[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by miko

i am also not sure if the red splash for firespout is needed.

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zoo, merfolk, goblins, kithkins.

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Firespout is an all-star against all of those decks. Also, the red splash gives you access to REB/Pyroblast which are obviously huge against anything blue (e.g. 2/3 of the format)

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Originally Posted by psu42

And as much as I think Bob is great for cards...I'd rather have removal for Goyfs. No lightning bolts will ever remove a goyf (in any seriousness).

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I'm willing to bet that Confidant will win more game single-handedly than having access to Swords. An early, unanswered Confidant is almost impossible for many decks to overcome.

UGbr lists have multiple answers to Goyf including: Goyf, Shackles, Sower, Goyf+Bolt. Plus Spell Snare, etc. (Aside: these are the same answers Probasco's list ran without any removal). You'll draw those answers when you're drawing 2 cards a turn with Bob. I'm not telling anyone to play the UGbr build, I just think it's a pretty strong variant.

Firespout is also reasonably good against Tempo Thresh if you can get to the 3 mana threshold; since it also blows away Threshed Mongeese. Misplayer is correct about Firespout; it has single-handedly won me games against Survival Elves and Goblins.

The UGbr list is a very strong list; and even if Dreadstill is in your metagame you still have answers in the form of Sower or Trygon Predator MD, and Krosan Grip or Ancient Grudge in the SB. The main fear for that deck is a fast Tombstalker backed by disruption. The UGbw list is also very strong but giving up Firespout and REB/Pyroblast is painful, to say nothing of the tribal matchups with that deck; yes you still have access to Engineered Plague, but with the average tribal deck packing 8-12 Lords, Kithkin packing at least 8 + Ajani and Goblins now running MD Chieftains, Plague isn't what it used to be.

About Coatl: Coatl dodges Spell Snare and doesn't have the graveyard dependence that Tarmogoyf does. This deck needed more "must counter/deal with immediately" threats that provide a quick clock and Coatl provides it with exactly what some people want. Its essentially Tarmogoyf's 5-6 which versions that do not run the singleton Jitte want to speed their clocks up.

jitte is a debatable slot. and it is definitely not used to speed up a clock. it's just another way to win against aggro.
coatl might be not targetable by spell snare, but clique, too, is not affected by it. as well as it is not graveyard-dependent.

i think the matchup tempo-thresh vs. ugw-countertop is slightly in favor of countertop. because you can deal with tarmogoyf without a lot of problems. nimble mongoose is not even a thread to be considered in my opinion, because of rwm and clique.

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Originally Posted by miko

jitte is a debatable slot. and it is definitely not used to speed up a clock. it's just another way to win against aggro.
coatl might be not targetable by spell snare, but clique, too, is not affected by it. as well as it is not graveyard-dependent.

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I'm not saying Clique is bad; I'm currently running both Vendilion Clique and Lorescale Coatl in my newest build. But Clique is still about a 6 turn clock after 2 opposing fetchlands; Coatl unchecked is a 4 turn clock assuming 2 fetchlands from the opponent, and no Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT shenanigans on our part. And there have been times I can go "Sensei, Sensei" on people and kill them in one or two shots from a Coatl. Jitte was thrown out in an earlier post as a way to speed up your clock, and it can function as such with sufficient flying creatures; I'm aware of its anti-aggro abilities.

@MWest52117: every post from you i read sounds like general truth. "it's like that and nothing else..."

no offense meant. its just like that coatl never turns out to speed up my clock in any game i play.

btw.: i made clear that my approach to countertop is a very meta-orientated one. and: due to not enough play-skill i tend to play a rather consistent manabase than adding red to my list.

i also tested coatl in a lot of tourney and came to the conclusion that i could never ever build up a clock with it. it was always either removed or just did not hit the table soon enough.

that's why i dismissed coatl even though i bought 4 chinese foil ones :(

its just not effective in my environment.

@miko: None taken. I make my points forcefully, so it often comes across in the vein of general truth. I'd run Rhox War Monk over Coatl in a metagame completely infested with Zoo/Sligh decks. I don't like it against Goblins since usually they can get enough dudes on the board to Incinerator it away without blinking.

To return to another point you made, the CounterTop vs Tempo Thresh matchup, it is slightly in favour of us. CounterTop has a much better lategame than Tempo Thresh does due to Sensei's Divining Top card quality. Tempo Thresh has to beat us quickly or risk getting overpowered by CounterTop lock or our card quality. Knowing your opponent is playing Tempo Thresh can also be a huge advantage; I think Nassif makes this point much better:

"...since it seems his deck becomes much worse once you know exactly what’s in it. The matchup becomes easier if you know what to play around, and thus don’t risk getting wrecked by a Stifle or keep a land-light hand hoping he doesn’t pack Wastelands." - tournament report from SCG regarding his quarterfinal match at GP Chicago against Goobafish.

