Miracle Control

I have been playing a U/W variant recently and through a lot of play testing found that counterbalance at least in 3x-4x range is way to much for the deck to handle. The deck is already playing 5+ miracle cards and four tops. Both of theses cards are terrible to find in multiples. Recently I have moved the counterbalances to the board as a 3x to make room for an extra spell pierce, a path to exile and a humility main deck.

3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Humility

4 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Glacial Fortress

SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Counterbalance

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Originally Posted by GradStudentGuy

I have been playing a U/W variant recently and through a lot of play testing found that counterbalance at least in 3x-4x range is way to much for the deck to handle. The deck is already playing 5+ miracle cards and four tops. Both of theses cards are terrible to find in multiples.

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Mulitple CBs allow you to not have to top if you have a fetch. Multiple tops let you take a card from the top then fetch away. More than one terminus is necessary once your opponent knows what you plan to do.

Why is having multiples of the way you gain a winning position bad?

Okay guys, I am having problems with a decision. It's about whether playing UW or UWb Terminator. Here's my UWb list for a starting point:

3 Underground Sea
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa

4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm

2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

So, black is mainboard for 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Liliana. In the sideboard I play more Discard, Extirpates and Virtue's Ruin. The Thoughtseizes proved incredibly strong, whereas Liliana wasn't too shabby either - but lacked some playing-consistency due to BB. Id be glad if any of you gave me a good input how to improve my UWb list. Firstly, I would want to stay in black, as it's been giving me an edge in the mirror. An T1 Thoughtseizes is a much stronger play than a T1 Top if you ask me. In addition to this I wouldnt like to go below 5 CC3 spells.

Ideas?


Thanks and Greetings

EDIT:My idea was: - 2 Underground Sea +1 Island -2 Liliana + 1 Thoughtseize making it 60 cards. Problem: only 3 CC3 cards, which is wayy to few. Maybe moving the 3rd TS to the side and putting a O-Ring in. To add up the CC3 count maybe a 1off E-Tutor would make the cut? But where? Is all these durdling around with black really worth it?

@GradStudentGuy

A Humility in main seems fun. I just might try that. Just as a preference using your list, I would probably take out some ponders for some Counterbalances.

@Philipp802

I'm not a fan of the UWb version, but I do see the merits of it. I would go towards 22 lands (your choice of configuration), then put in some Vindicates in place of Liliana (lightens splash color needs and provides flexible solutions).

I don't know how much you like Thoughtseize, but if you really want them T1, I think 2 copies won't seem to get you that start often.

I did the following:
-2 Underground Sea
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Scalding Tarn
+2 Island
+1 Plains
-2 Liliana
+2 Oblivion-Ring
+1 Enlightened Tutor

I do not want to cut the Thoughtseizes simply because I am already pretty geared against the SneakAttack-MU! In this MU Id like to have TS over SpellPierce 10/10 times. I play 2 more Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. Why O-Rings and not Vindicate? Same reasoning - the SneakAttack-MU. I can drop it via Show and Tell which owns a Emrakul and is still decent vs SneakAttack/Griselbrand. In addition to this reasons the little black-splash allows me to play a Surgical/Extirpate-Split and Nihil Spellbombs. In the Sideboard I run 1 more E-Tutor + Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Runed Halo and Pithing Needle.

Greetings

Philipp, sarapfish and yourself have already covered much of what I have to say about your list, but this is a more detailed reasoning behind some choices for you or others thinking about UWb to consider. (I wrote this out before either of you replied to your UWb list, but the submission never went through).

Personally I believe UWb not to be worth it at least until S&T shows up in the numbers everyone feared (no where near that yet, maybe your meta is though). I'd rather not destabilize the manabase or make it any more prone to non-basic hate than it has to be.

Seeing as you would prefer to stick with a black splash I would try these changes:
-2 Liliana
+1 Thoughtseize/IoK
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Fetch Land (with no colorless sources you can safely drop to 22)
+1 Oring or Clique (if you really want to keep 5 3ccs), otherwise another Snapcaster, Counterspell, or Elsepth

(you seem to have made similar changes already)

About the manabase in general. Losing Liliana allows you to tighten up your mana a lot. I say replace 1 sea with an Island, and if you add an Oring or Elspeth a second sea for an Island, otherwise replace the Scrubland for the Island. Cut 1 Fortress for a plains, or perhaps remove another fetch in place of any of those lands.

You're running thoughtseizes against a field of RUG and UR delver, they are quick and efficient. You can't afford 10 fetches, especially not with thoughtseizes. I'd consider even replacing all the MD Thoughtseizes with IoKs and moving TS to the board for this reason, but that's something you should test out first. Many times against UR and RUG I have stabilized between 1-4 life, those life dings you're taking will add up, keep that in mind in the early game and fetch as few times as possible.

