Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui
Basically, either parts you add to the deck increase the chance of DRing a DR target, whether you add a DR or a target, by the same amount. Since that's the case, I would advice adding DRs instead of targets when you already have the target you want, because, at least, DR can work without a DR target.
I agree. In fact, some would argue that Dread Return isn't there for the DR target at all! :tongue:
My concern, though, is how well/badly the deck is affected by the different "DR to DR-Target ratios" being used. This might just be nit-picking, though, and it might not even be worth bothering about; it's just a matter of curiosity for now, but I could be proven otherwise given that we're dealing with around 4-7 (or maybe higher?) cards in our 75-card builds.
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.
Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
This is how I've felt about Dredge for a while. I'm certain the core of Dredge is strong enough to topple any opponent with tight play. That's why I'm not a big fan of DR-targets. My list is 59/60 the same as his, fwiw.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.
Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
That's true. The Dredge Core by itself is pretty strong already. All the hate is irrelevant if your Opp does not draw into it even by mulliganing and you have god draws all day long.
Of course there are lists with maximized chances on good hands. But even these lists may fail you in critical moments.
For me the Flayerlist works best at the moment. I get a lot better hands with it then with the Quodlaserlist which seems a bit weird by analyzing the lists in a mathmatical matter :-)
Recently a Manaless List Top3'ed which also states what Hollywood said. Lucky matchups (in this case no Leylines/Cages/perhaps Combo) may alter the outcome. The Manaless list is also not as good at mulliganing as the LEDlists are. In fact its pretty much unable to mulligan at all. All the pilot could do is play tight and prey for no Leylines/bad hand.
I encountert 3 zero turn Leylines lately in G3 while I was double-extracted G2 right off the bat and there was not much I could do against it despite PImp/Moeba/Thugh beatdown which was a bit to slow against Hive Mind (although I had some time because a could have paid at least two pacts with my Lands/LEDs :-P). And I had potential 1 Turnkill hands in both games (kept LED in cuz I didn't set him on Leylines).
Sometimes Dredge just dies to massive hate. Sometimes it dies to itself. And then there are those days where you play tight, draw good, dredge better and are unstoppable :-)
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
Could it be that this statement is true more often than we realize? In fact, with the variety of configurations available (LED/less, DR/less, DR-target/less, etc.) that have subtle differences and are all able to place well, I won't be surprised if this statement will actually able to explain why all these lists are doing well.
Someone mentioned this a while back (in the old thread I think): "We should all choose the configuration that works for us and do our best to understand how to pilot our chosen build to victory" (or something like that).
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
I think that if the pilot is good, and the deck doesnt crap all over itself, it will win. The reason is that the deck offers a variety of ways to attack other decks. It can shift roles in matchups like no other deck can- It can play combo v. aggro, aggro v. control, and even control v. combo. Name any other deck that can do that.
Also- the extra benefit: nearly nobody will test aganist dredge because it's a unenjoyable experience for 98% of people, so often they are left at a loss at how to play the matchup. These people think that if you jam in 4 graveyard hate cards in the side, you will win v. Dredge. This isn't true, to our benefit.
I've had many people misplay horribly because they didnt know what my cards did- ex: people not knowing how to deal with Bridges, Surgical Extraction on the wrong card, popping a crypt early.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.
Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
I agree with all your statements (although the same could be said for any deck I think haha), but I don't feel like his list is suboptimal in any way. His first placement in March led to a few changes to his sideboard for the LCL tournament. Seems to me that this list was born from experience and testing. But then again, Dredge is an archetype that is completely open to interpretation. While we are here discussing the difference of +/- 5 cards and the dynamism added by DR, we forget that that the core of the deck is fundamentally the same. Regardless of the list, tight play and good draws/dredges will bring you out on top.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*
From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*
From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?
@Koby
Totally down :) I'll see you at the shop sometime and we'll grind this one out.
As for the Maverick perspective, there are a few things that we're afraid of, but it's mostly Scavenging Ooze. Thalia can be rough if you back it with Wasteland, Teeg shuts down Breakthrough and Dread Return, and you can always GSZ for Dryad Arbor, then pop a Wasteland on it to nuke our bridges.
People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1. I personally have not tested against Maverick, but from what I've read, people are starting to opt a strategy that keeps in LEDs to maintain the chance of a more explosive start. Because Ooze is constrained by mana, you can actually just outrace it sometimes, especially if you have a Dread Return plan. The Maverick player will have to exile too many cards and won't be able to keep up.
That's how I've seen it. But anyone else please feel free to correct me or add ontop of this.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1.
Unless I'm missing something here, I don't find this to be very reliable, as playing Darkblast this way will still require 2 lands. I believe that Firestorm is that card that you would want for this job.
I hope that helps.
Regards,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?
Game one, the biggest worries are a quick jitte or scavenging ooze. The best way to address that is to overwhelm as quick as possible with as many zombies as possible. Dread Returning a big troll doesn't usually work in this matchup because of MoM.
Game Two, the enlightened tutor into crypt/wheel usually causes problems. Again, speed is the best way to address this, backuped with chains/claims.
Oh and wasteland can randomly put us out the game if we are not careful. At the same time I have seen wasteland as a time walk for me when I have multiple lands.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Also, Knight can be devastating if dropped turn 2 on the play.
