[Deck] bUrg Tempo

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Originally Posted by Tormod

I must admit, this ashiok discussion is lost on me. I'm having trouble understanding how paying 3 Mana for exile 3, then next turn using the - ability to bring one of creatures into play, and then being able swing with said creature the following turn. Is a good line of play for a tempo deck. I think I rather have Scavenging Ooze or True-Name Nemesis.

So to play Ashiok, you don't deal any damage until the 3rd turn she comes into play.

What am I missing?

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The point is that sometimes the tempo strategy will not work but instead a grind starts, which "Rug / Burg" usually has trouble to win. It's rarely about exiling cards, but about getting some "tempo" by forcing them to deal with your walker or you will create an immense board advantage pretty fast. That's the theory behind it at least. I haven't got to play with it yet...

The example with Veteran Explorer was weird though. If they don't have it on turn 1... arrogant as I am I think they are dead by then. Ashiok would seal the deal pretty fast though, and being able to snatch their creatures sounds sweet. Exiling is also quite strong against them. If they nutdraw us then Ashiok probably sucks, but so do all cards of our deck then...

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Yup good points :-). But we are talking about a SB card and not about 2 MD TNN' replacing our Goyfs in the lists. It is a 3-drop that can grind the opponent out and has the potential to grab 1-x creatures. 2-for-1s are always costier. TNN is a 1 for 1 for 3.

Threads or Mind Harness are limited. Ashiok can make for example use of the come to battlefield triggers of the DnT creatures or steal a non-green/red creature with CC>3. It saves SB space due to the broad applications.

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But it requires an empty board or you to have blockers because it can't defend itself. Also, there is always a nonzero chance that you will exile three non-creatures MULTIPLE turns in a row.

Bottom line is it does nothing to affect the board or your hand the turn it etb.

Don't get me wrong: I like the idea of having a Planeswalker I can use in the late-game once both players are in top-deck mode. Jacob Wilson played a Jace in his RUG Delver sideboard when he won the Seattle SCG Legacy Open. I think Ashiok might be good in that role against creature decks (and possibly Miracles, since it foils their Top shenanigans). But I think we shouldn't play it for the wrong reasons. It doesn't reduce the opponent's threat density: yes, you can get lucky and exile 3 creatures at once; but you can also get unlucky and exile 3 lands. Also, it's not a given that it would mess up their cantripping: if they cantrip correctly, they can actually use Ashiok to their advantage.

BTW, since we are considering Ashiok, couldn't we also consider other planeswalkers, such as Jace or Ral Zarek? Since Jacob Wilson was playing a 1-of Jace in his RUG Delver sideboard, couldn't we also consider it in bUrg? Deathrite Shaman lets us cast it earlier too :)

Florian Koch plays Ral Zarek in his SB and was always a fan. We started with Jace, too, but CC4 is too ambitious. Jacob's play style of laying down a land per turn is controversial as we want to use unnecessary lands in our hands for BS (aka Ancestral Recall) ;-) That is why cc4 is out of question for me. If it was not the case, I would crush control, the tempo mirrors and the decay matchups with Thrun ;-)

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

Turn 1 (you): Cast Shaman
Turn 1 (him): Cast Delver
Turn 2 (you): Ashiok, mill 3, exiling a Goyf (BTW, I still have no idea why you always talk about the "graveyard" when talking about Ashiok, since it exiles cards!). Ashiok has 5 loyalty.
Turn 2 (him): Flip Delver, attack Ashiok down to 2.
Turn 3 (you): Bolt Delver, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok, Ashiok dies?

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Worth noting at this point your opponent has established Ashiok as a concern and apparently doesn't have the burn spell to finish it off. The bUrg Player could elect to Bolt the Delver and tick Ashiok up again, bringing the Planeswalker out of burn range and perhaps exiling more threats.

My understanding of the card's purpose is that it's a fast form of disruption to library manipulation, it pulls/distracts the opponents resources due to it's high starting loyalty, and if one can utilize it on a favorable board position it provides inevitability - either closing a game quickly with subsequent +2 -X turns exploding board presence, or slowly by eliminating options from the opponents deck for a couple turns at a time and deploying threats without expending Ashiok's loyalty.