Oh, I've never been a UWb user for this deck type, was just responding as if I were in his (Philipp802) shoes. In my UW list, I'm now testing Mishra's Factory as Hanni suggested.

Just to share, I'm currently considering:
1.) 3 Terminus + 1 Humility (instead of Terminus set)
2.) Gideon Jura (still wondering if this deck can be his home or a 5cc walker is bad)

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Mulitple CBs allow you to not have to top if you have a fetch. Multiple tops let you take a card from the top then fetch away. More than one terminus is necessary once your opponent knows what you plan to do.

Why is having multiples of the way you gain a winning position bad?

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Opening hands with more then one counterbalance and multiple miracle are just terrible most of the time. While the counterbalances effect is powerful if you don't have a top filtering your draws your going to get stuck with these in your hand. Furthermore, there is a greater abundance of two and three drops in the meta ( excluding rug ) making the combo not as powerful as it use to be .Top and fetches are already being used to filter for miracles. Having an active counter balance while trying to digging for miracles strains the mana base and quickly goes through our fetch lands. Counterbalance in my play experience is best left for the board where you can board out some miracle cards.

The main point I am driving at is when you have a ton of cards that are dead if you draw duplicates you are not going to keep up with decks who don't have the same issue.

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Opening hands with more then one counterbalance and multiple miracle are just terrible most of the time. While the counterbalances effect is powerful if you don't have a top filtering your draws your going to get stuck with these in your hand. Furthermore, there is a greater abundance of two and three drops in the meta ( excluding rug ) making the combo not as powerful as it use to be .Top and fetches are already being used to filter for miracles. Having an active counter balance while trying to digging for miracles strains the mana base and quickly goes through our fetch lands. Counterbalance in my play experience is best left for the board where you can board out some miracle cards.

The main point I am driving at is when you have a ton of cards that are dead if you draw duplicates you are not going to keep up with decks who don't have the same issue.

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I think you're over exaggerating the opening hand a bit. I actually like to see a Terminus in my opener, because it means that I can have access to a Terminus with a single Brainstorm or midgame Jace. It's better than getting swarmed and not seeing a single Terminus. Between 4 Brainstorm 3 Jace, and 3 SCM to flashback any previously cast Brainstorm's, the deck has more than enough ways of liberating that Terminus you drew your the opener.

Drawing multiple Counterbalances isn't necessarily bad either. Alot of times, the first one is going to get countered or discard or whatever. Sometimes, you need to pitch something to FoW, and an extra Counterbalance is great for that. Either way, resolving a Counterbalance is great against nearly every single matchup. It's not about hardlocking an opponent, it's about incrimental card advantage. Counterbalance to this deck is what Standstill was to Landstill. Even if you miss a few blind flips with it early, the first card it counters is parity, and every card after that is +1 CA. In a slower control deck like this, you're going to get plenty of mileage out of that Counterbalance before the game is over.

The fact that Counterbalance improves otherwise horrible matchups like Burn, Spiral Tide, Aggro Loam, ANT, Sligh, Reanimator, so on and so forth, is gravy. There are few to no matchups that Counterbalance isn't at least somewhat useful in. Once you assemble a Top, there are alot of matchups that you totally dominate, like RUG Tempo. It's still a pretty good card against Maverick and Show and Tell, you just need to look at it from a different lens, i.e don't treat it as a lock, treat it as a card advantage engine.

Counterbalance has always been an incredible card for control decks, despite the majority of the community running it in aggro/control decks way back when (Bant w/ Counterbalance primarily). Just because some of the decks in the format run slightly higher cc's these days doesn't make it a bad card.

Also, there is consistency in redundancy, which is why running 4-of's of your strongest spells is a good idea, i.e Terminus and Counterbalance. The deck has plenty of ways of fixing it's hand; the card quality of this deck is one of the best in the format. I'm not worried about occasionally drawing multiples of cards I don't need multiples of.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm not worried about occasionally drawing multiples of cards I don't need multiples of.

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I think the point is that there are multiples of bad-multiples, which is somewhat endemic to a highly-reactive deck, and especially so for one where there are many high-powered spells that are hard to "aim," like Terminus and Counterbalance, which are somewhat-to-very circumstantial - they don't always do what you want.

Brainstorming, FoW pitching, and good card selection can play through this and give you a lot of really powerful spells which do do what you want, but you can also just die while holding lots of circumstantial blanks.
For having so much card selection, it can still feel like a very inconsistent deck.

