but why would you position yourself in a way that you have less chance resolving your own cb/hinder them from playing it (which is almost all that matters) just so that you can have a long-shot way of removing theirs with CJ/EE? I say long-shot because you only play one CJ and your opponent with CB in play is definitly favored in the upcoming counter war over your council's judgment. Sure, it's hard to actually counter CJ with CB but what if you have an actual counterspell in hand and a 1 on top? Also consider the fact you spend three mana in your main phase to handicap yourself even further. I much rather have additional blasts, snapcaster mages, spell snares or Counterspell. To be fair we can't put cards in our list just for the mirror but with what we got I still think Flusterstorm is better than CJ/EE/weartear and I also think that IF we for some reason fall behind in the CB-battle I much rather go for Entreat the Angels than any of those cards. Sometimes you are stuck with EE/CJ/weartear anyway because these are certainly better than the 8 removal spells most people play. I just rather have any other spell in hand than CJ when I have resolved my brainstorm.

CJ goes up in value when facing non-stock lists including ones with Elspeth, Keranos, Batterskull or Future Sight but it's still not good. CJ can also kill Jace, but the same principle from CB applies to Jace and it's a bad plan to begin with. Jace is also both a lot easier to stop (costing 4) and remove (not protecting itself the same way CB does).

With Sunburst Engingeered Explosives is easier to resolve through CB than most hate. It can also sweep a board with angels. It's still not good.

Sorry for the negative attitude but I've been saying this for a year now and people still don't get it:)

Stop worrying about falling behind and cement your role as the control player in the mirror. Wait for them to draw a pointless mulligan and punish them with your supreme plan and cards. The mirror is a long drawn out battle but the game is decided 99% of the times when one player untaps with Counterbalance in play.

Edit: To use your own list as an example. I would sideboard like this for the mirror.
-1 CJ -4 Terminus -4 Swords to plowshars -1 plains
+3 flusterstorm +3 clique +3 blasts +1 Counterspell

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...n-Control.html

Anyone read Karsten Kotter's take on Miracles?

He basically went -2 Snapcaster, -1 Jace, -1 Ponder, +2 Dig through Time, +1 Counterspell +1 Karakas. (and -1 fetch +1 island).

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Originally Posted by Mackan

Neither EE nor Council's Judgment are good in the mirror because neither fit into your plan of winning on the stack. To say otherwise only shows lack of experience from playing the mirror or from winning against inexperienced opponents (heck, if everyone keeps CJ/EE/weartear postboard how would you know?). These cards can be allright but why would you position yourself in a way that you have less chance resolving your own cb/hinder them from playing it (which is almost all that matters) just so that you can have a long-shot way of removing theirs with CJ/EE? I say long-shot because you only play one CJ and your opponent with CB in play is definitly favored in the upcoming counter war over your council's judgment. Sure, it's hard to actually counter CJ with CB but what if you have an actual counterspell in hand and a 1 on top? Also consider the fact you spend three mana in your main phase to handicap yourself even further. I much rather have additional blasts, snapcaster mages, spell snares or Counterspell. To be fair we can't put cards in our list just for the mirror but with what we got I still think Flusterstorm is better than CJ/EE/weartear and I also think that IF we for some reason fall behind in the CB-battle I much rather go for Entreat the Angels than any of those cards. Sometimes you are stuck with EE/CJ/weartear anyway because these are certainly better than the 8 removal spells most people play. I just rather have any other spell in hand than CJ when I have resolved my brainstorm.

CJ goes up in value when facing non-stock lists including ones with Elspeth, Keranos, Batterskull or Future Sight but it's still not good. CJ can also kill Jace, but the same principle from CB applies to Jace and it's a bad plan to begin with. Jace is also both a lot easier to stop (costing 4) and remove (not protecting itself the same way CB does).

With Sunburst Engingeered Explosives is easier to resolve through CB than most hate. It can also sweep a board with angels. It's still not good.

Sorry for the negative attitude but I've been saying this for a year now and people still don't get it:)

Stop worrying about falling behind and cement your role as the control player in the mirror. Wait for them to draw a pointless mulligan and punish them with your supreme plan and cards. The mirror is a long drawn out battle but the game is decided 99% of the times when one player untaps with Counterbalance in play.

