Esper Mentor

I haven't played much legacy in the past year, but I've been getting the itch and I have pretty much all the cards for this deck. However, I like to try spicy tech quite a lot, so I have a question for the esper mentor pilots in this thread. Would a substitution of the SFM package, plus maybe a Jace or two, for a thopter/sword package be viable? Something like 4 foundry/3sword/1 enlightened tutor.

Advantages could be:
-more blue cards for FoW
-better defense against delver/big beaters
-harder to disrupt once assembled/strain abrupt decay
-could cause opponent to overboard for gy/artifact hate

Negatives could be:
-harder to get immediate CA/value because of the 2-card combo element
-lose some control elements with no jitte

You guys have been playing this shell, so you'd have some input on if this would be viable at all.

The core of the deck is Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, Therapy, Force of Will, and Monastery Mentor. Beyond that, you can do whatever you want. DNSolver was playing a list with Entomb, Reanimate, and Grislebrand. SFM is in no way a core card for this deck.

If you want to try a Thopter package, I say go for it. I'd be interested to hear about your results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Sorry to hear that you didn't do well, but I'd still be interested to see what you played against or how some of the matchups may have played out.

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I went 3-4 beating ANT, ANT, punishing Maverick. Losing to Burn, Grixis delver, Eldrazi aggro and scooping to a superior position to Pox depths while in extra turns. The Delver and aggro loses felt like bad luck, my opponents played badly and I still could not do much against them. Usually those 2 matchups feel pretty even or even favored for me.

The meta was weird, it was like 90ish people but I did not see any 4c pile and minimal delver. There was 4 FoW in the entire top 8.

Flusterstorms in the MD were obviously great agianst ANT, and delver, but probably are not necessary. I feel like I would be better off with the 4th therapy and maybe another removal spell. Also, I changed around my SB last minute and took out 2 Edicts for a 2nd EE and needle which threw off my general SB plan in a bunch of matchups.

Deathrites were good, but I am still more comfortable without them so the deck was a much worse control deck, and better aggro deck, that what I am used to. Deathrite is too good not to play though.

Bad beats happen, I wouldn't let it discourage you from continuing to develop your version of the deck.

I went 1-3 in the second side event at EW on Friday, beating Infect and then losing to BUG Death's Shadow, Czech Pile, and Sneak Show all 0-2. So yea.

My experience with Deathrite was that it immediately ate removal almost everytime I played it, which then cleared the way for SFM or Mentor. Being able to trade one mana and a card for the opponent's one mana and a card felt pretty nice. Therapy hitting a single removal spell is tempo negative compared to DRS going tempo neutral. Not to say that clearing the way with Therapy isn't good, but baiting removal with DRS was great.

When DRS didn't die and I actually was able to get ahead on mana, I was able to deploy faster, which also felt good.

Mostly though, I just like what DRS does for the curve, by giving the deck better early game plays, especially on turn 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Bad beats happen, I wouldn't let it discourage you from continuing to develop your version of the deck.

I went 1-3 in the second side event at EW on Friday, beating Infect and then losing to BUG Death's Shadow, Czech Pile, and Sneak Show all 0-2. So yea.

My experience with Deathrite was that it immediately ate removal almost everytime I played it, which then cleared the way for SFM or Mentor. Being able to trade one mana and a card for the opponent's one mana and a card felt pretty nice. Therapy hitting a single removal spell is tempo negative compared to DRS going tempo neutral. Not to say that clearing the way with Therapy isn't good, but baiting removal with DRS was great.

When DRS didn't die and I actually was able to get ahead on mana, I was able to deploy faster, which also felt good.

Mostly though, I just like what DRS does for the curve, by giving the deck better early game plays, especially on turn 1.

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found a BtB to borrow, playing tonight to make some practice, yay!
some suggestion for the board in / out?

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

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I mean, you could do that, sure. Without black, it wouldn't really belong in the Esper Mentor thread, though.

Personally, I'd much rather have Cabal Therapy.

I don’t think a 5c version (Esper + Grove) is a viable idea, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I mean, you could do that, sure. Without black, it wouldn't really belong in the Esper Mentor thread, though.

Personally, I'd much rather have Cabal Therapy.

I don’t think a 5c version (Esper + Grove) is a viable idea, but who knows.

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Hmm, 5c Mentor.. what would that look like... maybe?

12 Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Monastery Mentor

29 Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Punishing Fire
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x (secondary counterspell of choice)
1x Search for Azcanta

19 Lands
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
2x Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
3x Zealous Persecution
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
3x Meddling Mage
3x Thoughtseize

That seems to keep most of the useful ideas and have ok mana? I dunno, just throwing it out there.

