[Deck] UWR Delver

Hi guys,

I'm currently playing RUG Delver (with some local success) but thinking on playing UWR just because it has TNN & some very sweet sideboard cards (RIP, MM, Electrickery etc.).
What do you guys think of Electrickery? In RUG I can play Rough/Tumble but it would kill all my creatures in UWR because they are smaller than Goyf+Goose and TNN has only protection from opponent damage etc...
It's great versus DnT, Elves! A Instant massremoval which only hits the opponent creatures for 2 mana sound quiet nice to me.
Plus it kills flying creatures too! Fuck you Clique and Flickerwhisp:tongue:

Greetings

Anyone out there who feels Stifle should be replaced?
If Team America gets rid of this OK card, can't/shouldn't we?

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Originally Posted by klaus

Anyone out there who feels Stifle should be replaced?
If Team America gets rid of this OK card, can't/shouldn't we?

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I guess it depends on your build.

UWR extremely tempo = stifle + snap - SFM - equip

UWR tempo/mid range = - stifle - snap + SFM + equip

I guess it is a matter of personal preference/given meta.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Anyone out there who feels Stifle should be replaced?
If Team America gets rid of this OK card, can't/shouldn't we?

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Although I am new to this deck, I think that we are talking about two different "decks" maybe comparable to the relation
between TES and ANT. (I know the differences between them. I hope that this comparison is not too strong...)
Nonetheless I am not sure if two threads would be a clever idea. :really:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I guess it depends on your build.

UWR extremely tempo = stifle + snap - SFM - equip

UWR tempo/mid range = - stifle - snap + SFM + equip

I guess it is a matter of personal preference/given meta.

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I don't agree I think that if you want to play extreme tempo You should play RUG, WUR extreme tempo is just strictly worse as RUG in my opinion. I do think WUR delver is a better deck tho because you are so much better at trading resources winning from behind and topdecking. I think that playing stifle in WUR delver is jsut wrong.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Anyone out there who feels Stifle should be replaced?
If Team America gets rid of this OK card, can't/shouldn't we?

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I think cutting stifle in this deck is ok, in RUG Delver it would be strictly false but in this deck with his higher manacurve (SFM->Sneak in Equip etc, TNN) you mosty will have no time/mana to hold up 1 mana for stifle + SFM, TNN.
So yes I will probably cut the stifles and pick up 3 Spell Pierce and 1 x card or something.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

I think cutting stifle in this deck is ok, in RUG Delver it would be strictly false but in this deck with his higher manacurve (SFM->Sneak in Equip etc, TNN) you mosty will have no time/mana to hold up 1 mana for stifle + SFM, TNN.
So yes I will probably cut the stifles and pick up 3 Spell Pierce and 1 x card or something.

Greetings

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Just 4 spell pierce. not 3 spell pierce + 1 something. I would jus tplay the same exact list as Owen Turtenwald plays And I'm not sure from which list I'm cutting the stifles.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

I think cutting stifle in this deck is ok, in RUG Delver it would be strictly false but in this deck with his higher manacurve (SFM->Sneak in Equip etc, TNN) you mosty will have no time/mana to hold up 1 mana for stifle + SFM, TNN.
So yes I will probably cut the stifles and pick up 3 Spell Pierce and 1 x card or something.

Greetings

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Just 4 spell pierce. not 3 spell pierce + 1 something. I would jus tplay the same exact list as Owen Turtenwald plays And I'm not sure from which list I'm cutting the stifles.

I think Stifle is still a solid choice in this deck. You will get free wins with this card, destroy those greedy 3-4-colour-manabases and most importantly defend your manabase.
This seems especially important in a meta that will shift more to tempo decks again (as I see that coming in my area). Stifle will strongly improve the tempo MU's.

Moreover I see flaws in the argumentation above as you're playing 4 Spell Pierce instead of the Stifles, with one argument being: "you can't hold up Stifle in this deck", but in those situations you can't hold up Pierce as well. I really think Turtenwald's victory was more due his excellent playing skills, maybe combined with MU's in which his maindeck might be superior (Death and Taxes, Elves...), than to his new "innovative" decklist.