Edit: To use your own list as an example. I would sideboard like this for the mirror.
-1 CJ -4 Terminus -4 Swords to plowshars -1 plains
+3 flusterstorm +3 clique +3 blasts +1 Counterspell

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I think the point is also that while CJ and EE aren't the best possible cards in the mirror, I personally prefer them to Entreat. I almost never keep ETA post board, and very occasionally as a 1 off

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...n-Control.html

Anyone read Karsten Kotter's take on Miracles?

He basically went -2 Snapcaster, -1 Jace, -1 Ponder, +2 Dig through Time, +1 Counterspell +1 Karakas. (and -1 fetch +1 island).

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He got one thing right, that's the 21 lands + Karakas. He took the Reid Duke build and Ein's build, mixed them and tried to find a middle ground.

If you sb-out CJ and Entreat in the miracles mirror, then proceed to lose the counter war such that your opponent resolves a CB, you might as well concede on the spot.

Hello,

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If you sb-out CJ and Entreat in the miracles mirror, then proceed to lose the counter war such that your opponent resolves a CB, you might as well concede on the spot.

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You are right in seeing the problem with the resolved CB. But Entreat is not helpfull in preventing this. So what you do is basicly try to ensure to win the Counterwar with your addtional Sideboard cards and therefore board out the Entreat because he is not part of this plan.

The reasoning for this is that Entreat puts you in a poistion you don´t want. Because if you draw it you either can trigger it or not. If you don´t you have a dead card in your hand and need a Brainstorm or Jace to resolve to change this.
If you trigger it 2 things can happen either it resolves or not.
The problem here is that you have to commit atleast 3 mana to make Entreat relevant. This maybe get it out of Cb range but that doesn´t count for your other Counterspells.
So it is highly possible that it wil not resolve in the mirror because your opponent actually boarded in more stack interaction than you did.
And even if it resolves you over commitement in Mana will lead to a pefect EE opportunity to blow all your tokens up.

Yes you could argue that you have Top and can setup the Entreat for an EOT cast but if you actually can keep you top than you are allready on the path to the win so
Entreat is a win more in this matchup but not a real win condition.

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

Hello,


You are right in seeing the problem with the resolved CB. But Entreat is not helpfull in preventing this. So what you do is basicly try to ensure to win the Counterwar with your addtional Sideboard cards and therefore board out the Entreat because he is not part of this plan.

The reasoning for this is that Entreat puts you in a poistion you don´t want. Because if you draw it you either can trigger it or not. If you don´t you have a dead card in your hand and need a Brainstorm or Jace to resolve to change this.
If you trigger it 2 things can happen either it resolves or not.
The problem here is that you have to commit atleast 3 mana to make Entreat relevant. This maybe get it out of Cb range but that doesn´t count for your other Counterspells.
So it is highly possible that it wil not resolve in the mirror because your opponent actually boarded in more stack interaction than you did.
And even if it resolves you over commitement in Mana will lead to a pefect EE opportunity to blow all your tokens up.

Yes you could argue that you have Top and can setup the Entreat for an EOT cast but if you actually can keep you top than you are allready on the path to the win so
Entreat is a win more in this matchup but not a real win condition.

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Sure Entreat could be stuck in your hand, sure Entreat could get countered, sure EE could blow up Angel tokens. These kind of hypothetical what-ifs are pointless. I'm not discussing prevention. That's not what this is about.

Think about that kind of logic, just because your opponent SB-in more counters, does that mean you should not try to resolve a CB? Oh, because my opponent might have an answer at the exact moment/turn when I Entreat, therefore I should not run it. What kind of ridiculous attempt of justification is that?

I am saying, in the scenario where your opponent and you both have SDT in play, then your opponent resolves a CB after you two both fought a counter war. Now, in order to overcome that CB, one way to fight it is to just Entreat. This is to force your opponent to show you that he must have an non-cb, non-red blast answer. Newsflash, if your opponent doesn't have answer right then and there for your win-con, you might just win that game despite your opponent has CB-T in play.

Hello,

Quote:

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I am saying, in the scenario where your opponent and you both have SDT in play, then your opponent resolves a CB after you two both fought a counter war. Now, in order to overcome that CB, one way to fight it is to just Entreat. This is to force your opponent to show you that he must have an non-cb, non-red blast answer. Newsflash, if your opponent doesn't have answer right then and there for your win-con, you might just win that game despite your opponent has CB-T in play.

