[Deck] Aggro Loam

This is from playtesting last year. Merfolk will and can race you, especially when they counter your key cards.

I'd be interested to see the results from your testing, and whether the pilot knew what he was doing, because your post smacks of hyperbole. Granted, my list did not run Bolt and Grim Lavamancer. These are not widely accepted cards in the list; so it's a valid concern.

Can you build Aggro Loam to beat specific matchups? Sure!

Depending on the build of Zoo, they may just be too fast for you, and to follow up with Fireblast, Bolts, Chains, etc. If you run Devastating Dreams, then it's much easier. Without, you rely too much on Seismic (which is only a 3 of). Zoo also typically play 3-4 Pridemages, which will stop the Assaults.

You're assuming that Aggro Loam draws perfectly every game, and has all the necessary accel, bombs, and removal. This is a fallacy, and doesn't aid any discussion of actual gameplay.

Dismember is just fine. Sometimes you're off colour, or sometimes you want to only pay 1 mana.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by rukcus

This is from playtesting last year. Merfolk will and can race you, especially when they counter your key cards.

I'd be interested to see the results from your testing, and whether the pilot knew what he was doing, because your post smacks of hyperbole. Granted, my list did not run Bolt and Grim Lavamancer. These are not widely accepted cards in the list; so it's a valid concern.

Can you build Aggro Loam to beat specific matchups? Sure!

Depending on the build of Zoo, they may just be too fast for you, and to follow up with Fireblast, Bolts, Chains, etc. If you run Devastating Dreams, then it's much easier. Without, you rely too much on Seismic (which is only a 3 of). Zoo also typically play 3-4 Pridemages, which will stop the Assaults.

You're assuming that Aggro Loam draws perfectly every game, and has all the necessary accel, bombs, and removal. This is a fallacy, and doesn't aid any discussion of actual gameplay.

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Talking about when a deck shits on itself doesn't actually help anything. I think that Tony has the perfect Aggro Loam list, so when I'm talking about it, I'm referring to that list, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the list you were using was suboptimal.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Talking about when a deck shits on itself doesn't actually help anything. I think that Tony has the perfect Aggro Loam list, so when I'm talking about it, I'm referring to that list, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the list you were using was suboptimal.

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Perhaps it's suboptimal now. But I also have tournament data to back it up the list I ran.

http://www.mtgstats.com/Tournament.a...urnamentID=618

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Originally Posted by rukcus

I ran into the following decks: (I didn't take notes on SBing, so these are guesses as to what I did - I literally built the SB 5 minutes before the tourney and haven't played the deck in over 4 months)

Round 1: Reanimtor (2-0)
SB:
+4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Devastating Dreams -2 EE

Round 2: CB-Top Thopters (2-0)
SB:
+2 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 Maelstrom Pulse -1 KotR

Round 3: 4c Deed-still (2-0)
SB:
+3 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip +1 Eternal Witness
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 EE -1 KotR -2 Maelstrom Pulse

Round 4: Rgb Goblins (2-1)
SB for Game 2:
-3 Dark Confidant -1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Firespout +1 Pernicious Deed

SB for Game 3:
-4 Chalice
+1 Dark Confidant +1 Eternal Witness +1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 Seismic Assault

I completely messed up game 2 SB and didn't realize until I started the game. This is where the lack of SB experience showed, but I managed to get control of the game at 2 life and overcome his Wort.

I also noticed a lot of decks just scoop to Chalice @1, which is refreshing since I hate playing the long game vs blue decks with Jace, the Mindsculptor. Also, I like Seismic Assault better in the sideboard as it is a very mana intense card, and not that great against aggro decks. It's a good transformation when your opponents bring in creature hate and you side out a few dorks for the Seismic plan. In those matches, you have time to reach the late game to allow S.Assault to become inevitable. Also, even with the prevalence of g/y strategies - I did not run into any graveyard hate.

One last note: there was not a single Dredge deck in the tournament due to the card being banned online for game rules reasons. This may contribute to why there was a lack of yard hate, and made my matches a bit easier.

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In case you're wondering. I back my statements up with results. Please show me your (and not Tony's) results, before you throw stones.

More examples of recent placing Aggro Loam (notice lack of Bolts/Lavamancer)
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=329886 [6/12/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318573 [5/27/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318421 [5/27/11]

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Originally Posted by ruckus

In case you're wondering. I back my statements up with results. Please show me your (and not Tony's) results, before you throw stones.

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You've seen my mox emerald right?

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Originally Posted by Antonius

You've seen my mox emerald right?

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No, actually I haven't. I've heard about it. Aggro Loam was a good choice, and I still think that Lavamancer/Bolt is a good plan (at least better plan than CotV). I am adding more beef to the discussion by showing instances of Aggro Loam decks with Knight of the Reliquary AND Crusher, not instead of.