Although both approaches might be very much viable, I prefer a tempo list with Stifles, as I hate these situations where your opponent just waste-timewalks you and you sit there with your 2cc and 3cc spells unable to do anything.


I went 5 : 0 (4 : 0 : 1) at our last local tournament (+30 players) with a list packing both Stoneforge and Stifle.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Jitse

Just 4 spell pierce. not 3 spell pierce + 1 something. I would jus tplay the same exact list as Owen Turtenwald plays And I'm not sure from which list I'm cutting the stifles.

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4 Pierce is too many MB for my taste, I want more TNN's in the MB than turtenwald played.
It is a good list but not a perfect one for every meta in every country!

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

4 Pierce is too many MB for my taste, I want more TNN's in the MB than turtenwald played.
It is a good list but not a perfect one for every meta in every country!

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I think 4 pierces is quite overpowered in the current meta, It protects yor dudes from getting countered/removed and it counters the best spell in the format in brainstorm. I think it will be quite hard to win your combo matchups without these and drawing mutiple TNN's can be really bad. In the europian meta there's less sneak and show but at the other hand more ANT/TES builds so the percantage of combo decks won't be that different. I think that your undervaluing Spell pierces power in basically any given matchup and the importance of a low CMC on your cards when you play with cards like daze and wastelands. I think higher up the CMC of the deck is a terrible thing to do since this deck often wins by having 'card advantage' to put it this way out of having less lands. Meaning that you just have more nonland cards. I played a couple of matches with this deck recently and I'm really suprised about the power of spell pierce against non-combo decks like the mirror and UW miracles. They were just so much better in my expierence then I expected them to be. That really convinced me that I should have 4 main.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Anyone out there who feels Stifle should be replaced?
If Team America gets rid of this OK card, can't/shouldn't we?

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Not me!

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Although I am new to this deck, I think that we are talking about two different "decks" maybe comparable to the relation
between TES and ANT. (I know the differences between them. I hope that this comparison is not too strong...)
Nonetheless I am not sure if two threads would be a clever idea. :really:

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This I think is really true. Strange working on a deck for BoM and its UWR delver and the UWR delver thread doesnt really say anything useful to the thing that you are building... But it also is not helpful when people talk about stifle, as it would seem worse in more midrange builds...

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Originally Posted by Jitse

I don't agree I think that if you want to play extreme tempo You should play RUG, WUR extreme tempo is just strictly worse as RUG in my opinion. I do think WUR delver is a better deck tho because you are so much better at trading resources winning from behind and topdecking. I think that playing stifle in WUR delver is jsut wrong.

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Couldnt disagree more. WUR has many more answers to threats than RUG. It can play answers to goyf maindeck, as well as the devastating RiP on the board. It plays more land which is great for the tempo mirror, If you think playing stifle in UWR is wrong then you've never landed a geist turn 3 when they have no permanents with daze backup... I think the tempo version is harder to play (no insta-wins from unanswered batterskull), but surely we're after the best deck rather than the easiest. It does seem like stifle is not a card to everyones taste though :). I guess without stifle, the deck becomes much more 1 dimensional, and honestly esper stoneblade is a better shell for making batterskulls in...

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Originally Posted by zerzab11

I think Stifle is still a solid choice in this deck. You will get free wins with this card, destroy those greedy 3-4-colour-manabases and most importantly defend your manabase.
This seems especially important in a meta that will shift more to tempo decks again (as I see that coming in my area). Stifle will strongly improve the tempo MU's.

Moreover I see flaws in the argumentation above as you're playing 4 Spell Pierce instead of the Stifles, with one argument being: "you can't hold up Stifle in this deck", but in those situations you can't hold up Pierce as well. I really think Turtenwald's victory was more due his excellent playing skills, maybe combined with MU's in which his maindeck might be superior (Death and Taxes, Elves...), than to his new "innovative" decklist.

Although both approaches might be very much viable, I prefer a tempo list with Stifles, as I hate these situations where your opponent just waste-timewalks you and you sit there with your 2cc and 3cc spells unable to do anything.


I went 5 : 0 (4 : 0 : 1) at our last local tournament (+30 players) with a list packing both Stoneforge and Stifle.