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Thanks for this because you know what concider your own argument.

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These kind of hypothetical what-ifs are pointless.

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Because you actually described a what fi siuations there.

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Think about that kind of logic, just because your opponent SB-in more counters, does that mean you should not try to resolve a CB? Oh, because my opponent might have an answer at the exact moment/turn when I Entreat, therefore I should not run it. What kind of ridiculous attempt of justification is that?

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The same you used when you discribed your what if Siuation just from the opposite of the table. Because you said if he has no answer I win and I said if he has an answer I lose.

So you actually have no argument to leave it in the deck. So thanky for basicly saing nothing relevant fot this discussion.

But my experience in the Mirror today says that I want to leave them in because they just give me 1 more Wincon against the other deck. But this only counts for the 2
Jace 3 Dig list were Entreat is not really a dead card at any point of the Game.

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

Hello,


The same you used when you discribed your what if Siuation just from the opposite of the table. Because you said if he has no answer I win and I said if he has an answer I lose.

But my experience in the Mirror today says that I want to leave them in because they just give me 1 more Wincon against the other deck. But this only counts for the 2
Jace 3 Dig list were Entreat is not really a dead card at any point of the Game.

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How does that even make sense? If he has answer, you didn't lose, you are exactly where you were. You just have to overcome CB-T via other ways. Say opponent's CB-T resolved, couple turns later you see the Red Blast you SB-in in your Top 3, instead of the Entreat you SB-out. That's what you wanted and you wish that Red Blast wasn't a dead card.

You don't get to decide what's relevant and what's irrelevant, that's not what miracles discussion is about.

Hey guys!
I'm relatively new to this Site and to miracles,been playing it for about 2 months now.
I just wanted to ask for your opinions on the new card, released in dragons of tarkir named Myth realized.
http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/mythrealized.html

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Originally Posted by Snoiz

Hey guys!
I'm relatively new to this Site and to miracles,been playing it for about 2 months now.
I just wanted to ask for your opinions on the new card, released in dragons of tarkir named Myth realized.
http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/mythrealized.html

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It dies to Decay and Swords, but you can grow it out of bolt range. It's cheap and something you can dump mana into EoT in the late game. I might test it in the SB.

That card just seems a milion times worse than Entreat or even Baneslayer Angel. Heck, I would probably play Mastery of the Unseen over this, because Mastery at least grows vertically and somewhat clears top.

It's better in a UWR Delver style deck. We cast way less Spells than those kinds of decks, and can often go multiple turns and only grow it once.

If for some reason you want that type of thing, play Luminarch Ascension. You don't need it at all though.

Concur with YamiJoey. We don't cast too many spells at a time to make up for the fact that this does literally nothing when it hits the board. Sure Counterbalance does nothing when it hits the board as well but that card is very integral to our strategy so it gets a pass in that respect. I think it best this might have potential sideboard applications, but only for particular metagame conditions. Either way the card doesn't really strike me as particularly good for this deck at least.

I've been thinking about the shardless MU lately. People tend to say it's a bad MU but I think it's 60-40 at worst pre-board and maybe like 55-45 at worst postboard in their favor. It's certainly not as bad as eldrazi post or Goblins. Often their clock is so slow that if they have an average draw I feel like I can beat them as long as I play tightly. Anyways, one part of it I've been thinking about is sideboarding. Some people have claimed that it's actually better to keep counterbalance in rather than auto-side it out. It seems like that would imply going on a overload-abrupt-decay plan. I've been doing fine with the no-good-abrupt-decay-target plan, but want to test the overload-abrupt-decay plan more. How would you side board to implement the latter plan? I'm currently playing Ein's most recent list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15858&iddeck=118084) -1 Jace, +1 Dig.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

If for some reason you want that type of thi9ng, play Luminarch Ascension. You don't need it at all though.

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Lol I was thinking the same thing. A friend has recommended it to me as a mirror breaker, but I consider myself good enough to not have play such a narrow card, though I might try it at my LGS at some point for the lolz.

