Printable View
3 Tarmogoyf can't be right. Never.
With Glen Elendra (which can be really good depending on the metagame), I would keep 1 Witness main.
So:
-1 RWM (Go to SB)
-1 Glen
+1 Goyf
+1 Witness
I would also cut daze or vial, because of the lack of creature you probably face with that much non-creature spells.
And would add
+1 Wonder
+1 Qasali
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 2nd Glen or RWM, depending on the metagame.
That's just my 2 cents.
P-M
Yes. Yes it can. Tarmogoyf is simply a big beater, and he's generally only a size up from Rhox War Monk. Regardless, with Rafiq you only need one to win the game, and three is enough that you'll generally see one even without Survival. He's also not pitchable to FoW, which is why I run a second Monk in place of the fourth.Quote:
3 Tarmogoyf can't be right. Never.
Genesis is better at creature recursion, IMO. The only reason to play Eternal Witness is for game two against anything running green or white, so you can recur Survival.Quote:
With Glen Elendra (which can be really good depending on the metagame), I would keep 1 Witness main.
I could see that happening. Only possible choice for replacement is another blue creature, though, as I'm skirting the necessary blue count as is.Quote:
-1 RWM (Go to SB)
I hardly ever have that problem, except against decks that hate out Squee, and four more creatures isn't going to solve that problem.Quote:
I would also cut daze or vial, because of the lack of creature you probably face with that much non-creature spells.
I really like both vial and daze in the deck. Still, cutting one daze and/or one vial is not out of the question. The only problem is what to replace them with, as lowering my blue count is out of the question, I don't want to run Clique without Sower or vice versa, and Wonder is, IMO, much better in the SB, just like Genesis.
The most possible change going along these lines would be -1 RWM, -1 Vial, +1 Clique, +1 Sower, but I've never been a big fan of Sower, as I generally find myself grabbing her in the same situations I would grab 'goyf or RWM. I do like Clique, but I don't think running proactive disruption is the way to go in a deck that is full of answers.
The thing about goyf is that he is easily castable, is almost always huge, and wins games on his own. Playing 4 in this deck is a given, and you never run fewer. So what if he doesn't pitch to force, he is the only card in the deck that needs no help to get there on his own.
I recently got my eyes on this deck and really love to play it. The first list I tried only packed Survival but I quickly added in Aether Vial because I felt like it would be perfect in the deck and it really is. SotF + Vial is just silly and with the quality of the creatures that the deck runs it's still very strong with just one of these permanents out.
Anyways, I stumbled upon Xian's list (on page 17 - post #331) that included CounterTop in the deck and couldn't help but to try it out myself. I took the exact same list except for these changes:
-1 Rhox War Monk
+1 Trinket Mage
-1 Plains
+1 Island
-1 Tundra
+1 Savannah
Trinket Mage should be very handy giving you the option to retrieve either Vial or Top when you've succesfully landed Survival and it has been useful. This is how the list turns out:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M10] Forest (1)
2 [M10] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
The list also happens to run 2 Rafiq which i've found out to be strictly better. Coupled with Survival you can easily get the first Rafiq, play him and then swing with a creature that just got double-strike. After that swing however Rafiq is very likely to be dealt with by your opponent and the beauty of running two is that you can now (hopefully) execute another swing just like the one before. These swings just wins games. Also, by running 2 you're not as reliant on SotF to get Rafiq but instead you draw into him once in a while which is seldom something you don't like. The possibility of drawing 2 is minimal and if you do the first you play is surely to be removed soon or you can always use the other for FoW should you have that.
Any toughts on how to improve the deck further are welcome. If you think that CounterTop doesn't belong in the deck i'd suggest for you to try it out first, if you still don't like it then please tell why.
