Um, what kind of combo? Tons of discard + counterspells can beat combo. Not beating Burn is the only issue.
-Matt
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Um, what kind of combo? Tons of discard + counterspells can beat combo. Not beating Burn is the only issue.
-Matt
I think you are mistaking this deck for BUG Landstill because you know playing Standstill on a slow clock against combo is dumb. We have more of Jace/Liliana/discard/SCM/Clique here than in Landstill. To recap,
8 counter spells + 5 discard spells + 4 Jace + 3 Liliana + 3 Snapcaster Mage + 1 V. Clique
There's only 6 dead cards against combo and those are the creature removal spells, not counting Pernicious Deed because it blows up artifacts (and enchantments) that power most combo decks. Post sideboarding you take out ~6 cards for more disruption.
This deck does not autolose to combo, however playing against existing combo decks requires understanding of how their combo works. Playtesting develops skills necessary to respond to a threat appropriately and is required.
Maverick and Stoneblade are favorable, the only matchups I'm worried about are Dredge/Loam and RUG Tempo. On the flipside, Nick Spagnolo went 4-0 against RUG Tempo and 0-3 against Maverick. Report can be found here: Invitational In Baltimore *2nd*
Sam Roukas finished 2nd yesterday in Jupiter Games' NELC Qualifier, lost 0-2 in the finals against Dredge.
Semis 2-0 versus Esperblade
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21850772
Round 5 2-0 versus Esperblade
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21844888
Round 4 2-0 versus RUG Tempo
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21843521
Decklist?
-Matt
You can find the Top 8 Decklists here: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/4...8-legacy-decksQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Thanks Mark!
-Matt
I also played at Jupiter this weekend and got 12th going x-2 running the following list that was inspired by Spagnolo's list but I changed up a few things:
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Jace the Mind Sculpter
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Life of the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicous Deed
3 Lilianna of the Veil
3 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Night of Soul Betrayal
1 Darkblast
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Perish
1 Damnation
2 Massacre
1 Wasteland
I played vs:
Rd 1 Goblins-lost 0-2
Rd 2 BUG mirror-won 2-0
Rd 3 BUG tempo-won 2-0
Rd 4 BW tokens-lost 0-2
Rd 5 Sam Blacks Zombie deck-won 2-1
Rd 6 UW Stoneforge-won-2-0
Rd 7 Elves-won 2-0
If you have any questions on the list feel free to ask. I'll most likely be playing something close to this at SCG Providence. I was thinking of trying to add standstill, but then I'd need to add Force maindeck and I don't like Force vs most decks right now. Its obviously never awful, but its also not needed.
Without force of will i often find myself racing to get an awnser to an early treat.
My teammate and i are currently testing this build:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Noxious Revival
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Damnation
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
2 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Polluted Delta
3 U-Fetch
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
So far it's been pretty good, the ability to Gifts for any answer you need, wether it be another counter in the late-game, a killcon when you need it, or just something to lock the board, you always get what you want and due to the nature of the deck you'll easily stretch the game to the point where you can Gift + Counterspell or Gift + Snapcaster/Noxious Revival and drop it during your own turn.
We came to making this deck after playing BUGLandstill for a while, and finding Standstills to not be amazing in this Metagame, and thus needing another way to generate Card Advantage.
Have you considered adding in a Gifts-Rites combo? Or is that in sideboard (speaking of which, could you show us your sideboard?)
Gifts/Rites is not needed due to the gifts/loam package it runs. 1 worms harvest and 1 ravens crime can give decks hell without having to devote dead slots to the combo.
Mordraid, I'm curious to what early threat you need to two for one yourself for. I have 2 ghastly, 3 innocent blood, 1 darkblast to answer any one drop, and on the play add 4 inquisition to that list. Along with that, not many one drops will kill you before you can drop deed, or maelstrom pulse, or liliana.
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
2 Nephalia Drownyard
That's plenty of colorless/ awkward lands. Why do you actually need 2 Nephalia? Isn't one enough considering that you'll start using it late game and you have time to tutor it with Gifts piles?
For the same reason I'd cut Tolaria West. Seeing it in the opening is almost an auto mull if you don't have Bs+ fetch or at least 2 other lands. Just stick with Gifts to find your lands+ loam, should be enough.
What do you think about Massacre over Dread of Night? Several people have asked me about it and the most convincing argument I've heard is that it plays better with Pernicious Deed and you want both against the same decks. My opinion thus far has been that Massacre is worse than Perish and Deed, which they're playing around anyway. Therefore, they don't lose anything by playing around Massacre as well. In most common scenarios (this assumes a Maverick opponent, since vs. Esper you likely wouldn't board in Massacres but would Dread of Night), playing around your sweepers means getting slightly ahead on board and then holding extra creatures. The problem is what happens after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by wweenieking
If you Massacre'd, you presumably drop a planeswalker and bounce/ edict their surviving Knight. Next turn, you will probably need to deal with multiple creatures. In this case, I'd rather have had Perish or Deed so as not to have to waste additional removal or planeswalker activations on creatures that survive.