I think it's funny that people hate Entreat in the mirror, especially when they want to run something like Explosives or Judgment. I can see an argument for extra Flusterstorms over Entreat, since it can be used offensively, but Entreat is the best defensive card in your entire deck. The mirror is won/lost by Counterbalance lock an/or resolved Jace. Entreat ignores both these things. Not to mention keeps you out the draw bracket when playing the slowest matchup in Legacy. I honestly think you guys are just miming Einherjer on this one...

Looking for some help on my 15th sideboard card. Running most Lossett's list:

Code:

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4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Karakas
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Pierce
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear/Tear
1 Entreat the Angels

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The maindeck Misdirection is because I don't have a fourth FoW yet, so eventually that would be a 4th main FoW and Misdirection goes to sideboard. For now, need some help on that 15th card for board. Local meta is a lot of Miracles, Burn, and Delver. One guy is on ANT, one on Shardless BUG, and one on D&T.

Leaning toward Engineered Explosives.

EE seems fine. If burn is prevelant in your meta, perhaps chill? Sulfur elemental is reasonable if there is a lot of D&T. Given that your meta is fair decks, you may not need three cliques main. You have some room to experiment.

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Originally Posted by TheShepherd

EE seems fine. If burn is prevelant in your meta, perhaps chill? Sulfur elemental is reasonable if there is a lot of D&T. Given that your meta is fair decks, you may not need three cliques main. You have some room to experiment.

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Blue SB cards against Red deck are magnets for Red Blasts.

Kor Firewalker, problem solved. We have historical evidence to back it up when everyone was running UR delver + TC.

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Originally Posted by TheShepherd

EE seems fine. If burn is prevelant in your meta, perhaps chill? Sulfur elemental is reasonable if there is a lot of D&T. Given that your meta is fair decks, you may not need three cliques main. You have some room to experiment.

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That's a great point about Cliques, but I also find them to be extremely useful to dump a dead card from my hand and get a card deeper even if i'm not trying to disrupt something the opponent is doing. And 3 damage is a nice clock.

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Originally Posted by KZhang

I think the point is also that while CJ and EE aren't the best possible cards in the mirror, I personally prefer them to Entreat. I almost never keep ETA post board, and very occasionally as a 1 off

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Well that's completely wrong. You don't go up to three Entreat in the mirror or anything, but so many mirror matches are decided by who can find their Entreat first. Siding out my only way to win vs. a Counterbalance doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

Edit: bold

I think Izzet Staticaster is better than Sulfur Elemental because of utility in a couple other places, like Elves, and largely doing the same thing against DnT. (Okay sure, you lose out against double mother.)

Hello,

I also will keep ETA in my deck post Sideboard. I lost a mirro because I boarded them out and did not had any win Condition left to finish my opponent.
For that reason I will know play the 2 Entreats post Sideboard to evade giving up a game I only have to end.

Why do people suggest any cards other than Circle of Protection: Red for the burn match up. Every other card is so inefficient when compared to it, when Treasure Cruise was legal I ran one in my board and never lost a game when it resolved.

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Originally Posted by Zllig

Why do people suggest any cards other than Circle of Protection: Red for the burn match up. Every other card is so inefficient when compared to it, when Treasure Cruise was legal I ran one in my board and never lost a game when it resolved.

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Because you don't play narrow silver-bullet sideboard cards for matchups where you are already favored*. If burn is a real problem for your meta, there are very versatile answers that are good in other places:

2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull
Spell Pierce
Hydroblast
Path to Exile

All of those have applications against the DTBs.

*In the event that we're not favored or testing reveals it to be so, we still have a strong _plan_ against them, so we still just need cards that augment that plan / ensure we live to put it into place.

Hello,
does anyone have experience with the matchup vs Grixis Landstill? I tested quite a few preboard games against the deck and the matchup seemed attrocious (not 12-post levels of attrocious but bad nonetheless). Postboard it probably gets better but I was wondering if there is a way to be able to fight the preboard games effectively. The only thing that I found that kind of works is entreating with force backup after he slammed a Jace, but that can easily go south if he is prepared. I am playing a pretty classic 4 Ponder build.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Well that's completely wrong. You don't go up to three Entreat in the mirror or anything, but so many mirror matches are decided by who can find their Entreat first. Siding out my only way to win vs. a Counterbalance doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

Edit: bold

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I win the majority of my mirror games with clique, jace or keranos. Sure, ETA steals games every now and then, but its often very clunky. They are a bad topdeck, and its always horrible to see in your opening.