EDIT: now that I think about it a singleton Rally the Peasants should probably be in there somewhere as well. And obviously the sideboard is a mess.

Hanni, how would you characterize your list's matchup vs Czech Pile? I've struggled against that deck a lot with classic Esper Deathblade, but I assume Mentor does work.

Also, does 12 cantrips/18 land ever feel punishing against Thalia, Chalice, Leovold, and the like?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

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It's totally possible to revive Punishing Mentor, but it would be totally different from Esper Mentor. Obviously, if you run Grove, Back to Basics (B2B) is a no-go then.

Esper Mentor definitely has room for 2 B2B. This greedy mana base meta is perfect for the card, not horrible against lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

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I have been splashing red for Kolaghans Command MD and REB in the board a couple of times. UWBr is doable.

After seeing the Hanni Stoneforge list in action, I can see the deck benefits from a must kill two-drop. YP seems like an interesting alternative to stoneforge, but it does put a lot more strain on the mana to produce red early. Kolaghans Command is a late game card, so splashing red for that hasn't been difficult. YP has more synergy with what the deck is trying to do though.

I agree that dropping black (probe + cabal) would take a lot of synergy out of the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Hmm, 5c Mentor.. what would that look like... maybe?

12 Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Monastery Mentor

29 Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Punishing Fire
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x (secondary counterspell of choice)
1x Search for Azcanta

19 Lands
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
2x Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
3x Zealous Persecution
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
3x Meddling Mage
3x Thoughtseize

That seems to keep most of the useful ideas and have ok mana? I dunno, just throwing it out there.

EDIT: now that I think about it a singleton Rally the Peasants should probably be in there somewhere as well. And obviously the sideboard is a mess.

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This jus seems way too greedy to me. Honestly, I think you'd have a better deck if you cut out white. You don't need Mentor or Swords to Plowshares in this shell. Grixis Pyromancer with Punishing Fire is a completely legit idea that could definitely be a powerhouse right now. If I were to develop a Punishing version, that is the direction I would take.

I would also be very tempted to try out a package with Entomb, Anger, Life from the Loam, and a 1-of Worm Harvest as a tutorable finisher. Only problem there is that the deck starts to warp in a different direction, so maybe that idea isn't actually any good. I don't know. Either way, I would not include white.

5c is just way too greedy.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

Hanni, how would you characterize your list's matchup vs Czech Pile? I've struggled against that deck a lot with classic Esper Deathblade, but I assume Mentor does work.

Also, does 12 cantrips/18 land ever feel punishing against Thalia, Chalice, Leovold, and the like?

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Czech Pile feels like a 50/50 for my list. Both decks are vying for control of resources, so it is very much a back and forth battle of attrition. Sometimes this deck can go on the beatdown with Mentor, but usually, the matchup comes down to understanding how to efficiently trade resources.

For example, using a Swords to Plowshares on a Baleful Strix is horrible; you are now down a card. Likewise, the opponent using a Fatal Push on a Stoneforge Mystic puts them down a card, which is great for us. Save Spell Pierce for their 2-for1's like Hymn to Tourach, Jace, or Kologhan's Command, unless Spell Pierce is protecting a Monastery Mentor.

Force of Will should only be used exclusively for back-breaking spells played at critical times. Kologhan's Command hitting an equipment spell, JTMS when you don't have a Mentor + tokens already on board, or a Leovold that you don't have another answer for, etc.

Probe/Therapy + Mentor and Jace TMS are your best cards in this matchup. Shred their hand, and then either drop a Mentor and go wide, or drop a Jace and pull ahead on resources. SFM + equips are also good at outgrinding them if they either don't find a Kologhan's Command, or if you are able to nullify it.

12 cantrips and 18 lands does add vulnerability to Chalice. The deck has 26 1cc spells. Most of the time, a resolved Chalice for one on turn one is a loss. Still, the deck is less cold to it than Delver decks are in game one, and there are sufficient answers for it postboard.

Thalia is not too big of a deal. The extra tax isn't insignificant, but the deck is still capable of operating just fine more often than not. The 4 basics and DRS do alot of work against mana denial.