If you Dread of Night'd, you drop a planeswalker and bounce/ edict their surviving Knight, but next turn any mono-white dorks they held for post-sweeper are stranded in their hand since they're all X/1 except SFM, which many lists are moving away from. Until they draw pridemage or zenith for one, they're SOL. Obviously this doesn't do much if they have a bunch of green idiots in play.
The point is, I've been playing Dread of Night as a post-Deed play or as a with-Perish plan because it punishes them for playing around sweepers (as opposed to just being one) and because it does something enough different that they can't just play around everything.
Also, how do you like Ghastly Demise? I kept wishing mine was a 4th Innocent Blood, but I can think of theoretically common scenarios where Demise is better, so I'm loathe to change it.
Oftentimes with Ghastly Demise, you kill the fatty. While with Innocent Blood you're giving them a choice. Snapcaster + IB doesn't go very well and believe it or not Snapcaster Mage beatdown plan often gets there.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
Maverick can play around Innocent Blood if they want a fatty to survive by fetching Dryad Arbor or flashing Scryb Ranger. 2 Ghastly Demise is optimum since you'd need to fill your yard to take out bigger targets.
For starters I was playing Dread of Night until right before the tournament and Eli told me to play Massacre. The reason, which made sense to me, was vs GW Massare is usually a wrath. It kills Noble, Mom, Pridemage, Arbor, Thalia and other creatures in certain situations. That reason alone made it seem worth it. Also like you said it doesn't play well with Deed. Also, on my way home from Jupiter (I live 4 hrs away in Mass) I was watching Jon play Rion in top 8 on my phone and from what I could tell (small screen and bad internet connection) Jon cast Massacre to wipe all 5 creatures from Rion's board. That was awesome. It gave me faith in the card since I didn't play vs GW once, that and I think there's a rule printed somewhere that says trust Eli when it comes to anything Legacy.
As for ghastly, I was thinking about the 4th blood or the 2nd darkblast, but ultimately chose the ghastly just to have a second targeted removal spell. With darkblast one is enough, that's a card I don't want to draw in multiples. I was very happy with my removal package all day.
As for the wasteland in the board, that was supposed to be the 24th land post board, but before the tourny I added a 24th main deck (2nd Bayou) over the 3rd loam to have another land to play around choke, and also a lot did the games I lost vs RUG in testing (I grinded vs it a lot) were due to mana screw. Just not consistently hitting land drops to put the game away was frustrating, and leaning on loam too much hurt since they have many many ways to counter it. So ill be changing that sb slot to something, I know I don't want or need a 25th land.
Grats on the finish. Seal of Primordium or Nature's Claim both seem like a good 15th card to round out your board.
I've been trying to force a Bob-based BUG list with FoW in the side but there's too much spot removal right now for it to be viable. I'll probably run something similar to your list at Providence.
Has Lingering Souls been a problem for you at all?
How are the sideboarding strategieis with this deck, I'm seeing 2-3 Vendilion Cliques and multiple 1 ofs. When do you board in the Cliques, how do you hate out graveyard strategies, why stick to 1ofs?
Current sideboard is:Quote:
Originally Posted by JeroenC
2x Thoughtseize, 2x Flusterstorm, 2x Counterbalance, 1x Diabolic Edict, 1x Vendilion Clique, 1x Engineered Plague, 1x Iona, Shield of Emeria, 1x Unburial Rites, 4x Leyline of the Void.
Yes, Counterbalance is slightly awkward, but it does give us a good chance against burn (besides the Iona awesomeness) and it's also properly good against combo, even with only 2x Top in the deck.
Currently looking at playing Raven's Crime and Ensnaring Bridge (with extra Liliana, of course). Bridge is proving to be tricky, but the Raven's Crime is awesome.
I might look into cutting the Tolaria West (even though it finds both Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives) for another Island or so, but cutting a Drownyard reduces the clock even further.
how did you guys feel about liliana lately concerning lingering souls?
Not only is she terrible against tokens, but they get value out of her +1 ability.
I was excited to play BUG again since deed got a lot better, however with the new spoiled white "wrath" for 1 mana it seems that UW control got a big boost against creature based strategies. White also fits better to SD.top (and counterbalance) because of enlightened tutor and/or SFM to support thopters. Somehow I cannot find an excuse to play BUG again...