I agree with the statement above vs. Tempo Thresh. I've kept 3 and 4 land hands playing zoo vs. them and that is when I had my greatest success.


Having only 8 threats, only half of those which end the game super fast you have in reality only to worry about their tarmogoyfs. They don't have quite enough burn to kill you without getting a few hits in or letting them sandbag a pile of it (at this point you should have counter top assembled) and mongoose can sometimes be blocked and killed or at least 2 for 1 trade with your goyf.

Just make sure you have enough land and neutralize their goyfs, after that I think the game becomes a lot easier.

How easy will it be for this deck to go four colors once enemy fetches come out?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

How easy will it be for this deck to go four colors once enemy fetches come out?

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Pretty sure it already is easy.

the deck already is 4 colors

the new duals open up the opportunity for like 3 color decks to play basic forests or mountains with the ug and ur fetches, that is it really

countertop is hellbent on not missing blue land drops, so we really aren't gonna play more non-island basics...they don't really provide too much for our decks...just replace deltas with rainforests is about it

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Originally Posted by psu42

just replace deltas with rainforests is about it

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If you run a basic forest which I don't see as important...

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Originally Posted by psu42

the deck already is 4 colors

the new duals open up the opportunity for like 3 color decks to play basic forests or mountains with the ug and ur fetches, that is it really

countertop is hellbent on not missing blue land drops, so we really aren't gonna play more non-island basics...they don't really provide too much for our decks...just replace deltas with rainforests is about it

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It does make UGB able to be much more stable since the other 3 colour combinations had Windswept Heath or Wooded Foothills to use to fetch green and their splash colour; it gains the most from Zendikar, but gains as much from the GB fetchland as it does Misty Rainforest. I will be testing a single Forest in UGrw CounterTop instead of Tropical Island #4 once Zendikar hits to see if it really effects my consistency in hitting blue mana along with any potential problems with the effectiveness of Vedalken Shackles. Otherwise I agree with psu42 and the others, I can't see running a basic Plains or Mountain unless your metagame is full of decks packing Wastelocks; we only need a 2nd basic land to allow things like Grip or EE@3 against Blood Moon or B2B effects. Just my 2 cents.

I ended up 9th place yesterday with the Japanese list (would have made top8 if I wasn't dumb and didn't make a stupid playerror...), my teammate ended up 3rd-4th place with the same list. Anyway, the Japanese list is nuts. RWM, Firespout, I really like how it all works together. But... we have problems establishing good sideboard tech against Landstill. It's all we miss. What do you guys suggest?

There are some flaws of the Japanese list, I guess.

First: It doesn't play Qasali Pridemage.
Second: It doesn't play Clique
Third: It doesn't play Spell Snare

These flaws, to me, are just not what you need in this metagame. Trygon Predator is not even half as broken as Qasali Pridemage. Clique is the cold nuts against Landstill and Spell Snare well. Do I need to say more :D?

Our team made this list and I've been testing it and it's just awesome.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Ponder

4 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Jitte is not only awesome against any tribal deck. Jitte also wins you the mirror, Tempo Threshold and Rock. All decks are being played fairly often so why not play Umezawa's Jitte? I guess the only reason why people want to include Firespout is the sideboard cards you get along. However, the japanese list doesn't even play Pyroblast. So why would you splash a 4th colour if Umezawa's Jitte does the job aswell?
Another thing: The CC in the japanese list is a bit strange:
CC 1: 15
CC 2: 12
CC 3: 9
CC 5: 4

The list we play have a more consistent CC:
CC 1: 16
CC 2: 17
CC 3: 5
CC 5: 4

As you can see our CC 2 spot is distributed more heavily making it easier to beat mirror once Counterbalance landed. Also our list is probably better since our list plays 3 Spell Snare and 4 Qasali Pridemage to fight off Counterbalance.
It just seems that as though the idea of Firespout is nice, the strenght of our list just seems endless. Miko, I see that you play nearly the same list. You instead play +1 Ponder -1 Umezawa's Jitte. Trust me: The extra Umezawa's Jitte is much stronger :D.

Props to Steven Geurts, who made this list. He just made such a powerful list.

I'd want to add i'm not convinced on Ponders, while I liked a lot to play 4 SDT.