Decks have been running 4 Counterbalance for ages. I don't see why there is an issue with it now, considering how powerful the card is. It might blank a few blind flips, it might be dead in multiples if you have already resolved one... but it's still a single spell that can and will counter multiple spells over the course of the game. You're also not taking into consideration that it frequently eats opposing countermagic vs Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, etc, or removal from GSZ into Qasali from Maverick, Nic Fit, etc. Against RUG Tempo especially, you really want to see multiples.

As far as Terminus goes, it being a blank in hand is no different than Wrath of God. Sure, Wrath of God is no longer a blank once you hit 2WW, but Terminus is no longer a blank once you cast Brainstorm or Jace, and it can be hardcast late game for 4WW if it comes to that. The fact that its Miracle cost costs as much mana as Swords to Plowshares, except it wipes the entire board clean, is an overpowered effect, simply put. Why would I not run a playset of such a powerful removal spell? Terminus has been more clutch for me than StP has.

Reactive or not, these spells are very general in their use. All decks play spells, and most decks have many 1cc and 2cc spells, so Counterbalance is rarely a dead spell. Most decks run creatures, whether it be aggro, combo, or control, so Terminus is rarely a dead spell. These cards are immensely powerful, and worth running in multiples. Simply put: you want to see them. In Terminus' case, you want to see multiples of them throughout the course of most games.

To make a statement that the deck is inconsistent has me dumbfounded. I'm not sure what the extent of your experience is with playing this deck, or this sort of deck, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment. The deck has always been very consistent for me, and the only inconsistencies I do run into are the same inconsistencies that any other control deck would run into, whether it be U/W, BUG, etc.

I've been playtesting with this archetype for years now, and I'm very satisfied with the shell of the deck. I've been running 4 Counterbalance in this deck for 4+ years now. Questioning to validity of running 4 at this point, to me, is silly. I could understand a suggestion to run 3 instead of 4, but to cut them from the maindeck entirely because they are "inconsistent"... seems absurd.

Terminus is a new addition, so there's more room for discussion there. With the playtesting I've done so far with it though, the card is bonkers. This deck has been close to Tier 1 forever now, and it's always been missing that "something." Terminus was the card this deck needed to break into Tier 1 quality, and I wouldn't run less than 3. I'm very happy with 4 right now; Terminus has won me a rediculous number of games so far. A 1cc removal spell that wipes the entire board is a very overpowered effect, the card advantage against aggro decks is massive, and the fact that it clears the board completely clean, so that I can drop a Jace, is fantastic. I run 4 so I can see them frequently. Again, there is consistency in redundancy.

Entreat also added greatly to this decks power level, further escalating its tier quality. Now, instead of games dragging on with an Elspeth like they sometimes would before, I just make a shitload of Angels and win next turn.

tl;dr I run 4 Counterbalance and 4 Terminus because they win me games. Alot of games.

Ive updated my list again:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
//It's a miracle
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
//Counterspells
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
//Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
//Library-Manipulation
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
//Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge


@Counterbalance:
Counterbalance is important and strong. And 4 is surely fine. I play 3 + 1 Tutor for it which worked well for me. I can see you cutting it down to 3, but cutting it entirely? Then you should play a deck that's stronger on controlling the game by itself - BUG Control - but then UW might be the wrong shell for you.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

tl;dr I run 4 Counterbalance and 4 Terminus because they win me games. Alot of games.

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To clarify:

If I were running this archetype in a tournament tomorrow (which I was supposed to do but it was cancelled!) I would certainly be running 4 Terminus and would go with one of several versions I've played, depending on the tournament, running 4, 2, or 0 CB maindeck depending on the strategy I was going to play and what I expected to see.

That doesn't change the fact that it takes a tempo-investment to use opening hand miracles, top (especially the second), and counterbalance. I don't think they're bad, or that the strategy is bad, but there are a lot of maindeck spells which don't immediately impact the board or stack or which address one powerfully and not the other. You can play against combo and see StP, Termnius, Enterat, and Jace and just lose. I think that's worth thinking about in Game 1.

Thus, I go back and forth on running Ponders because hitting all your stuff with the right timing can be so powerful. I have also kept kicking around Chrome Mox, which I've seen in some (usually more miracle-heavy) lists. At many points it would be awful, but the tempo-injection on turn 1 and use of (for a while) dead cards in the opening draw could provide a jump ahead in controlling the board, while the card disadvantage can come back through Terminus/CB.

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That doesn't change the fact that it takes a tempo-investment to use opening hand miracles, top (especially the second), and counterbalance. I don't think they're bad, or that the strategy is bad, but there are a lot of maindeck spells which don't immediately impact the board or stack or which address one powerfully and not the other. You can play against combo and see StP, Termnius, Enterat, and Jace and just lose. I think that's worth thinking about in Game 1.

