[Deck] Aluren

Chalice of the Void @ 1 is a concern for the deck, but mainly because it stops Brainstorm, Chain of Vapor and Cabal Therapy. Against the common Ancient Tomb Aggro-Control decks packing Chalice of the Void, if you manage to drop Aluren out, you will usually go Necropotence with Wall of Blossoms and Raven Familiar in order to drop a few Tarmogoyfs out, return their fat guys home with Man-o'-War recursion and use Force of Will to stop these if needed. Then you win through standard beatdown. You would need a bit of life to do so efficiently, but this is still a very solid B-plan when facing Chalice of the Void. Tarmogoyf really opened a lot of options for Aluren, and Chalice of the Void @ 2 is much more problematic (fortunately, Chain of Vapor works fine there). Pernicious Deeds come in pretty much all the time.

Mesmeric Fiend is just here for situations where you do not feel safe passing the turn after going off (very unlikely), as it allows you to Mind Twist the opponent. Its advantage over other cards is that it is not dead before going off, it will act as another Cabal Therapy if you want to clear Force of Will, and will then make your real Therapies better.

SB is still pretty random. I'm not sold on Leyline of the Void either, which is why I mentionned Heap Doll or Offalsnout. Extirpate works fine too.

I do not like Lim Dul's Vault. UB is indeed a serious concern, as well is the card loss off it. I'd run the 4th Intuition over Lim Dul's Vault if I had room for that, or even an Impulse or the old Chord of Calling tech we had at GP Lille.

cotv for 1 is a joke, at least forme cuz i huse recruiters and have auriok champion... cotv for 1? ok ill gain a lot of life... mesmeric fiend seems excessive seeing how you can therapy and mindtwist their hand also.

How can Mesmeric Fiend Mind Twist (assuming x > 1) an opponent. Won't they get their card back after each bounce (returning to hand does trigger "leaves play" trigger, doesn't it)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vetinari

How can Mesmeric Fiend Mind Twist (assuming x > 1) an opponent. Won't they get their card back after each bounce (returning to hand does trigger "leaves play" trigger, doesn't it)?

---

Yes, it does trigger the leaves play -ability. But if you bounce it while CIP-trigger is on the stack, the "leaves play" ability triggers and resolves first. After that, the CIP-trigger resolves, removing a card from opponent's hand from the game and the stack is now empty.

You respond to the come into play trigger by returning the Mesmeric Fiend to your hand. This way the leave play trigger will resolve before the card is actually removed from their hand and the cards you remove afterwards will never be returned.

Imperial Recruiter was bad before Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf made it worse. Auriok Champion is pure trash. Playing cards which are only good when you have won already seems like a poor concept in a Control deck. And if you want to play a Combo deck, why bother with a 2GG Enchantment when you could play a 2BB Storm Sorcery instead?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toad

And if you want to play a Combo deck, why bother with a 2GG Enchantment when you could play a 2BB Storm Sorcery instead?

---

Aluren seems very combo-ish to me on most finishes. I do play Brain Freeze though and a lot of the finishes are just: lay down Aluren, drop Cavern Harpy and pick it back up about 20 times, play Brain Freeze. The infinite life loop usually takes longer to setup so it requires more control.

The combo finish does not mean the deck is not a Control deck by heart. The overall synergy between Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy is too slow to be fit into a real Combo shell. Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond exist for this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toad

The combo finish does not mean the deck is not a Control deck by heart. The overall synergy between Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy is too slow to be fit into a real Combo shell. Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond exist for this.

---

I run a ton of cantrips to find the pieces and then combo off once I have the answer in hand. There are so many ways to combo that the average opponent can't respond adequately in many cases, even if they have sideboarded in hate against what they saw last time. Usually if the game goes 7 or 8 turns I'm going to lose but one of the combos tends to come out pretty reliably by turn 4 or so. That's why I see this more as a combo deck and less as a control deck. I do play an offbeat version of Aluren but it tends to beat Aggro decks handily, combo decks most of the time and has some trouble against dedicated control. This is the list I've been playing around with.

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Impulse
3x Intuition
3x Raven Familiar
2x Cavern Harpy
2x Man-o'war
1x Eternal Witness
1x Essence Warden
1x Storm Entity
2x Living Wish
3x Aluren
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Brain Freeze

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard

1x Raven Familiar
1x Essence Warden
1x Eternal Witness
1x Cavern Harpy
4x Leyline of The Void
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle

I have to simply disagree about running essence warden. The decks dropping chalice at 1 are fast aggro decks, capable of direct damage (aggro loam, red 5/3, dragon stompy, faerie stompy). Simply dropping 2-3 goyfs, and 4-5 utility creatures is not going to get you the win. Against these decks, you really need infinite life if you want to win.

