[Deck] Vial Goblins

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03-18-2017, 03:48 AM
ToadFlinger

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Yo, I've been rocking this Winstigator list for a while, and it has performed pretty well at my LGS. I feel that having 4 business gobs really helps, because I would rather use my Matrons to grab Ringleaders. I don't know how to feel about the removal slots, though.

MAIN:
12 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
3 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Tarfire
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

SB
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
03-19-2017, 08:09 AM
kinda

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToadFlinger

Yo, I've been rocking this Winstigator list for a while, and it has performed pretty well at my LGS. I feel that having 4 business gobs really helps, because I would rather use my Matrons to grab Ringleaders. I don't know how to feel about the removal slots, though.

MAIN:
12 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
3 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Tarfire
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

SB
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon

What have your results been like?
03-19-2017, 03:06 PM
ToadFlinger

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinda

What have your results been like?

I went 4-0 at my LGS against Shardless BUG, True-Name BUG (I think he wasn't running delvers), and two Miracles decks. The next week I let my friend borrow the deck while I tried out copter gobs. He placed, with three wins and a tie, I think. I don't know exactly how the games went, but at least two were against combo.
I really think having 4 finisher goblins improves the consistency of the deck, as it makes top decks so much better. The only times I haven't grabbed a Ringleader with Matron is when I could matron for something that would win the game or get me a Ringleader, like Kiki-Jiki or a Tarfire to clear the way. Also, running more big gobs gives you more openers with something to actually lackey in.
03-21-2017, 03:38 PM
menph

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Hi there mogg fanatics,

is the first time i'm writing here, but i'm reading this topic from a while.
Congrats to every body, the primer and this whole thread are awesome for any goblin player out there!

I came back in mtg from a year now, after quitting for more then ten year i guess! I started playing magic when Onslaught block was released, and gobbos was my first ever and my all time favourite deck. I was really surprised when i discovered then the deck still exist these days, so i decided to take off the shelf my old deck and start playing it again.

Currently i'm playing in a very little meta, mostly at home with few friends and occasionally at LGS small events, so i'm facing mostly delver decks (Canadian, 4c, BUG), D&T, Shardless, Jund, Esper Stoneblade, Rianimator. Rarely i also play against Eldrazi, Dark Maverick and Storm.

I'm playing the classic list with 4 Warchiefs and no Chieftains (but i'm considering adding 1-2 'cause haste is what we need to win many times) nor Piledrivers.
I'm running the whole spectrum of utility goblins like MWM, Prospector (this guy is awesome), Scourger, TukTuk scrapper and Shooter.

As finisher i choose to diversify in order to play around revoker, needle and all sort of specific hate so i'm playing a split between Krenko, Kiki and SiegeGang. One is hasty, one have ETB effect and one just win the game itself if can stick on to the battlefield for few turns..
Furthermore i also tried the kiki-crafter combo, ez winning few game this way, but i'm not sure i want to continue playing it since sometimes you just die trying to put all the 3 pieces together, loosing focus on the effective strategy of the deck.

I noticed the deck perform a lot better increasing the removal section, so now i'm on 3 Tarfire, 2 Pyroblast and 2 Gempalm.

The splash i tried most was black for MD Earwig Squad and SB Cabal Therapy, but currently i'm playing a mono red list since we need a lot of red mana to run things properly and in my wasteland-heavy environment was easy to die with my hand full of uncastable threats.
Anyway i'm considering to try green for TSH, since many times i need to shatter some equipments quickly but i haven't enough time to find and play Tuktuk Scrapper.
I would like to try the Instigator list too with moxes and Chieftains in the future.

Regarding lands, i always played 22-23 with 4 Wasteland and 3-4 Ports plus Karakas and/or Pendelhaven.
In the last days i'm trying whitout Ports since i don't own them and i just want to figure out how the deck would perform in case i'll go to a non-proixes event soon.

all that said that's my list:

16 Core

4 Warchief
3 MWM
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stinggscourger
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 Siege gang commander
1 Krenko
1 Kiki jiki

3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm incinerator
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
6 Fetch
7 Montain
4 Cavern
1 Karakas
1 Pendelhaven

side

3 Chalice
2 Blood Moon
2 Needle

1 Relic of progenitus
1 Surgical extraction
1 Fearie macabre
1 Tormod's crypt

1 Pyrokinesis
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 Sudden demise

With such a configuration the deck perform better in mid-late game and tend to be a bit more "control" oriented. I think the faster is my opp start the harder will be the game. Removal help me to slow down their game plan but not every time.
I'd like to add Chieftain and Piledriver, but isn't easy to find a room for them. Piledriver can be very useful also against TNN since i can beat it only with an overwelming number of goblin or direct damage (Shooter or Siege-Gang).
An other big issue for me are Jitte and Sword of Fire/Ice in D&T match up. In these case more pyrokinesis i can find more chance i have to win. Maybe switchin Tuktuk with TSH as above could help too.

I think the deck it's sweet but probabily our opponents deck are often stronger.. anyway i like it's flexibility and it's synergy and i love how much challenging it is to play it well, so i'll continue to ride it for sure.

if you have any suggestion, any note or suggestion about my list please let me know, it could help
cheers
03-22-2017, 09:26 AM
Fourbirr

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Hi Menph,

That was funny to read your introduction, because I share the same story as yours. I began with Onslaught, played some standard little tournaments, gave up ten year long and came back 3 years ago thanks to a friend who was a very active Legacy player. Legacy is a great format and at least we can play most of our cards from back in the days. Like you said, goblins is a funny deck to play, but requires strong skills and the learning process seems a never ending journey, which...makes it even more funny.