Admittedly 3 mana is a lot and this card requires multiple turns to make an impact. I don't know that it's great, but from what Sasan is describing I can see some potential.

I'm still testing with Ashiok but I think that it is best saved for a stalled board or a situation where we can protect it. And I agree that milling with Ashiok is like rolling the dice if it doesn't live long enough to minus. Just keep it alive long enough to minus.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4IwASk_gpJ0

:-) Great Play by mog.

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It's a pleasure to watch Ed play! It was very inspiring when I saw it the first time.

Regarding the Nic Fit vs RUG/bUrg matchup
I've played A LOT with both Nic Fit and RUG and it's more or less impossible for RUG to win unless they draw perfect or the Nic Fit player is bad (something that usually seems to be the case). bUrg has a way better matchup thanks to Fire Covenant. Pre-board the mu is hard but afterwards it's more of less impossible to loose, unless you make horrible play mistakes. Suddenly their bombs can be unarmoured. Sure, I've lost games when I've drawn dead and didn't manage to flip Delver for like five turns, etc but that's rather unlikely..

Haven't played bUrg that much BUT it feels way better then RUG over all. Sure, it's harder to navigate but with the right decisions you've (at least) the possibility to beat any deck, even the hard matchups for RUG.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

If it was not the case, I would crush control, the tempo mirrors and the decay matchups with Thrun ;-)

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You know, it wouldn't take much to persuade me to run an "uncounterable" hex-proof, regenerating Troll in the sb. What the heck, I'm going to give it a go at my next local.

In terms of finding a card that can grind out games, how about a Jitte? I know it doesn't work with Goose but we have 9-10 creatures that it would, and if you run a clique or something that could work.

I've also considered Scavenging Ooze

Bitterblossom could also be an interesting candidate as the "grind" card we're looking for. Would make having a Jitte even more techy and tempting.

(disclaimer: I'm thinking out-loud and sharing my thoughts as they come to me)

been playing this deck on cockatrice

I still lose to BUG shardless

THe matchup isn't any different than playign with RUG

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

been playing this deck on cockatrice

I still lose to BUG shardless

THe matchup isn't any different than playign with RUG

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The matchup is fair and around 50/50. Perhaps you can tell me what is the most difficult part for you in the matchup so that we can analyze how you can change your playstyle ;-).

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Originally Posted by Tormod

You know, it wouldn't take much to persuade me to run an "uncounterable" hex-proof, regenerating Troll in the sb. What the heck, I'm going to give it a go at my next local.

In terms of finding a card that can grind out games, how about a Jitte? I know it doesn't work with Goose but we have 9-10 creatures that it would, and if you run a clique or something that could work.

I've also considered Scavenging Ooze

Bitterblossom could also be an interesting candidate as the "grind" card we're looking for. Would make having a Jitte even more techy and tempting.

(disclaimer: I'm thinking out-loud and sharing my thoughts as they come to me)

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I took Bitterblossomg into consideration already. It is a bit slow but nice versus Lilliana. The idea is to have a token generator that can protect our Mongeese from Lilli's edict effects. For that matter. Ashiok fills that creature generating role a bit and is more powerful.

Jitte would be nice if Mongoose had hexproof. But with shroud we render 1/3 of our creatures un-equipable :) Ooze is good in grindy games versus the graveyard dependent tempo mirrors (aka RUG and to some degree Team America). But Ooze does nothing versus Patriot.

Sulfuric Vortrex works nice in the grindy games versus control, not so versus the tempo mirror.

If you are considering playing Thrun, just play TNN as it is far better castable. But it dies to Plagus, Charms, REBS (counter mode) etc. So yeah Thrun is better *if* you have the mana open. The evasion part is not relevant as you want a beatstick that can clear the ground and give you some time to find Bolts, Delvers, Shamans and "ping" the opponent to the face.

I still think that Ashiok is the card we are looking for when it comes to flexibility. Due to our limited SB space we need a card that can break tempo mirrros, control MUs and perhaps midrange creature matchups. Ashiok fills that role with TNN in the second place and the third place belongs to Clique. The latter is not so good versus tempo but great versus combo, control and Aether Vial and Punishing Fire midrange decks.