I really like stalker, and im not sold on fiend at all. Pre-combo it has little effect unless you have a therapy to accompany it. Having 2 black sources in play at once is rare, making fiend + therapy a 2 turn combo. Post-combo, i can't see it doing anything 30 force of wills can't.

@foolofa, goblins would rip that list a new one. The mana-base also seems shaky. 20 lands in all, with 4 basics, 6 fetches, and the deck having a heavy need for all 3 colors. Also, the claim to combo faster must be a joke when running a 62 card deck, with 3 aluren, 3 ravens, 2 man-o-wars, 2 harpy, and random living wishes. I would suggest you try out a list like me or toad runs, and you will quickly realize some of the shortcomings of yours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honz

@foolofa, goblins would rip that list a new one. The mana-base also seems shaky. 20 lands in all, with 4 basics, 6 fetches, and the deck having a heavy need for all 3 colors. Also, the claim to combo faster must be a joke when running a 62 card deck, with 3 aluren, 3 ravens, 2 man-o-wars, 2 harpy, and random living wishes. I would suggest you try out a list like me or toad runs, and you will quickly realize some of the shortcomings of yours.

---

First of all it's 60, not 62.

Secondly, have you never run a deck with 12 real cantrips and 6 more pseudo-cantrips? Believe me when I tell you that finding things is not a problem at all. Goblins is a 50/50 match, actually a bit better because they often can't resist the urge to try to control the mana with Rishadan Ports and the cantrips dig for more of it faster than they can shut it down. This creates a silly number of extra early turns which they can't afford to give up because they are going to wind up with me at infinite life or trying to chump block a 50/50 Storm Entity sooner than they realize.

Goblins should be an easy matchup, not a 50/50 because they only have four wastelands and 4 ports for disruption. Ok, maybe if the play earwig squad it could get messy if he resolves, but other than that, it should be easy. Test the different variations and see what one you like the best and play that. At the very least you will be able to play against the other versions of alluren better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

Goblins should be an easy matchup, not a 50/50 because they only have four wastelands and 4 ports for disruption. Ok, maybe if the play earwig squad it could get messy if he resolves, but other than that, it should be easy. Test the different variations and see what one you like the best and play that. At the very least you will be able to play against the other versions of alluren better.

---

With my variation goblins speed can be problematic, which is why it's 50/50. I need turn 4 to go off and often turn 5 or even 6. Other aggro themes are much more manageable with the exception of mono-black and BW variants which are ust a bad matchup.

Dreadstill seems to be a problem if Counterbalance comes into play. Any suggestions? I find 3 Krosan Grip in the sideboard to be almost the only way to go.

My mistake, it is indeed 60 cards, however only 18 of them are lands. Between port, sinkhole, bloodmoon, wasteland, stifle, vindicate, mulligans, and mana-screw, i am wondering if you ever have 4 mana on turn 4. I can't see the deeds ever being cast either.

If you think the deck should run more cantrips, that is a reasonable idea. If you want people to take this idea seriously, you need to develope a decent list and present some testing results with that list. Explain some of the pluses and minuses of each list, and the match ups where each does better. Simply posting a janky list and saying it is better will not get any one any where.

Splashing the fourth color (red) in a deck running 18 lands and 0 pseudo-lands, for a card like storm entity is just stupid. Along side the storm entity, you have a random brain freeze. I must point out again that you are running 2 man-o-wars, 2 harpy, 3 aluren, 3 ravens, and 2 random living wishes. Why would you ever run less than 4 alurens in a deck where you are trying to drop aluren as soon as possible?

I suggest you try out toad's list, and you will quickly realize which is better. Fix your mana-base, take out the jank, and come back with an improved list and some testing results.

Dreadstill is a hard matchup. I think the best plan is just to play aggresively, if you can. Use your therapies as soon as you can, and try to drop some creatures to put pressure on their life. Remember that chain of vapor is an amazing card here too. Postboard you have deeds, and extirpate. I have tried 2-3 grips in the board, but i never really liked them. Have you tried extirpates?

