[Deck] Affinity

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Originally Posted by Marke

Merfolk needs 3 lords in play to comfortably bash past myr enforcer, that's usually not happening all too soon and before that it stops them cold. Enforcer is also really easy to get into play through a counterbalance or daze something champion does not.

Champion just completely sucks on it's own unless it is in a 2 card combo with plating. Even then you are unlikely to attack before turn 4 and if you want to do that you usually need to play champion before plating in which case plating just gets countered. The plating is still a easy target for qasali pridemage etc and a etched champion itself can easily be raced, it doesn't even kill many creatures when blocking...
Sure a untargetable, unblockable target for plating would have been nice but not at 3 mana (which is alot for affinity) and with almost no influence the turn it comes into play... If affinity really needed such a guy it would have just played silhana ledgewalker which is just better...

Lots of problems you are mentioning will still haunt affinity and is part of the reason why affinity is nowhere near tier 1/2 in legacy. Etched champion does nothing to help this really. So far the only card that helps affinity alot from SoM is mox opal, memnite will be ok as well but a minor upgrade.

Go ahead and test it and you will find out in a few games what I just told you, etched champion sucks balls.


As for memnite vs phyrexian walker, memnite has 1 power which is a world of difference as it at least gets to bash against all the decks that don't care about creature on creature combat, something walker never did. Memnite isn't fantastic and might not even last in the new affinity but it sure is better then walker.

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Don't really play affinity or 1.5 for that matter to much anymore, but a few more questions. You argue that fish needs more lords to swing past enforcer and therefore is a pro for enforcer. The way I see it though, they can never swing past champion once metalcraft is activated. I'll take an untargetable and unblockable 2/2 anyday and in any format. ]

Second, Your claim is that the combo of champion + plating is rather "whack" to paraphrase. It's slow, dies to artifact removal etc etc. The problem I see is that plating will die regardless of what creature it is attatched to. I'd just rather have a creature that doesn't die to the same removal that kills plating. Pridemage nukes both plating and enforcer last time I check, which is a good way to end up in frown town.

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Originally Posted by Marke

Merfolk needs 3 lords in play to comfortably bash past myr enforcer, that's usually not happening all too soon and before that it stops them cold. Enforcer is also really easy to get into play through a counterbalance or daze something champion does not.

Champion just completely sucks on it's own unless it is in a 2 card combo with plating. Even then you are unlikely to attack before turn 4 and if you want to do that you usually need to play champion before plating in which case plating just gets countered. The plating is still a easy target for qasali pridemage etc and a etched champion itself can easily be raced, it doesn't even kill many creatures when blocking...
Sure a untargetable, unblockable target for plating would have been nice but not at 3 mana (which is alot for affinity) and with almost no influence the turn it comes into play... If affinity really needed such a guy it would have just played silhana ledgewalker which is just better.

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You forget that it also combos with Ravager. Sacrifice your board except for two permanents that they are most likely not able to kill and just go to his face, unblockable, untargetable. No need to play around Swords, no need to draw Ornithopter for evasion.

Also it is a great blocker. Being the Aggressor in most matchups doesn't mean that blocking is not needed. It is still very useful when you face for example a big Knight of the Reliquary or Goyf that just eats your creatures by lethal attacking every turn while you wait for some way to kill him like Disciple or Plating.

A question.... Riddlesmith, does it worth a slot? Play an artifact, draw a card, discard a land/springleaf/opal sounds good.

Don't forget that Etched Champion merely trades with defensive (or offensive) manlands. That includes Mutavault, the popular Mefolk accessory. Also, it being kind of good against spot removal with ravager in play is a pretty moot point since Ravager typically requires multiple sword/edict effects or mass removal to be dealt with anyway as long as you can shuffle the counters around to much any creature.

Riddlesmith spontaneously feels pretty eh overall; it isn't big, it isn't an artifact and the deck has no way of abusing the graveyard and hence use it for anything but card parity.

@Mikeleroi: Not in an Aggro shell, I'm afraid. Too slow, bad topdeck, too fragile. Also, you already have Thoughtcast as a draw spell.

@Infinitum: True, it can't deal with manlands, but it can deal with pretty much everything else. Expecially against Merfolk's horde of blue fatties. About Ravager: it can be chump-blocked by an Elspeth token or, well, anything else. Even if it dies, it passes its counters to other removable threats. Once those counters land on an Etched Champion, in 90% of the cases you can go for the win undisturbed. This is the biggest difference between putting counters on a random Ornithopter and putting them on a guy with protection from colors. Also, this guy is good by himself both as an attacker (it still passes through most defenses) as well as a defender (Legacy's full of fatties).

I can't STAND to see people are still defending etched champion. I know I'm gonna sound like a complete ass now but it's just too obvious the card stinks. 3 is just alot for affinity and unblockable and untargettable are only important attributes if the creature that has those ability is actually scary in itself....
90% of the time people won't care about the etched champion... Either they are playing a comboish or controllish deck where it's just a overcosted 2/2 dud on it's own and when they do play creatures they can attack into a 2/2 comfortably most of the time..
I didn't even realise the fact that mishra's factory, mutavault, jitte or other colorless cards completely trump it as well.