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I understand your point, but that's a fundamental issue inherent with control. It's not something new or specific to this deck. All control decks run into that problem, where sometimes you draw all removal against creatureless decks, or all countermagic against a swarm of cheap efficient creatures.

I also realize that this deck has a somewhat poor tempo gameplan, but again, that's fundamental of control decks. Between 1cc topdecked Terminus, StP, FoW, and even Counterspell (which becomes active as soon as turn 2 if you hit UU), you can answer early game threats. Terminus fixes alot of the early tempo problems too. If you rush out a turn 1 Top and 2 Counterbalance, but your opponent runs out a couple of dudes while you set that up, normally you have to dig out of a hole. With Terminus, a single topdecked Terminus clears the board for you, bringing you back from behind to a stable gamestate, and then CounterTop on a clean board puts you ahead.

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Thus, I go back and forth on running Ponders because hitting all your stuff with the right timing can be so powerful. I have also kept kicking around Chrome Mox, which I've seen in some (usually more miracle-heavy) lists. At many points it would be awful, but the tempo-injection on turn 1 and use of (for a while) dead cards in the opening draw could provide a jump ahead in controlling the board, while the card disadvantage can come back through Terminus/CB.

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I have not felt the need for the extra "tempo" myself, but I think I'd sooner run Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and/or Path to Exile (or Ghastly Demise with a black splash) before I'd run Chrome Mox.

I don't think Ponder is necessary. That doesn't mean I'm right, nor wrong, that's just the way I build and play U/W Control. It's not that much of a leap to cut CB/Top for Snare/Ponder, cut Entreat/Terminus/O Ring for SFM/Clique and turn the deck into Stoneblade. There's not much of a card difference, but it makes the decks play drastically different. Again, it comes down to this being the way I build and play U/W Control.

I'm not sure why some people are STILL questioning the power of Counterbalance.

- It helps some of our really bad matchups, like Storm and Burn. These matchups are traditionally bad for slow U/W control decks.
- It's the trump card in late game control match-ups. Re-useable counters will win those counter wars.
- There are ALWAYS targets for it. Even with things like Caverns of Souls (which would only see play in niche tribal decks that are terrible against the format ATM) and Vial (which doesn't see play anymore), there isn't such a thing as a deck with no non-creature targets that can actually play in Legacy (except maybe goblins).
- I'm ok with Goblins/Merfolk being a bad matchup since they don't see play due to a Batterskull smashing them out and Mavericks causing them issues.
- Standstill is terrible while Counterbalance can always come down and do something.
- It's a great match for all of the Miracle cards since both need SDT, making a CB Top deck with miracle cards a good match.

Just because CounterTop isn't the tier 1 deck it used to be doesn't make it bad. If anything, the recent miracle cards have given it a second wind.

Also, Hanni is right. CT was missing that "something" to firmly put it into Tier 1 again. A 1cmc Wrath that can be done on your opponents turn sounds like that missing something to me. Doesn't Terminus also help our (lol) Goblins and Merfolk matchups?

I played some Mirror-Matches this afternoon...and waarrgghhh. I do not know what your plan is but I played with UW Miracle and my UWb Miracle. UW vs UW is just dumb. Whoever lands the CB first and doesn't get blown out by Angels/Jace won. Thoughtseizes in the board did improve the MU slightly but not enough. I will test the following:

Mainboard:
+1 Tropical Island
Sideboard:
-1 Surgical Extraction ( unimportant)
+1 Nihil Spellbomb (unimportant)
-2 Disenchant
+2 Krosan Grip
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Engineered Explosives.

I did change the anti-GY-slots but that's unimportant. The important changes are the Grips for the Mirror-matches,which should work wonder - and honestly, who flips a blind CC3? What do you think? Is it worth the extra-nonbasic?

Greetings

I don't know how popular the deck is right now, or will become, but I'd think Elspeth would be good for the mirror. She assassinates opposing Jaces, and survives after a Terminus. The soldier tokens block SCM like a champ, too.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I don't know how popular the deck is right now, or will become, but I'd think Elspeth would be good for the mirror. She assassinates opposing Jaces, and survives after a Terminus. The soldier tokens block SCM like a champ, too.

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Elspeth seems arguably good, but what to cut? My maindeck is even so tight that I play 61 cards (mainly for the Trop).

Greetings

The green splash for SB krosan grips are also something I considered, not sure if the deck is played enough for it to be worth the effort though. If you decide to go this route, I'm pretty sure you need two green sources (most likely 2 trops), it sucks balls to be stuck with a krosan grip because your only green got wasted, however rare that situation might be.

Sounds fair. But if you take a look at my list above you will realise that I am already featuring a black-splash to have a better match against Combo-Decks - mainly SneakAttack. Squeezing a second Tropical in there will be a little tough won't it?