Leovold is public enemy numer one. Do whatever you can to keep him off the board. He shuts down most of what this deck is trying to do. Postboard, the deck has Council's Judgment, Toxic Deluge, and Engineered Explosives to cleanly deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Czech Pile feels like a 50/50 for my list. Both decks are vying for control of resources, so it is very much a back and forth battle of attrition. Sometimes this deck can go on the beatdown with Mentor, but usually, the matchup comes down to understanding how to efficiently trade resources.

For example, using a Swords to Plowshares on a Baleful Strix is horrible; you are now down a card. Likewise, the opponent using a Fatal Push on a Stoneforge Mystic puts them down a card, which is great for us. Save Spell Pierce for their 2-for1's like Hymn to Tourach, Jace, or Kologhan's Command, unless Spell Pierce is protecting a Monastery Mentor.

Force of Will should only be used exclusively for back-breaking spells played at critical times. Kologhan's Command hitting an equipment spell, JTMS when you don't have a Mentor + tokens already on board, or a Leovold that you don't have another answer for, etc.

Probe/Therapy + Mentor and Jace TMS are your best cards in this matchup. Shred their hand, and then either drop a Mentor and go wide, or drop a Jace and pull ahead on resources. SFM + equips are also good at outgrinding them if they either don't find a Kologhan's Command, or if you are able to nullify it.

12 cantrips and 18 lands does add vulnerability to Chalice. The deck has 26 1cc spells. Most of the time, a resolved Chalice for one on turn one is a loss. Still, the deck is less cold to it than Delver decks are in game one, and there are sufficient answers for it postboard.

Thalia is not too big of a deal. The extra tax isn't insignificant, but the deck is still capable of operating just fine more often than not. The 4 basics and DRS do alot of work against mana denial.

Leovold is public enemy numer one. Do whatever you can to keep him off the board. He shuts down most of what this deck is trying to do. Postboard, the deck has Council's Judgment, Toxic Deluge, and Engineered Explosives to cleanly deal with it.

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Firstly, amazing list! Enjoyed playing it over my usual Delver decks. This list amazingly was able to out race UR delver and outgrind miracles this week for me.

Would you comment on what you like in and out from the sideboard for Czech Pile. They attack at so many angles. Thanks!

My current sideboard plan vs Czech Pile is:

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-2 Force of Will
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Back to Basics
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

However, not all Czech Pile lists are the same. If I see TNN, I'd probably cut another DRS for the Zealous Persecution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

My current sideboard plan vs Czech Pile is:

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-2 Force of Will
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Back to Basics
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

However, not all Czech Pile lists are the same. If I see TNN, I'd probably cut another DRS for the Zealous Persecution.

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Hmm, if you board out all of the swords, how do you deal with a resolved Gurmag or Leovold?

Toxic Deluge, Council’s Judgment, and Engineered Explosives all deal with Leovold cleanly, i.e without card disadvantage.

Most lists aren't running Gurmag. Regardless, Council’s Judgment and Jace can both deal with it, while Mentor + tokens don't really care about it. Depending on gamestate, especially since they don't pressure the life total much, Toxic Deluge is also a possibility. Equipping Batterskull to a SFM or DRS outsizes it; a SFM + Batterskull can contain it on defense.

If I see Gurmag in game one, maybe I leave one Swords in and cut the 2nd DRS.

So I lost against D&T at my LGS last night due to some fairly bad draws... mana flooded both games, little to no creature removal drawn, etc.

At any rate, my loss to D&T got me thinking. While I've beaten D&T with Esper Mentor on more than one occasion, it's a fairly close matchup. On the other hand, I've played quite a bit with Bant Deathblade, and I crush that matchup everytime. TNN + Jitte is insane against them.

So like I said, it got me thinking. I wrote a blurb in the Deathblade thread before about some of the various pros and cons for both Mentor and TNN, and while I'm firmly in the Mentor camp because Mentor is absurd... why can't I run both?

I'm going to test the following list at my LGS next week:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The debate for me was whether or not to cut a Pierce or a Jace from the maindeck, but decided that Pierce was only mediocre and Jace was incredible, so I trimmed a Pierce.

Cutting down to 2 Meddling Mage to fit the Pierce in the board seems fine for me. I've been on the fence about the 3rd Mage for a while, and there are matchups where I want the 2nd Pierce, so I think I'm okay with making that adjustment.

Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

So I lost against D&T at my LGS last night due to some fairly bad draws... mana flooded both games, little to no creature removal drawn, etc.

At any rate, my loss to D&T got me thinking. While I've beaten D&T with Esper Mentor on more than one occasion, it's a fairly close matchup. On the other hand, I've played quite a bit with Bant Deathblade, and I crush that matchup everytime. TNN + Jitte is insane against them.