PS: The first time you read "Exalted" you're really not much impressed by it (I wasn't atleast) but now that i've played with a list running 10 creatures with the ability I realise how stupid it is. Especially with Rafiq + Wonder...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
People. The utterly perfection of this posts argumentation is far beyond anything I could ever dream to counter with and I will therefore tell you all to completely ignore the recent post I did in this thread that suggested adding CounterTop in this deck because Waikiki has clearly put alot of thinking and effort to come up with such a delicate and wonderful conclusion as this not to mention i'm sure he has done extensive testing with CounterTop in Surviving Bant, otherwise, how could he have this kind of reasoning that he is now showing us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
Fair enough. However, I do disagree with Countertop here, and I'll toss out my reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melwis
Mana;
Due to my list at least, I attempt to maximize Green and White sources due to how my deck is built (I still run Oriss for example, and have 3 Warmonks). Because of this, it's very possible that Counterbalance won't be castable on turn two, or that it will force me into fetching inferior lands for the situation (e.g., taking Tropical when I suspect they are running Wasteland).
In addition, Top requires a substantial amount of mana to use effectively. Most of the lists here gravitate to 18 or so land with 4 Hierarchs and some number of Vials. The normal NLU deck can run anywhere from 3 to 5 more lands than us. Top is unlikely to be useful in the early or mid-game, which is when we (or at least I) have the most trouble. Once a Survival gets active, Top's ability to dig for answers is generally overkill, as most decks run answers in the form of Tutor-able creatures.
Creature Count;
This can be an issue. Some lists without CB/Top have already had issues with finding creatures to pitch. While it's possible to run it and have enough creatures, it is a concern of mine.
Synergy;
Yeah, it's good. It's capable of sealing the game all on its own. That doesn't mean it's a good choice for the deck. I've run it, and the list did fine, but I have had better success without it. What does the Counter/Top list gain over non CB/Top lists?
These would be my concerns for it. If it's working for you, dandy. It's been poor for me in the past, however, so I'm leery of taking your claim that it belongs in the deck.
Well first of all I am in no way trying to tell you all to immediately drop your current lists and put in CounterTop in them. I was merely posting here to further notify Xian's list since I decided to try it out and believed it worked really well. My quote to Waikiki was because all his post seemed to include was his hunch that CounterTop doesn't belong here but I still felt like he tought that quoting one sentence he had said in here before was enough to just completely ignore the post I did. Maybe I overreacted and maybe he has tried CounterTop in this deck, but as I said, his post didn't really give that feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman
Let's move on to the discussion:
@Mana: Yes mana might become a problem, especially when facing Wasteland/Stifle and the like. The biggest reason why the deck can play cards that require lots of different mana is ofcourse Noble Hierarch, without this guy my list and many others would probably not be enough mana reliant. That said, if you want to play cards that makes you focus more on green and/or white sources then obviously CounterTop is not for you.
@Top: Sure Top needs mana to work, but saying that it requires a subtstantial amount is wrong. If you just have Top out and lots of mana to spend then sure you can spend lots of mana on it if you like but for those situations where you have both Top and Survival out I think that spending one mana on Top doesn't really make you unable to use SotF (and you still have the choice to simply not pay for Top at that time should you need to use every mana on Survival). Having the option to do either can hardly be something negative? For those moments where you have SotF, Top & CB on the board I really don't think you can say that Top is bad because the mana you use on it will most likely win you the game.
@Creature count: It might sound weird but I really haven't had to much problems with this. Sure, sometimes I have played the last creature in my hand just to draw into SotF and then my list (19 creatures) has a lower chance of finding a discard outlet then most lists but this doesn't happen enough for me to worry, will however pay attention to it.
@Synergy: The biggest reason to play CounterTop would probably be because the deck can now either play out pretty aggresively (Vial, SotF) or much more controlling (CounterTop) or even somewhere in between which make it very versatile.
As I said in the start, I am not telling you to switch your lists to include CounterTop but what I am doing is trying to convince people that come here to atleast give it a chance. You said you had played with it and I believe you so that is fine.
PS: What does your list look like? I had to search for Oriss actually and now i'm interested. What is she there for mostly?
Was this needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Melwis
Since I created this deck I have tested both top and CB alot! and as you mentionned top sure is great "when" you got alot of mana out. Together with Survival you will gain alot of card advantage. Sure top is a good card to be played in this deck.
The problem I got was I tried to up the blue count and top would go into the ponder slot. Something I did not like. I find top a great late game card where I am in opinion our lategame is allready dominant due to survival. The thing I want to improve is the early game. This is were ponder is superior in my opinion.
