The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

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Originally Posted by Lancer

It's quite odd how Wizards can say Mental Misstep makes blue control stronger and Counterbalance sucked... I'm still failing to see this "making blue control stronger argument"

Anyway, I'm happy MM is legal in Vintage, although I currently dont play the format, but since I've been playing EDH I was wondering if DCI raised the vintage deck size to 100 cards min that maybe the format would be a little more deverse. (Has anybody consider a 100 vintage format?)

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Counterbalance is not the only blue-based way to control the format, it's just the most onerous one because of how boring it is to play against an active Counterbalance lock. MMS slowed the format down and homogenized it enough that more traditional forms of control, like Landstill, became viable again. Furthermore, reactive blue decks were in a far better position strategically to exploit MMS, allowing tempo-based control decks and even reactive midrange decks like RUG to do well.

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Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy

Maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common 1 mana artifact?

Maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that 1 mana artifact shouldn't be competitive.

Also, what is the deal with people abbreviating Mental Misstep as "MMS". How hard is it to know the name of a card?

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You realize this argument can be made about any card right?

Maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common counterspell that counters only 1 CMC cards?

Maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that counterspell that counters only 1 CMC cards shouldn't be competitive.

Oh yea, Counterbalance lock is boring... I remember the argument, it's a long boring lock and prolongs the game... We should ban it...

Gee nothing is more boring for me then watching a player stumbling for 9 cards before the storm effect.

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MMS slowed the format down

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And that's a bad thing?

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homogenized it enough that more traditional forms of control, like Landstill, became viable again.

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Landstill was on the top 10?


Really, the card was banned because too many players invested too much money in their decks to see it becoming casual over night and instead of being creative the players just bitch to wizards until they ban the card. (wow I'm still on the rant)

~ Mental Misstep is a sad, sad ban ~

Awesome ban, though 4 months overdue :cool:

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Originally Posted by xeraseth

You realize this argument can be made about any card right?

Maybe you shouldn't be playing a deck that folds to a relatively common counterspell that counters only 1 CMC cards?

Maybe decks so fragile that they lose to that counterspell that counters only 1 CMC cards shouldn't be competitive.

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I agree, those are true things that you bring up. The thing is though that Vial doesn't warp the format and invalidate decks the way MM did.

You are wrong here... Aether vial warps the format is nearly exactly the same fashion as mental misstep, but with the decks it pushes out are control instead of combo.

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Originally Posted by Draener

You are wrong here... Aether vial warps the format is nearly exactly the same fashion as mental misstep, but with the decks it pushes out are control instead of combo.

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This

Misstep warped the format yes, but any powerful card warps the format, Goyf, Vial, Ad Nauseam, Ravenger, Show and Tell, etc.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Counterbalance is not the only blue-based way to control the format, it's just the most onerous one because of how boring it is to play against an active Counterbalance lock. MMS slowed the format down and homogenized it enough that more traditional forms of control, like Landstill, became viable again. Furthermore, reactive blue decks were in a far better position strategically to exploit MMS, allowing tempo-based control decks and even reactive midrange decks like RUG to do well.

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Playing vs. a CB lock is barrels of fun compared to getting Jace'd out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

Playing vs. a CB lock is barrels of fun compared to getting Jace'd out of the game.

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How about playing vs a CB lock while getting Jace'd out of the game?

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Originally Posted by Oibade

Yet, as you say this, blue decks dominated Top8s in many, many tournaments.
So you are implying that is the way to go?

Also, I have never seen Zoo dominating any Top8 in any tournament in the last 5 years.

And yes, Mother is strong, as is Vial, Lackey and Brainstorm. Welcome to Legacy.

If Vial is such a bother for your decks, play maindeck answers. Vial is a 1 mana artifact that needs time to be effective. And creatures. Also, creatures are vulnerable to removal. As are artifacts.

Also Dredge, with dedicated hate and a little playskill is a perfectly playable matchup. And yet I have to hear a Dredge player whining about graveyard hate

I still do not understand why counter-based decks should be all over any other playable deck in the format.

Aggro, overpowered? It's just a viable strategy. As combo is. Control is there to find the answers, and I find it right that it should not be easy, by the concept itself of control.

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Oh, the delicious irony.

I'm just glad they didn't ban Brainstorm, because I'd literally quit Legacy if they did.

In regards to Mental Misstep, I really don't think it needed banned. Great card, definitely had an effect on the metagame, but it wasn't degenerate. What I would have liked to have seen was some cards unbanned, like Mystical Tutor, Mind Twist, and Land Tax, among others.