The other Ponder slot could go to an additional land, in some cases i found 18 wasn't enough. Maybe that's why you use Ponder in favour to 19th land, Ponder helps to fix mana in first turns, but that's my impression.

Another suggestion is I think I'm gonna use Misty Rainforest in the Windswept heath slot. We have access to basic forest while being able to get a first turn basic island from the rainforest for casting t2 counterbalance with no fear (only sinkhole) I think we all agree on that.

My manabase looks like (ponderless list)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

First: It doesn't play Qasali Pridemage.

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The deck relies on the synergy between CounterTop and Firespout. Qasali Pridemage dies to Firespout. It's not an option.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Second: It doesn't play Clique

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You could opt to kick out Trygon Predator for Clique, that doesn't sound half-bad at all.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Third: It doesn't play Spell Snare

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I don't like decks that combine CounterTop with Spell Snare. Once you've established CounterTop, it's near useless. Before that, you're usually ok running FoW and Daze.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Our team made this list and I've been testing it and it's just awesome.
*list*

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There's a very distinct difference between this list and the Japanese one: Firespout. The list looks good for a non-Firespout list (except that I wouldn't run Spell Snare and CounterTop in the same list). But trust me, Firespout is nuts if you adapt your list to it.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Also our list is probably better in the mirror since our list plays 3 Spell Snare and 4 Qasali Pridemage to fight off Counterbalance.

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Fixed that for you. Anyway, we could find out, right :wink:.

Oh, and I have to add that we (my team) changed the Japanese list a bit. Different sideboard with Red Blasts and a third Volcanic Island maindeck.

@Skeggi and Cenarius debate: I personally don't like my MD artifact/enchantment removal and my way to win games against tribal aggro and Zoo to be shut down by random Pithing Needles or dedicated artifact removal, which people do pack in my metagame. With Firespout, I have won games where I've had both CounterTop and Shackles shut down via Pithing Needles on SDT and Shackles, against Naya Zoo. I have to agree with Skeggi about Firespout, it does nutty things to aggro decks. Also, Qasali Pridemage doesn't have a very good chance of resolving if you are behind and need to break a CB lock, precisely because of its 2cmc. It is a good proactive answer to Counterbalance, but a horrible reactive answer, which is exactly when you need it the most. Pridemage is also subpar against Zoo where every burn spell the deck runs plus Lavamancer can remove it with one spell; its merely a speedbump to them. Vendilion Clique however, is something I would definitely suggest; it is exceptionally versatile against almost everything in the metagame.

As for Spell Snare vs. Daze, I currently run Daze, but good cases can be made for both spells. It seems to come down to player preference and metagame considerations since one is not strictly superior to the other. Or one could run both if you have space.

I went 5-2 on a 120people tournament 1 month ago with these japanese list, it's a good one i lost only to really bad luck.

In the right meta this deck is nuts.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I'm willing to bet that Confidant will win more game single-handedly than having access to Swords. An early, unanswered Confidant is almost impossible for many decks to overcome.

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It's true, I ran this, and wouldn't change a single card
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29845

Bob is so good, one of my play of the days were having countertop out, the played bob, and I let it resolve, just so I could untap and sower it.

While Spell Snare isn't at its best in CounterTop lists, it's not bad at all. Without Counterbalance out it's great, and if you get it on top it acts as both a CC 1 and CC 2 since you can tap top, draw it, and play it if you don't have a CC 2 on top.

The Japanese list is awesome, and it's probably the best or second best CounterTop list out there. It has a good to great matchup against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, while being solid against Tempo Thresh, and better than most CounterTop lists against Ichorid. Firespout is an incredibly underrated card in CounterTop, and even Legacy in general. Only in the most aggro-lite metagames should CounterTop not run it in the 75. My meta right now contains the Japanese list and two Tempo Thresh variants that run Burning Tree Shaman and Firespout.

I run the following list, which in various incarnations I've top-eighted at both 2009 Legacy Championship Preliminaries, the 2009 Legacy Championships, The Meandeck Open #4, and numerous local tournaments ranging from 16-28 people.

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
3 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout

Natural Order is incredibly underrated in CounterTop. You can spend the early and mid game being the best deck in the format and running your opponent out of countermagic and then cast Natural Order and win. Progenitus turns awful situations into excellent ones, and the demoralized look on your opponent's face after you went from on the ropes to victory in a single stroke is priceless. There are criminally few answers to Progenitus played in this format.

There just aren't cards in this format that swing games like Progenitus, and I've got the results to prove it.