I still stand by my statement that KotR is insanely good in Aggro Loam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rukcus

In case you're wondering. I back my statements up with results. Please show me your (and not Tony's) results, before you throw stones.

More examples of recent placing Aggro Loam (notice lack of Bolts/Lavamancer)
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=329886 [6/12/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318573 [5/27/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318421 [5/27/11]

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I play decks that can kill on turn 1, aka not this deck ever. Not being able to use Tony's results in this argument is equivalent to not being able to use scientific discoveries that I didn't make when talking about climate change or whatever. Facts are facts, who discovered them doesn't actually matter.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I play decks that can kill on turn 1

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Then your opinion is not worth much in this thread, especially if it concerns specific matchups.

I value Tony's opinion on the deck, because he has played it, played it well, and has found a list that is optimal for his needs. I have played around with this deck, adjusted to the metagame at hand, and succeeded. The choices I made are valid and proved to be so.

You chiming in stating XYZ, without having played the deck is not useful. Moreso, you are supporting an unpopular list and discounting valid and powerful choices for the archetype that you have no basis to backup.

Really? Settle down, children.

Do we really need the back and forth? You can still have two lists without one being suboptimal.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Antonius

Dismember seems like an awful idea. Do you really want to pay a total of 7 life for a removal spell? Run Bolt and Lavamancer. You won't regret it.

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I meant that some Merfolk decks are running Dismember (and thus could answer a quick Confidant if they lacked a FOW). I'm not aware of Aggro Loam builds running Dismember, but I generally feel it to be a decent card. Lavamancer is huge against Merfolk if it resolves. I was not very happy with Bolt in my testing, but I'm sure some builds can use it to the best of its potential.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Then your opinion is not worth much in this thread, especially if it concerns specific matchups.

I value Tony's opinion on the deck, because he has played it, played it well, and has found a list that is optimal for his needs. I have played around with this deck, adjusted to the metagame at hand, and succeeded. The choices I made are valid and proved to be so.

You chiming in stating XYZ, without having played the deck is not useful. Moreso, you are supporting an unpopular list and discounting valid and powerful choices for the archetype that you have no basis to backup.

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I played Aggro Loam right before I switched to Storm, for a like a year. I know the basics about the deck.

I don't really see any list but Tony's putting up results, so I don't think other lists are really valid. Tony has already said why Knight isn't as good as Crusher, mainly the fact that it is graveyard dependent and game 2 and 3 that is very bad.

I can bet you I can put up results on Tuesday night, if you ask me to play the deck for Tuesday.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I can bet you I can put up results on Tuesday night, if you ask me to play the deck for Tuesday.

-Matt

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Do we know you, Ser? Are you a west coaster?

Koby -
you know my opinions on all the cards. I feel that my 75% (+/- 5ish%) lifetime record with the list since I started playing it back in december speaks for itself. You've personally been to every tournament where i've done well and I don't think I need to elaborate any further. If you don't recall some of our discussions IRL you can just flip back in the thread where I address KoTR, Lavamancer, Bolt and Chalice and am mostly ignored.

I agree with you on the CotV, but I still think you haven't given KotR enough testing. I've had nothing but fun/crushing with it in Aggro Loam about this time last year, and I don't see how the metagame is any worse (in fact, more favorable) to the Knight. Crusher is still boss, and I don't advocate cutting him all together from the deck - merely shaving off 1 to make the curve fit nicer along with Knights. I don't like Crusher against Jace decks, and that's where he's weaker - I think there's also going to be many more Jaces creeping into Legacy now that he's both cheaper and more prevalent after being banned in Standard. KotR has, in all the decks I've played him in, been so useful in Wasting my opponent backs into the stone age that I can't imagine trying to be too cutesy with him. He also has amazing synergy with Crusher as you're aware.

It allows you a 2nd method to control the game when you don't have Life from the Loam - and in that aspect it's indispensible.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

I agree with you on the CotV, but I still think you haven't given KotR enough testing. I've had nothing but fun/crushing with it in Aggro Loam about this time last year, and I don't see how the metagame is any worse (in fact, more favorable) to the Knight. Crusher is still boss, and I don't advocate cutting him all together from the deck - merely shaving off 1 to make the curve fit nicer along with Knights. I don't like Crusher against Jace decks, and that's where he's weaker - I think there's also going to be many more Jaces creeping into Legacy now that he's both cheaper and more prevalent after being banned in Standard. KotR has, in all the decks I've played him in, been so useful in Wasting my opponent backs into the stone age that I can't imagine trying to be too cutesy with him. He also has amazing synergy with Crusher as you're aware.