However, I'm not upset that it got banned either. In my control decks, I'll simply plug those spots with Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, discard, more removal, etc.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm just glad they didn't ban Brainstorm, because I'd literally quit Legacy if they did.

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Yeah, agreed. Killing Brainstorm would be the formal end of my enjoyment of Legacy.

About MM, WotC never said it was degenerate, just that it was "stifling diversity," or something that that effect.

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Originally Posted by Draener

You are wrong here... Aether vial warps the format is nearly exactly the same fashion as mental misstep, but with the decks it pushes out are control instead of combo.

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This 100 times. The struggle for control is that you can have an answer to Aether Vial, but then you don't have an answer to Wild Nacatl, or Dark Ritual. Control is about having the right answers at the right times. In the early game (aka the weakest part of the game for any control deck), Misstep was ALWAYS the right answer. Which was probably as fair in control as Vial is in tribal, but it fit into too many strategies.

If Brainstorm ever got banned, it would be downright impossible to have the right answers at the right times.

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Originally Posted by Draener

You are wrong here... Aether vial warps the format is nearly exactly the same fashion as mental misstep, but with the decks it pushes out are control instead of combo.

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Number of decks with Aether Vial
01/02/11 - 05/15/11: 49/256 19%

Number of decks with Mental Misstep
05/22/11 - Present: 159/243 65%

Yeah. What were you saying?

CorpT, thank you for keeping it real throughout this thread.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm just glad they didn't ban Brainstorm, because I'd literally quit Legacy if they did.

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As would I. The banning precedent, along with how much money I could get if I cashed out would be too much.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Number of decks with Aether Vial
01/02/11 - 05/15/11: 49/256 19%

Number of decks with Mental Misstep
05/22/11 - Present: 159/243 65%

Yeah. What were you saying?

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you are a voice of reason in the threads here and on mtgs, and for that I thank you.

A lot of control players are bummed they have to deal with multiple archetypes apparently.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Number of decks with Aether Vial
01/02/11 - 05/15/11: 49/256 19%

Number of decks with Mental Misstep
05/22/11 - Present: 159/243 65%

Yeah. What were you saying?

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He wasn't making the point that Aether Vial is as widely used as Mental Misstep. His point was that the arguments made against Mental Misstep in the quoted post are equally applicable to Aether Vial, so it is the height of hypocrisy to then turn around and praise Vial for doing the same kinds of things to the format as Mental Misstep did.

Can you not understand the difference between 65% and 19%?

MM was omnipresent and warped the format. Vial is a good card for aggro decks and is played in them. It doesn't destroy decks but rather enables them, something that MM did not do.

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Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen

He wasn't making the point that Aether Vial is as widely used as Mental Misstep. His point was that the arguments made against Mental Misstep in the quoted post are equally applicable to Aether Vial, so it is the height of hypocrisy to then turn around and praise Vial for doing the same kinds of things to the format as Mental Misstep did.

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The arguments made comparing Mental Misstep's effectiveness against combo decks to Æther Vial's effectiveness against control decks are illogical. If Æther Vial was indeed pushing out control decks the way Misstep pushed out traditional combo decks these past four months, why was it absent in the poll in the B/R List speculation thread, yet Sensei's Top was the number one vote-getter, and Counterbalance number four? Why did the top eight of Grand Prix Columbus (occurring in August of 2010) feature two control decks— 4c Counterbalance and a dedicated BUG Landstill build— yet only one Æther Vial deck? Why was the day two metagame breakdown at said Grand Prix 16 CounterTop, 10 Merfolk, 10 Goblins, 7 Landstill, 1 UB Thopter/Sword (and that's not counting the ambiguous 16 Bant, 4 BUG, 3 RUG, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Stiflenaught)?

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Number of decks with Aether Vial
01/02/11 - 05/15/11: 49/256 19%

Number of decks with Mental Misstep
05/22/11 - Present: 159/243 65%

Yeah. What were you saying?

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- He's saying he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. As much as I hate Aether Vial as a control player, it's fair because without it the aggro player can easily get CB locked or counter-locked mass removaled then Jaced/Tarmogofyed blah blah blah. Also, Vial is still relatively bad against combo decks since it's slow and combo is fast and still takes a crap on aggro decks that are begging to lose to combo like goblins.


Also, if Brainstorm did get banned I'd stop playing Legacy and maybe even magic.