For those of you who do keep in entreat, is the reason because its a hail mary type of out? Even when opp lands a countertop and jace, it can still potentially win you the game?

Hello,

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I win the majority of my mirror games with clique, jace or keranos. Sure, ETA steals games every now and then, but its often very clunky. They are a bad topdeck, and its always horrible to see in your opening.

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I don´t see this. With the current Cab Version of the Deck I rarely have problems with entreat in my hand. I also want an Entreat because the Dig can find me a Brianstorm or jace to set it up and kill you in 1 turn.
In comparrsion to this you can´t use clique since the opposing Karakas is dealing with her and Keranos is a clock with can be to slow.
So the reason for me to keep it in is the fact that is the fastest clock you cna wish for in the late game and that is were most mirrors end up.

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Originally Posted by KZhang

I win the majority of my mirror games with clique, jace or keranos. Sure, ETA steals games every now and then, but its often very clunky. They are a bad topdeck, and its always horrible to see in your opening.

For those of you who do keep in entreat, is the reason because its a hail mary type of out? Even when opp lands a countertop and jace, it can still potentially win you the game?

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I don't want to see Entreat in my opening hand. I also don't want to see Judgment or Disenchant. Honestly, Flusterstorm is either basically a bad Dispel that has a high fail rate. I don't like cards that are useless on their own and have to be stacked on top of other cards in your hand in specific scenarios. Entreat is slightly worse than these cards early game, but late game it's the best threat in Legacy, while those are either stone-cold dead or terrible answers to Counterbalance/Jace.

Miracles is more a prison deck than a traditional Control deck, but having access to a nigh uncounterable, instant speed, lategame bomb should be a no-brainer in the mirror. It's definitely not essential, but it's better than filler like Flusterstorm or EE, which just makes the cut since you have 8 removal spells to cut. I didn't run Ætherling in Standard, but that card didn't have flash and evade most all counterspells. It also couldn't just 1-shot your opponent, and they could still win through it. Even Entreat for 1 in the mirror is likely good enough.

I've always liked Entreat as a one-of in the mirror. Cipher has a great point, that a single angel can probably get there. The inherent problem with Keranos in the mirror is the fact that a lot of the mirror revolves around interacting with Jace, either casting it or making sure that it doesn't land. This means that all of the countermagic/removal that can fight the walker will be brought in, and, as Cipher mentioned, the 8 core removal spells (4 swords / 4 terminus) come out. What about 3 of these are replaced with are cheap and efficent anti-blue countermagic in the form of Red Elemental Blast type effects. Keranos is blue, of course, and he gets swallowed by the same effect that can counter a Jace, vindicate a clique, etc, making it a lot harder to actually push one through. On the contrary, an Entreat cannot be blasted, and the counterspells that hit it (save perhaps flusterstorm) can be defended against with opposing blast effects. A single angel represent a faster clock than keranos by 2 turns (given an opponent at 20 life), and your opponent will be hard pressed to remove it, as doing so will require either an EE, a Council's Judgement, a Jace, or an opposing Entreated angel. I will concede to the fact that Keranos is harder to remove once resolved, but I think that Jace is just as good at winning the game once you have your opponent locked out.

The mirror isn't about Entreat the Angels, it's about CounterTop and Jace, but I think the temptation of an "I Win" button is far too great.

i've seen a list like this pop on modo a few times now, splashing green for Loam, Sylvan, and sideboard K Grips. any thoughts? the Grips seem like a real out to a resolved CB in the mirror, and Loam + sideboard Wasteland are attractive for some of our tougher matchups (Lands, 12 Post, Shardless), though I'd want another Wasteland if I was sleeving this up. though i don't think i could stomach giving up red blasts.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/272535#paper

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Originally Posted by exallium