Now adding CB to the mix will often lead to either survival or go the CB route. Which in my opinion doing too much with the deck. I think it's better to optimize one route and not be able to 2 ways that dont work as good as they work in a dedicated survival or CB top deck.
I haven't been able to have enough mana for both CB and survival. since you often use mana in your own turn to cast creatures. Sure CB can lock the game for you, but as I said the late game is allready great with survival giving you an answer to almost everything.
I have explained this before thats why my answer was short.
and like snowman said. It would make the manabase harder cause you need to support UU now alot sooner while you also want to be able to hit G as much as possible.
Off the top of my head,Quote:
Originally Posted by Melwis
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Tundra
4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Aether Vial
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Meddling Mage/Gaddok Teeg (I waffle on whether or not I want to be able to shut off Swords)
4x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Qasali Pridemage (One of them randomly changes with Wickerbough Elder)
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Wonder
1x Genesis
SB
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddok Teeg
3x Krosan Grip
3x Dueling Grounds (This is my latest thing I'm testing as Ichorid/Tribal hate, might not stay)
3x Meddling Mage
Played the deck today to second of 16 players. It felt good and I won against jank (RG beats deck with burn and some large creatures), UGB Intuition Demigod Control, and Survival Sneak Attack. I lost to Zoo. I didn't get a hold of Vials, so I decided I still wanted to try out a Ponder-less version. The deck ran really well and I never hated having more creatures.
20 Lands
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival
4 Swords
4 Force
1 Squee
1 Wonder
2 Hierarch (NEED TWO MORE)
3 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 War Monk
2 Clique
1 Predator
1 Witness
1 Rafiq
SB
4 Path
1 War Monk
3 Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Teeg
1 Genesis
3 Spell Snare
Zoo was tough. I sided in 3 Paths and a Monk taking out Predator, Witness, and 2 Cliques. I never drew much removal, or a War Monk and saw only one Survival both games and just got crushed. Still, the list ran flawlessly the rest of the time.
How do people feel about Magus of the Moat in the sideboard? The double white can sometimes be hard to hit, but lists running Aether Vial won't have a problem, as ramping it to four is generally the right play anyways, and Wonder will let you completely ignore the restriction, with Genesis allowing for recursion if it gets burned/countered.
Overall, I would think it would be very good against Goblins, MU Merfolk, and Dredge, who generally run no ways to remove Magus permanently, as well as being fair to good against UW Merfolk, Zoo, and random aggro, who can remove it permanently, but generally only run four spells to do so.
Goblins can build up their team and kill it with a gempalm, then alpha strike you for the win. If you ever get to turn 5 against Ichorid, you should be winning anyway. It is very good against merfolk, but I thing that getting the spore frog lock is just as effective, and it works 10000 times better against goblins and dredge.
I tried that, but it's not worth much when the same graveyard hate they bring in to hose Squee also hoses your stabilizing mechanism. It also basically requires Survival, as you need a discard outlet and two cards, of which you generally only run one, to work.Quote:
Goblins can build up their team and kill it with a gempalm, then alpha strike you for the win. If you ever get to turn 5 against Ichorid, you should be winning anyway. It is very good against merfolk, but I thing that getting the spore frog lock is just as effective, and it works 10000 times better against goblins and dredge.
I'm not sure if Magus is any better, of course. I'm trying to find time to do some testing on it, but I don't really have much.
I would not try to rely too much on the spore frog lock cause it's easy disruptable. I even kicked it out of my sb since the elves and ichorid are on a decline as for now.
It's really only vulnerable to graveyard hate. I still think its a lot better than magus.
its also weak against eot kill spore frog and attack for the win on their own turn. Only a few decks can't do that.
magus isn't worth playing anyways.
I play aether vial. Keep it set at 1 and you don't play frog until their turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
I can see it being stronger with a vial build. Then again you need a 2nd vial cause I think the first will be up further allready. Isn't that a problem sometimes?
Not as often as you'd think. Game 2, I usually keep vial at 1 to get ready for the lock, until I'm required to set it higher. 2 is usually the highest I ever set it anyway.