Fun card that would be great if the color requirements were not so horrible: Sprouting Thrinax.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

The matchup is fair and around 50/50. Perhaps you can tell me what is the most difficult part for you in the matchup so that we can analyze how you can change your playstyle ;-).

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The way i've been play is that i try to stifle their fetches, then wasteland their duals.

If i see a DRS in play, I bolt it instantly.

But you can only do this for so long until they drop threats down like goyf and their baleful strix. I have actually bolted a baleful so I can attack.

When they get their engine online its pretty much game.

On g2, I usually take out my daze or fow depending on the draw or play. I would bring in 2 fire covenants, 2 pyroblasts for their blue cards.

I'm not sure if i want to bring in submerge.

Submerge is excellent against Tarmogoyf, Shardless BUG, and Team America. Consider saving your Stifle for Shardless Agent, Ancestral Vision, or Liliana. Consider saving your Bolt for Baleful Strix, other blockers, or Liliana if you have your own Deathrite Shaman, have a large graveyard, or do not need your graveyard as a resource.

I also don't get, why Ashiok should be that good. Especially in Tempo mirrors with 12 creatures and like 50 cards in the deck, the chances to exile a creature should be below 50% for the first try (1-0,8×0,8×0,8=0,488).
In the best case you get a creature after the turn you dropped.Ashiok and he survived, why not play a nemesis instead?
Is the potential ca really worth the risk?
If we want an edge in grindy matchups why not play sylvan library ?
Maybe I missed something but has this card been discussed before?
Unfortunally I can't playtest a lot so I am somehow dependant on other people's impressions.
Btw I got third at a local tournament last week. Only loss to belcher, in the importent third geme I kept a risky hand with ponder and daze, hoping to draw something wich was a mistake i guess. I am still missing flusterstorms in the sideboard but I think I mainly still need to learn a lot.

This is it. I'm taking this baby to a bigger tourney tomorrow. Our "bigger" tourneys make up 50-60 people at most. 70-80 if we're lucky. I have 2 byes, so in 6 rds I just need to win my first 2 (go 4-0) then ID the next 2 to get top 8.

Just minor tweaks to the SB. Was unable to get Ashiok, but I'm pretty confident about the tempo mirror anyway.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Good luck :-) Hope you do well.

go bUrg, go!

good luck

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Originally Posted by sherko7

This is it. I'm taking this baby to a bigger tourney tomorrow.

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Best of luck, man! I'm looking forward to hearing if the Forked Bolt ends up making any difference, because I think the card is pretty good right now.

Time to go! I hope the Pithing Needle is worth it. I'm not really concerned with the Forked Bolt. Its great! The additional removal + reach + possible 2 for 1 is really worth it. I just hope I don't run into the Tempo haters. Our current meta is full of RUG and Patriot, so I wouldn't be surprised if the meta is prepared for them like the last tourney. Anyway, here's the poster. Gotta go. :smile:

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...16147406_n.jpg

Well I got 9th. 50-60 players played. Lost to Omnitell (G3 I had Pyroblast and double FoW but lacked a blue card, he had a Pact anyway for the 2nd FoW) and then lost my win and in against Junk (mull to 5 games 1-2, mana screw game 3). The deck is well positioned against most of the decks to beat, unfortunately loses to most decks trying to beat the tempo meta here (Junk, Maverick, DnT). Also managed to draw 3 DRS twice, one of them against combo. Not really a good day for me. Not planning to post a report, starting to feel like I need to cut a color, but we'll see. The deck's pretty solid, albeit it lacks the consistency of RUG or BUG. The deck would sometimes feel clunky, the double/triple DRS draws are one of 'em. Sometimes Decay can be a pain to cast as well, and then a couple of times I'd feel like 2 Decays are not enough. One thing I'd definitely want in the future is to grab True Name Nemesis. That solves a lot of the deck's issues, but we'll see! Pretty hard to track those down locally. :tongue:

Don't get me wrong, the deck still packs a punch! Need more work on the board probably. Forked Bolt was a blast! Definitely worth cutting 1 Snare. The Pithing Needle in the board didn't really come up so I don't really know if it's worth it.