Greetings

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I think it is amazing holding stifle up in this deck. The fewer permanents they have while you are making geists the better :). In this deck I would rather hold up T1 stifle than make a T1 delver. Except maybe against combo... But also - spell pierce is good in the deck. Discard is a great answer to geist / TNN which it is good against. Also good vs liliana (my worst nightmare). If only we could free up some room for both... Maybe.... The stoneforge package has to go? XD.

The Spanish Tunnel King

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Geist[...]
The Spanish Tunnel King

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I'll take any bet that Geist will disappear from top placing lists entirely. Everyone who can afford TNN will switch. The only strategy it's better against is Combo, nuff said. I will even go there and claim Geist will disappear from Legacy alltogether.

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Originally Posted by klaus

I'll take any bet that Geist will disappear from top placing lists entirely. Everyone who can afford TNN will switch. The only strategy it's better against is Combo, nuff said. I will even go there and claim Geist will disappear from Legacy alltogether.

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You're probably correct, because magic these days seems to be an exercise in groupthink. Geist is better if it is your only threat, which you intend to land on an empty board. TNN is better in a midrange strategy (against other midrange decks...).

The Spanish Tunnel King

Recently picked up this deck as it seems to be the best deck to play TNN in. :tongue:

Anyway, I'm playing 19 lands, 1 Island instead of the 4th Tundra. What are your thoughts on that? I feel like without Stifle (although I am currently thinking about putting back 3) the lone basic goes a long way in making sure we don't get Waste-locked.:smile:

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Originally Posted by klaus

Anyone out there who feels Stifle should be replaced?
If Team America gets rid of this OK card, can't/shouldn't we?

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Team America plays Hymn to Tourach instead of Stifle. A T2 Hymn might often act as mana denial, discarding 1 or 2 lands.

You'll note that some TA lists play Stifle in the sideboard for some matchups: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=89531

Also, some TA players prefer the Stifle plan, and I think that's an avenue worth exploring:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post753861

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post762894


If I were to play UWR Delver, I would go with 2-3 Stifle (probably 2), like Next Level Threshold. If I Stifle a fetch game one, my opponent will be afraid G2 and play more conservatively. If I don't use Stifle, my opponent might get greedy and think I'm on the "no Stifle" version, and I can catch them off-guard.

I don't play this deck atm. But just gotta jump in on the stifle thing.. While I agree that both versions are very viable I personally wouldn't dismiss stifle so quickly. It is a very skill intensive card and will get underrated by a lot of newer players just because they don't recognize it's actual power level. Legacy will always be a format with a lot of greedy 3c decks and most of the other decks run fetch aswell.. For what it's worth Id much rather play vs a stifleless build with let's say stoneblade. It's not like u can't board them out g2/3 if needed. I also feel like a lot of pple don't play the card because they don't want to keep mana open.. But let's face it- stifle is still good and not a card that has to be played t1-2. Anyways just my opinion. I agree spell pierce is pretty good and should be in there as 3 off probably^

So went 4-0-1 into top 4 at a local tournament yesterday with the list Owen Turtenwald played. I didn't play stifle and I think that it's wrong in this deck to play stifle (altrough I would always play it in RUG delver), I don't really mind keeping up 1 mana during my opponents turn but I just think it's not good enough now geists gets cutted. I think playing 4 spell pierce and 4 stifle is just to much and spell pierce is completely overpowered. It's so important in basically any matchup. I just think there's nothing in the deck that's worse as a stifle.

don't know. Pierce goodness is strictly correlated to the amount of mana denial and Stifle is half of our mana denial strategy

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Originally Posted by Jitse

So went 4-0-1 into top 4 at a local tournament yesterday with the list Owen Turtenwald played. I didn't play stifle and I think that it's wrong in this deck to play stifle (altrough I would always play it in RUG delver), I don't really mind keeping up 1 mana during my opponents turn but I just think it's not good enough now geists gets cutted. I think playing 4 spell pierce and 4 stifle is just to much and spell pierce is completely overpowered. It's so important in basically any matchup. I just think there's nothing in the deck that's worse as a stifle.

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Nice result.
But I think that you made your statement before and several others (including me) disagree on your opinion. I play Stifle as a 4off and it feels smooth and alright.