Quote:

---

I have to simply disagree about running essence warden. The decks dropping chalice at 1 are fast aggro decks, capable of direct damage (aggro loam, red 5/3, dragon stompy, faerie stompy). Simply dropping 2-3 goyfs, and 4-5 utility creatures is not going to get you the win. Against these decks, you really need infinite life if you want to win.

---

These decks are more Aggro-Control than fast Aggro, and they will usually not play a lot of creatures. If Chalice of the Void for 1 is out - preventing you from casting Essence Warden for example -, the main plan is to get a few Tarmogoyfs out and then use your Man-o'-Wars to return their guys to their hand. Then Force of Will them if needed. This usually works fine. It "simply" demands a tad more life than if you could cast Essence Warden. This is only a real concern Game 1 because of Pernicious Deeds after boarding.

Counterbalance is not a really huge problem for Aluren because of the very diversified mana curve. You need to "test it" whenever you feel like doing something relevant. Krosan Grip is a bad solution to Counterbalance IMHO, it is too narrow and the SB slots are very precious. Pernicious Deed is great and versatile. Engineered Explosives works fine too and perfectly plays around Counterbalance if you ramp to 4+ lands.

Quote:

---

Counterbalance is not a really huge problem for Aluren because of the very diversified mana curve. You need to "test it" whenever you feel like doing something relevant. Krosan Grip is a bad solution to Counterbalance IMHO, it is too narrow and the SB slots are very precious. Pernicious Deed is great and versatile. Engineered Explosives works fine too and perfectly plays around Counterbalance if you ramp to 4+ lands.

---

I'm not convinced about this. Countertop is very difficult to control as soon as they find a 2CC card on top. Chalice@2 is a real problem actually, if you can't find chain of vapor, countertop@2 is even more since it can be at 1 at the same time. It may be too slow or too narrow to justify a SB slot other than deed, but don't say it's not a "huge problem".

With Counterbalance locked on a 2CC (on Chalice at 2), you can still use Chain of Vapor, Cabal Therapy, Raven Familiar, Force of Will, Aluren and Man-o'-War. This is really all you need if you are attempting to go off. Blocking the 2CC slot is actually pretty useless unless you can do this before a Tarmogoyf is out and apply serious pressure afterwards. They also need to keep that 2CC on top, so they need Sensei's Divining Top too. All these parameters make me say that Counterbalance is definitly not a huge problem.

Counterbalance and Chalice @ 3 are a completely different story, but these should not happen to often.

i personally have found pernicous deed too vulnerable and slow for the format... against the decks with disruption and that are quick, It is too slow, and the slower decks usually pack stifle or counterspells to deal with it. I have just been playing vexing shusher versus dreadstill because they usually only have four outs versus him (maybe more but not many) and he protects the combo pretty well. Also I have found versus dreadstill the easiest plan is to board out goyfs and wall of roots because they can't block nought effectively and get countered by counterbalance. I then board in more three drops like uktabi orangutan and such... it seems to work and the matchup does not turn out to be too bad. I have only played versus Uw dreadstill and the Ug dreadstill seems more of a problem with goyfs in there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honz

My mistake, it is indeed 60 cards, however only 18 of them are lands. Between port, sinkhole, bloodmoon, wasteland, stifle, vindicate, mulligans, and mana-screw, i am wondering if you ever have 4 mana on turn 4. I can't see the deeds ever being cast either.

---

When you have somebody actively trying to kill your mana base you're going to lose most of those games with the standard Aluren lists as well as my list. That's one of the few bad matchups for the archetype.

Mulligans happen very rarely, because like Threshold there are very few opening hands that don't look manageable and like Threshold there are very few nuts draws to fish for. The average opening hand in this list is 2 cantrips, 2 land and 3 of something else, that's almost always playable.

18 lands is what the list I put up supports. Go ahead and add a few lands to it and then look at your average hand on turn 4 and realize you are long on lands most of the time.

I realized after I posted the list that it really did not belong here and started a thread down in the New and Developmental decks forum. The use of cantrips and the flow of play that that creates makes this too different from the standard Aluren decks for comparisons to really work well.

very true, I play 23 lands, that isn't a minor thing. maybe a difference in lands by 2, but 5 ?!?! best of luck foolofatook wherever you post.

On another note, what are good sb cards vs dreadstill, i was thinking choke (yes ik i play islands) but they most likely side in krosan grips anyway so it would not be that helpful. Im currently playing shusher but that guy doesnt stop grip and gets shackled or stp a lot. Ik it sounds bad, but what about mind shatter? could that work?