Also with ravager you can't go for the all-in either as you need to let 2 to 3 artifacts besides himself live to be any sure he isn't just blocked or killed.

You just have to be completely unfamiliar with legacy or this deck to think the card is worth it at all...

Anyway I'll leave it at that. No point in this thread anyways...

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Originally Posted by Marke

I can't STAND to see people are still defending etched champion. I know I'm gonna sound like a complete ass now but it's just too obvious the card stinks. 3 is just alot for affinity and unblockable and untargettable are only important attributes if the creature that has those ability is actually scary in itself....
90% of the time people won't care about the etched champion... Either they are playing a comboish or controllish deck where it's just a overcosted 2/2 dud on it's own and when they do play creatures they can attack into a 2/2 comfortably most of the time..
I didn't even realise the fact that mishra's factory, mutavault, jitte or other colorless cards completely trump it as well.

Also with ravager you can't go for the all-in either as you need to let 2 to 3 artifacts besides himself live to be any sure he isn't just blocked or killed.

You just have to be completely unfamiliar with legacy or this deck to think the card is worth it at all...

Anyway I'll leave it at that. No point in this thread anyways...

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1) I don't see how a vanilla 4/4 could pose a bigger threat. And Enforcer still comes into play at turn 2 (if you're VERY lucky) or 3, just like Champion. Not to mention the fact that it can be chumpblocked into oblivion by everything. People playing Affinity in Extended last years took it off and played Tarmogoyf, just because it was bigger and, well, a better beater. Just sayin'.

2) You don't HAVE to go all-in by saccing everything with Ravager. But even if it "only" has 4 counters on it, Champion becomes a 6/6 unblockable, untargettable guy. Your opponent better have mass removal or manlands, or else it could hurt a lot.

3) There are different ways of explaining your point of view. Just saying a card is bullshit without proving others wrong and then ragequitting (basically telling everyone "defending" Etched Champion an unthinking idiot) is not that effective. It's not an insult, it's just a suggestion to keep discussions in a forum on a civil level. I'm not a saint (doubt anyone is), but still I'd rather talk in a constructive way with someone that think differently than just having the conversation cut off this way. I hope you'll reconsider your decision and discuss about the potential of this card toghether. Also because I love this deck, and can't wait to rebuild it.

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Originally Posted by Bigface

1) I don't see how a vanilla 4/4 could pose a bigger threat. And Enforcer still comes into play at turn 2 (if you're VERY lucky) or 3, just like Champion. Not to mention the fact that it can be chumpblocked into oblivion by everything. People playing Affinity in Extended last years took it off and played Tarmogoyf, just because it was bigger and, well, a better beater. Just sayin'.

2) You don't HAVE to go all-in by saccing everything with Ravager. But even if it "only" has 4 counters on it, Champion becomes a 6/6 unblockable, untargettable guy. Your opponent better have mass removal or manlands, or else it could hurt a lot.

3) There are different ways of explaining your point of view. Just saying a card is bullshit without proving others wrong and then ragequitting (basically telling everyone "defending" Etched Champion an unthinking idiot) is not that effective. It's not an insult, it's just a suggestion to keep discussions in a forum on a civil level. I'm not a saint (doubt anyone is), but still I'd rather talk in a constructive way with someone that think differently than just having the conversation cut off this way. I hope you'll reconsider your decision and discuss about the potential of this card toghether. Also because I love this deck, and can't wait to rebuild it.

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1) Preboard I don't really consider Champion better than Enforcer. Especially with Memnite and Opal Enforcer will be 4/4 for free while Champion is 2/2 for 3. Champions ability won't help against each deck, especially Combo and Control won't really care about it. So for me Champion is a good sideboard option againsta ggro decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. All of those decks can't really get around a blocking Champion and as soon as you can pump the champion with Plating or Ravager, they can't prevent it from killing them.

2) As I said Control decks with Manlands and Mass removal don't really fear Champion (same for combo decks). Therefore it's better off in the sideboard imo.

3) I agree here. This is not the right way to communicate in a forum. We are debating about the possible merits of Champion for Affinity, so someone who just claims that a card is bad (even though the card hasn't even been released yet) doesn't do it right. Against 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, 5/5 Merfolk Lords (who try to tap your blockers with rejeerey) and those tons of spot removal most Aggro decks pack nowadays, Champion is STRICTLY BETTER than any other Artifact creature in Affinity. I don't claim that it will make each list as a four of but at least for people who try to compete in aggro heavy metas, Champion is the way to go. Period.

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Originally Posted by raudo

Have you tested without Disciple of the Vault? I have run a deck without him and it is more explosive. He might be even a win-more card? If you don't agree, give it a test at least.

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As heretical as it sounds taking Disciple out of Affinity was the best change I ever made to the deck.

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Originally Posted by Gedca

As heretical as it sounds taking Disciple out of Affinity was the best change I ever made to the deck.