So like I said, it got me thinking. I wrote a blurb in the Deathblade thread before about some of the various pros and cons for both Mentor and TNN, and while I'm firmly in the Mentor camp because Mentor is absurd... why can't I run both?

I'm going to test the following list at my LGS next week:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The debate for me was whether or not to cut a Pierce or a Jace from the maindeck, but decided that Pierce was only mediocre and Jace was incredible, so I trimmed a Pierce.

Cutting down to 2 Meddling Mage to fit the Pierce in the board seems fine for me. I've been on the fence about the 3rd Mage for a while, and there are matchups where I want the 2nd Pierce, so I think I'm okay with making that adjustment.

Thoughts?

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unsure, let me talk about today first:

sadly few people showed up today, only 12 (or 13 and one dropped off?) we assumed that is due to Lucca comix (the biggest comix event in italy and EUROPE, like your gen con, to give you an idea)
btw
G1 vs Storm
I've basically lost g1 after a nausea which bring him down to three. I comment how cool would have been for me to have bolt, at which he fetches... going down to 2 life... at which my deathrite responds killing him. He got carried away from mystic + skull and mentor in my hand that he forgot about deathrite.
G2 I get discard, meddling mage and back to basic:
Yeah I know you probably wouldn't side that in, but I had a feeling I could snag that:
Honestly I just fetched duals because I'm not used to play with BtB so it locked me too, but I got his two U sea at once, cabal out his led the same turn and his double ritual the following turn locking the game

Vs FOod chain
It's a buddy of mine and I don't recall much because the game were intense:
G1 was well fought I remember I do the dream start of probe + therapy hitting two food chains.
From there I think I baited or discarded a decay (if baited with mystic) then slammed mentor and maybe jace and you know the game is over when that happens.
G2 I don't recall everything, I know I hit two griffins with cabal, but then I've made a bad call with meddling mage (called decay) because I had two answer to Food chain (disenchant and council) I didn't see enough pressure, so I forfeited to go at g3.
g3 we have just few minutes:
I got deathrite and mentor, he had double deathrite in play, but a crazy hand, full of answer: deluge, edict, and so on, just, a few mana: he edict me and I get rid of deathrite, but misses a land drop: here I get a nice two for one with Explosives while making a token which I think, he deluged, they call the turns while basically we both are blanked, so I remember to push the button by casting a second mentor and risking a brainstorm which leave me without a pitch for the force I've in had:
In the end it will pay off since I'll draw a pierce the turn before the propose food chain, making two token in his end step (Which I was about to forget, really jeeez), I untap and draw StP for his strix, trigger the 4 monks, cast a jitte for another trigger and swing for exact letals...
Jesus...

g3 g4 ID
no point in risking, we draw
I play vs burn
Long story short:
I fetch for basic twice, I lost twice for not having mana with on board 1 island + 1 tropical both games...

g5 miracle:
g1 don't have much memories because in the previous round much went on for me but outside of the tournament, I've watched some local strong player and taking advices, so probably I wasn't focused as much as I should have.
I know I was in a good spot but gideon ally of zendikar kept makings stupid tokens and I should have probably made some calculations about killing him instead of trying to kill gideon.
g2 I get stuck on two lands,
I try to probe and he pierce my probe... for good effect noneteless
I see the third land one turn too late, he already assembled gideon and jace, has everything in hand, so can handle me.
If I didn't miss one land drop or he didn't pierce my probe, would have stomped that hand since I had triple mentor...


so
the deck is fun.
It's a bit threat light, that's right, so TNN in twice actually may solve that problem.
Will make the deck better or worse? unsure.
Mentor in only three copies seems bad, but since we got a mini progenitus, which cope well with stoneforge, maybe it's all good:
stoneforge was never impressive TBH, good, but not so great, so TNN may get her working better.

SFM isn't impressive in every match. Against Storm, it's not great and gets trimmed postboard.

SFM is at it's best against Delver and aggro decks, although it's quite solid against control as well.

Against Food Chain, SFM can be lackluster preboard. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great since it lets you swing past Baleful Strix and Misthollow Griffin while applying a major clock and draws a card.

Against Miracles, it's a threat that puts them in a position where they have to make bad trades. If they kill it with Swords to Plowshares, they're down a card. If they deal with a Battersull germ token and SFM with Terminus, they're still down a card. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great. Even Jitte is pretty good, since an active Jitte can shut them down from playing Mentor.

Glad to see that you enjoyed the deck, though.