I've always liked Entreat as a one-of in the mirror. Cipher has a great point, that a single angel can probably get there. The inherent problem with Keranos in the mirror is the fact that a lot of the mirror revolves around interacting with Jace, either casting it or making sure that it doesn't land. This means that all of the countermagic/removal that can fight the walker will be brought in, and, as Cipher mentioned, the 8 core removal spells (4 swords / 4 terminus) come out. What about 3 of these are replaced with are cheap and efficent anti-blue countermagic in the form of Red Elemental Blast type effects. Keranos is blue, of course, and he gets swallowed by the same effect that can counter a Jace, vindicate a clique, etc, making it a lot harder to actually push one through. On the contrary, an Entreat cannot be blasted, and the counterspells that hit it (save perhaps flusterstorm) can be defended against with opposing blast effects. A single angel represent a faster clock than keranos by 2 turns (given an opponent at 20 life), and your opponent will be hard pressed to remove it, as doing so will require either an EE, a Council's Judgement, a Jace, or an opposing Entreated angel. I will concede to the fact that Keranos is harder to remove once resolved, but I think that Jace is just as good at winning the game once you have your opponent locked out.

The mirror isn't about Entreat the Angels, it's about CounterTop and Jace, but I think the temptation of an "I Win" button is far too great.

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I agree but I also disagree (yay for forums!). The mirror is not about Jace anymore. A couple of years ago we had a legend rule that basicly translated into "if you resolve jace first you win the game". Resolving Jace first atleast gave you a brainstorm and when your opponent tapped out just to remove it you basicly won. Why would you want to bring Council's Judgment again? It's basicly the same thing (for one mana less!) as the old legend rule except for the fact that the card is TERRIBLE if your opponent has not first resolved either CB or Jace. Which is pretty much game over to begin with. Back then we also did not splash red for blasts, which is a huge upgrade in fighting Jace. The answers are super-efficient so trying to brute force a bomb is no longer a good plan. Let me say this once more... If you initiate a counter-war during your turn you will likely lose the game. If you play correctly the games will go long and they will result in counter-wars. Barring some unrealistic opener with top->cb->fow->blindflip we are in for a loooong grind. This is also why flusterstorm is nice. It stops an early Ponder, it wins the counterwar (even if opponent has cb), it pitches to force and it stops entreat the angels. I am still not saying Entreat is good but it's the ONLY card that wins on the spot if you need to go over the top (facing cb+jace for example). Compare it to keranos... it's not even close.
(I still like Keranos vs Shardless and I pioneered it in my sideboard for that very purpose last year. It's not good in the mirror though, even if it's sometimes better than the other options.

Imagine this board; Opponent cb+top 5 lands and you have Jace +5 lands. Depending on the lists we can pretty much decide who is ahead in this spot. I would prefer cb+top but with Jace you atleast have a shot with Entreat in the deck, just brainstorm and sculpt your hand. What if you have top and your opponent has CB+Jace? You are most likely dead but you atleast have a shot with Entreat. Compare Entreat the Angels to Council's Judgment (or EE/Weartear) in these scenarios. Both are there for scenarios when you are falling behind. Once (and IF) CJ resolves (which I talked about in my previous post) you are often ON PAR and definitly not winning the game. What if your opponent has multiple cb+top? If you identify what the game is about in time you can adjust the game plan around Entreat the Angels instead. It's a much better plan than to fight the CB war once it hits play (which with my approach is less likely to begin with, having more counterspells and an unhealthy love for Spell Snare). Ironicly the Entreat plan becomes worse once people start playing it in postboard games together with flusterstorms... but that's another topic. Anyway, I would prefer not to play cj/weartear/ee, flusterstorm or entreat the angels but since we have so many bad cards to cut I would rank them flusterstrom->entreat->cj/weartear/ee (reactive narrow answers to cards in play, more or less).

There's also another huge factor to why you want Entreat the Angels in the mirror. Time.
I have triplequed with this deck not going to time on modo but that's with a chess-clock and no shuffling. In a real-life tournament with 5 extra turns you can play super-conservative, allways brainstorming with jace and building up for a 100% safe win with entreat at the last possible moment, not having to worry about your opponent's pace at all. I am a strong beliver in using Jace to brainstorm A LOT. Having acces to Entreat and a hand full of force of wills makes the route to victory less bumpy than with Jace fatesealing to 11 and getting REB'ed. It would take less than 2 minutes using a chess clock to finish an opponent with snapcaster beatdown but in real life your opponent would sometimes prefer the draw...