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how does it look like without disciples? :D

anyway, how do you people like infiltration lens? but eh, blocking isn't too common in legacy though..

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8...eksmvoefen.jpg

Considering how difficult it is to get a Master of Etherium or a Cranial Plating binded, non-flier through, I feel like 'fixed skullclamp' was tailormade for affinity. I definitely am going to try playtesting a pair of these.

Pro: Generates CA when creature is blocked.

Cons: In many, many cases you can kiss your creature goodbye.

I don't know. I guess it depends on which creature is blocked.

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Originally Posted by Bigface

Pro: Generates CA when creature is blocked.

Cons: In many, many cases you can kiss your creature goodbye.

I don't know. I guess it depends on which creature is blocked.

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We could play Goyf. If master or goyf are wearing this thing, opponents will think thrice whether they block or not.

Also, this might be awesome in the more Sligh-esque versions.

A bad card. Neurok Hoversail has not been been played and the only downside that card has is that equipping costs one more. But on the other hand the opponent can't choose to block to survive another turn so I think they are about equally strong.

I'm tempted to try and fit it into 6 lackey goblins...but it's probably not worth it...

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Originally Posted by kinda

I'm tempted to try and fit it into 6 lackey goblins...but it's probably not worth it...

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Wrong Vial thread I guess :)

Anyway, NO GOYF. I know, it's big, it's bad, it's cheap etc. But it hurts my soul to see people playing Tarmogoyf in Affinity. You already have beaters, and they're colorless artifact. Also Goyf forces 4-color builds (URbg), and without fetches and a very fragile manabase that's really, really bad.

If you are having trouble getting your big guys to deal damage because they are chump-blocked, just play Berserk. Winning the game outright is better than drawing two cards.

On another note, the complete spoiler is up for Scars of Mirrodin, and it is a disappointment for Vial Affinity in Legacy. The only cards that might make the deck were spoiled early. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't look like any of the late additions will make the cut. I was hoping that the metalcraft mechanic would produce more playable cards than it did.

Memnite is a slight upgrade from Worker. Mox Opal is good enough to play, but it is debatable as to how many. Cards like Etched Champion and Galvanic Blast could make the cut, but there is no consensus on this. Ultimately, Vial Affinity got slightly better, but no nearly good enough to make it a "deck to watch" in Legacy. In fact, Master of Etherium from Shards of Alara probably helped this deck more than everything from Scars of Mirrodin combined, and Master was not enough to put the deck over the top. We'll have to see if the deck gets some help from the other two sets in 2011 before this deck can challenge Goblins or Zoo as an aggro deck in this format. Based on what I've seen from Scars, I am not optimistic.

Vedalken Certarch U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard Common
Metalcraft - {T}: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

That seems like an excellent creature. Being able to Rishadan Port your opponent's land on your second turn is pretty strong and later he taps away Goyf and his friends. Imo worth testing.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Vedalken Certarch U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard Common
Metalcraft - {T}: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

That seems like an excellent creature. Being able to Rishadan Port your opponent's land on your second turn is pretty strong and later he taps away Goyf and his friends. Imo worth testing.

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The card itself is not too bad. Goldmeadow Harrier gets played in Death and Taxes, and it costs a mana to activate its ability and can only tap creatures (although it also only costs 1). The problems with this card in Affinity are that 1) it is not an artifact and 2) it is a card that fits better in mid-range decks. Affinity usually wants to be a very aggressive aggo deck. Disciple is ok as a non-artifact creature because it fits into this theme and can win you the game in a hurry under the right circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Justin

The card itself is not too bad. Goldmeadow Harrier gets played in Death and Taxes, and it costs a mana to activate its ability and can only tap creatures (although it also only costs 1). The problems with this card in Affinity are that 1) it is not an artifact and 2) it is a card that fits better in mid-range decks. Affinity usually wants to be a very aggressive aggo deck. Disciple is ok as a non-artifact creature because it fits into this theme and can win you the game in a hurry under the right circumstances.

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The question, whether we can afford to follow our all-in route, remains.

I am convinced that oldschool Ravager+Affinity doesn't cut it anymore. We need something else, we are worse than Goblins when it comes to CA and explosive draws and we have worse cards than Zoo.
However, we have evasive creatures at our disposal and can run what I'd call mildly broken stuff.

I'm toying around with Thopter Foundry, including Goyf, excluding Goyf, including Disciple, excluding Disciple...
Steel Overseer always seems to break my board in half and gives huge (as in, tumor-driven) headaches to my opponents.

What I like about Overseer is, that even with only 1 activation and 2-3 creatures on the board, the value you gain is massive.
Foundry + Overseer usually seals the deal, 2-4 3/3 evasive creatures are very good at ending the game.
Etched Champion looks really, really busted with Plating, but I'm undecided whether that's needed.

And on top of that, we have that fixed Skullclamp that might actually make the cut.

To be honest, clinging to proven cards in this deck feels like a mistake atm. We received so many new toys and should be open to new stuff and experiment.