It allows you a 2nd method to control the game when you don't have Life from the Loam - and in that aspect it's indispensible.

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I might try it in conjunction with one of the alternatives i've listed later in this post. But for the established list, KoTR doesn't play well with Lavamancer. I can see how KoTR can stop jace if he comes in two turns before, but heads up he still gets bounced. Lavamancer is far more likely to come down early and an active lavamancer creates real problems for Jace.

@ESG:

Someone just posted a list with Dismember last page. You saw that, right?

what were you mainly testing against? There are definitely matchups where Bolt isn't amazing but given the way the format has progressed from all Goyfs and KotRs to SFMs, Bobs, Heirarchs, cliques and mirran crusaders, Bolt as removal is amazing against ~50% of the format. Bant aggro presents some interesting problems for my removal package though, one i only recently discovered. If merfolk uses mental misstep to counter bolt you generally dont care because you know you'll draw more removal or a Tarmogoyf wall or something that will crush them. Other blue decks tend to pitch their missteps to Force; Bant doesn't run force. They misstep lightning bolt then slap Fire/Ice or Feast/Famine on the offending creature and get way obnoxious. Granted, if they dont' have Misstep, bolt still torches every single dude in their deck save KoTR. I'll have to test the matchup more (from what I played it was still ~50%, but that's way too low for an aggro deck) but I have started considering alternatives.
1. Punishing Fires/Grove. I know I've talked it down in the past but it is powerful. Unfortunately it screws with the balance of your manabase thus making black that much harder to access. Cutting down on fetches also reduces the overall power of your Loam
2. I'm a big fan of Arc Trail. That card is an engine to value town.
3. Mas EE is never a bad idea. Cutting 1cmc spells means you lose a lot of speed and responsiveness but EE opens up possibilities of 2 or 3-for-1's thus rewarding you greatly for your slower play.
4. Black Removal: Pulse is versatile but slow. Deed is slow and unwieldy but creates massive value. Dismember costs seven life after you flip it off confidant. Smother/Terminate/Throat all feel subpar compared to the effectiveness of 1 mana - bolt which rides roughshod over elves, goblins zoo and every other aggro deck in the format. Well, i suppose that's the same with everything. Mental misstep throws forks in all kinds of great cards.

ah, and lastly before I forget: none of these cards, save pulse, are really great at killing Jace, as Lightning Bolt frequently is.

What about Crime / Punishment as a semi-Deed effect? It seems more specific (:1::g::b: Wrath Zoo), but has to be shot once. It does deal with Jace/Moat without wrathing yourself however.

It's been some time since I tested Bolt. I would be open to testing it again. (I still see more Goyfs on average than Stoneforge Mystics, though.) There was a period where I was seeing a number of Reanimator and Show and Tell decks, along with the Tarmogoyf decks, which shifted me to Swords to Plowshares.

I like Arc Trail, too. I run Grove/Fires in my build and really like it, although it is somewhat slower. It's decent against Jace. My list runs more like Control than Aggro (it has a wishboard), which is why I wasn't posting in this thread before. But now it seems like people are exploring the archetype more, so maybe there's greater interest in variants.

Yeah, I just saw Dismember in sdematt's list.

I think the no-Chalice builds are more viable these days with combo being pushed out of favor. My main problem with Aggro-Loam is: If you don't open with a Mox hand, or have your 1st 2cmc play countered, you are pretty behind in the game. It really sucks to have a no Mox hand and pass the turn while your opponents start developing. Usually, it's not that bad since the turn 1 plays in Legacy don't win games immediately (except combo which was this deck's worst nightmare).

The no Chalice builds allow for turn 1 Lavamancer/StP/Bolt plays that follow up to a 2nd play. This is pretty nice for sure. Any advice if RGB or RGw lists are better these days? I'm still leaning towards Bobs because the deck is not as good without him. He's a little fragile, but he's one of those must-answer bombs, along with everything else in the deck. I've tried to fit 2 PFires + 2 Groves in my build, because they're great in the loam shell, and help cover the weaker tribal matchups the deck sometimes face. Lavamancer is great, but Merfolk these days pack dismembers. Not that it makes Lavamancer worse, but that's an issue where your key card against the matchup is no longer unanswerable. PFires (I've done lots of testing with PFires in other decks) is pretty amazing against anything that is tribal, and is pretty incredible against SFM/Hierarch/Clique.decks that pop up these days (also it is MM-proof)

Antonius, I'm a West Coaster, but not LA. I'm from Vancouver.

I see the point of having T1 plays without Mox, but also, turning off Mental Misstep is kind of hot. Should this be the reason to NOT run cards? Of course not, but I just think it's kind of fun to have them hold dead cards.

Crime/Punishment doesn't deal with Jace, unforts. Pulse does! :)

-Matt