All this hate about CJ comes back to deckbuilding. With 4 STP and 4 Terminus beeing a must vs creature decks I don't think we can afford to Council's Judgment (or other clunkers) in the maindeck. A lot of games in legacy are decided on the stack (combo, control) or by tempo (delver strategies). CJ is terrible in those spots. It's still a great card vs the other spectrum of Legacy (MUD, Shardless, Maverick etc) and it sure is awesome in fighting various sideboard cards (Null rod, choke) which Is why I prefer it as a one-of in the sideboard. Move it there and make room for a Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique or even Spell Snare and you will have a much smoother deck. Having acces to a 1of CJ to be able to remove a Sneak Attack on the back of DTT sounds cool but it's just a false illusion. I like CJ more in the 4-ponder build but I still don't like it enough. Please convince med with a list of cards which I would rather answer with CJ than with a counterspell, a snapcaster mage or a vendilion clique. Liliana of the veil, batterskull and true-name nemesis are all fine, but is it worth it? How often do you get excited for having CJ in your hand?

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Originally Posted by presquepartout

i've seen a list like this pop on modo a few times now, splashing green for Loam, Sylvan, and sideboard K Grips. any thoughts? the Grips seem like a real out to a resolved CB in the mirror, and Loam + sideboard Wasteland are attractive for some of our tougher matchups (Lands, 12 Post, Shardless), though I'd want another Wasteland if I was sleeving this up. though i don't think i could stomach giving up red blasts.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/272535#paper

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REB >> anything Green, nuff said.
I wouldn't even know where to start..

what's everyone's opinion on running an elsepth knight errant in the side board. she comes in all the same spots as the 3rd entreat or a keranos would come in (grindy MU's like BUG and stoneblade)but she is a trump in the mirror. The mirror relies so much on jace, and elsepth is the jace killer. Not to mention she is another 4 drop to counter jace with a counterbalance and she cannot get red blasted like jace.

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Originally Posted by eyeownyu

what's everyone's opinion on running an elsepth knight errant in the side board. she comes in all the same spots as the 3rd entreat or a keranos would come in (grindy MU's like BUG and stoneblade)but she is a trump in the mirror. The mirror relies so much on jace, and elsepth is the jace killer. Not to mention she is another 4 drop to counter jace with a counterbalance and she cannot get red blasted like jace.

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<3 Elspeth. I run a humility in my local meta (and online, it turns out) which she works very well with. In the mirror she is very hard to deal with, and has gotten me concessions before (5 minutes ago in fact.)

Actually, many people, mostly Europeans, are dropping the 3rd Entreat in the SB.

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/196456 This Luis guy in France, for example.

Also the other famous European Miracles player Angelo is doing the same: https://www.facebook.com/JKEntertain...40377802660761

Angelo's list is particularly interesting. It appears that he swapped the Counterspell in the SB slot with the MD 4th FoW.

I really like the 3 Snaps + 3 Clique setup, however you want to customize it in your 75.

Hey guys new Miracles player here (been on it for a few months), I was wondering how do I deal with UB(r) Tezz? There's a guy that plays it in my local meta and I don't know what I should worry and not worry about.

Thanks for all your constant brainstorming to keep Miracles a DTB!

Tezz is a fast (rampy), permanent based deck, with a "primary" win con that relies on the GY (thopter sword). It's a very tough matchup for Miracles, due to having such an abundance of permanents that we have a very difficult time interacting with, in the form of Planeswalkers (my list ran 9) and lots of non-creature artifacts (thopter/sword, chalice, mana rocks).

A few things that can normally distrupt them are as follows: Pithing Needle naming Thopter Foundry, red blasts to counter Foundries, transmute, and walkers, izzet staticaster, disenchant / wear // tear to deal with chalice and other problematic artifacts. It's probably more realistic to try to fight them on the stack then on the board, when it comes down to it. Generally their countermagic consists of a set of Chalice of the Void and a set of Force of Will. Use your forces very sparingly, and only on things that would otherwise lose you the game. Note that Relic is not going to stop thopter sword, as they can just sac a manarock in response to the activation, and that they'll normally have Helm in the board somewhere to abuse people who bring in rest in peace.

It's a bad matchup, but a very interesting one with a lot of interactive play (save them just T1'ing a chalice on 1, which is a very real possibility).

Check out Ondřej Stráský streaming Miracles:

http://www.twitch.tv/teamwellplayed

Greetings