Firstly, looking at your your list, if I may give some feedback, I think the mana base needs a fix. I'm not a great fan of Karakas in a goblin list. Is it to save Krenko? If yes, the chance of having Karakas when you need it for Krenko is very low. Is it an answer to Griselbrand, Iona, Elesh or Emrakul? I guess we don't want to mulligan to find a Karakas. Early game, against this kind of big fatty cheaty decks, we rather want an Aether Vial @2 for Stingscourger, a Thalia and/or a Rishadan Port to tempo them down. A T1 Lackey into Matron for Stingscourger can put us in a very comfortable position. On the play, we really don't want to look at this Karakas in our opening hand with lackey, a Vial, a Rishadan port and no Mountain. Furthermore, splashing white isn't very productive if you don't have any white cards to play in your sideboard, which is a lack in my humble opinion. Then, if you can grab some Rishadan Ports, it will increase your combo match-ups by far. Mana denial is an important part of our game plan and I don't think we can be compete in a meta full of shaky mana bases like Shardless, 4C Control, BUG and Eldrazis. Same story for Pendelhaven.

With your list, I would run these lands:

4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire (it lures your opponent to think you are on BR Reanimator)
3 Arid Mesa/Scalding Tarn (it lures your opponent to think you are on Miracles). It may be relevant against Storm and buys you some time until they find a Gitaxian Probe.
4 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
4 Cavern

Secondly, the 3 tarfires / 2 Pyrokinesis / 2 Gempalm split is not very efficient with this list. Suppose you play against Elves or Infect and bring a Chalice @1. It's 3 dead tarfires and 1 Sudden Demise you won't be able to cast. That's sad! Then you rely almost only on 2 Sharpshooters, 2 Gempalms and 3 Pyrokinesis. 7 removals are very low against them. Do you bring Chalice against BUG? If yes, then it nullifies tarfire. That's 2 Gempalms and 3 Pyrokinesis against their Delvers, Deathrite, Strix. That's only 5 removals here. That's not enough and it will give you a hard time to let your goblins go through. Krenko should give you enough goblins for Gempalms that you might be able able to teach Griselbrand or Tarmogoyf a lesson.

Quote:

Removal help me to slow down their game plan but not every time.

This confirms what I explained above. In your list, I would favor Gempalm over tarfires.

By the way, I'm concerned with Pyrokinesis main deck with the current meta. Having 2 Pyrokinesis takes 2 slots for goblins. Then add 2 goblins less to cast Pyro for its alternative cost, that brings the count to 4 goblins less. With 22-23 lands, that's 10% goblin creatures less which lower our Ringleaders draws, our Lackey drops, and our Gempalm cycling ability. With the big presence of blue decks and Leovold around, we need to compensate with our card advantage. Card advantage optimization is key, and we have to be more grindy than ever. I don't think we can afford to run Pyrokinesis MD at the moment. I forgot to mention that it can be countered, too. In my opinion, running 4 Gempalms main deck is definitely better. It gets rid more often of the opposing dorks than tarfire does, and it gives us a card. "That's big!". But we need to keep a high creatures ratio. I would say that 30 is the minimal threshold. Only Stifle can counter Gempalm ability, but you should be okay, as they targets primarily our fetchlands.

I like the increase of finishers right now. I also run Kiki-Jiki, Siege-Gang, Krenko as well as Chieftain and it feels really good. Some bunch of freshly brewed Krenko tokens with +1/+1 and haste is just too good. A 2/2 Lackey or Matron is still nice and a 3/3 Ringleader becomes really annoying for Leovold now. Good feeling! But I won't cut Piledriver. TNN is back and PDD is almost our only out to race him. I run him as a 2-of in case the first one got fatal pushed.

Quote:

Piledriver can be very useful also against TNN since i can beat it only with an overwelming number of goblin or direct damage (Shooter or Siege-Gang).

Try to cut 1 Mogg War Marshall for 1 Goblin Piledriver.

The dilemma between choosing Tin Street over Tuktuk is real. Personally, I tried both separately and either one was good or bad. It depends of your play style and how you sequence your plays. A Tuktuk on pithing needle with a redirected damage on Jace or Liliana @1 is cool, but it happens rarely. But waiting for a Vial @4 or 4 manas can be lethal against D&T. I think you have to make your own experiences here and try a lot of different Tier 1 MU before to make up your mind.

Blood Moon is awesome, but how often does it enters the battlefield. From my own experience, relying on Blood Moon to win games against Eldrazis or BUG decks stayed just a dream. Top-decking Blood Moon does not rely on the players skills, which are more solid than lucky draws. I think Blood Moon suits better in deck running Sol-lands, like Imperial Painter or Dragon Stompy. But with goblins, you can't really play it on the draw, or you'll have to wait T4 to "try" a Blood Moon and play around Daze, escape Force of Will or Abrupt Decay. At this point, Deathrite is out, Delver is out, and True-name is out. I don't see how Blood Moon can save us here, we are already too far behind and must find other answers like removals or increasing the board. On the play, we should prefer the aggro role and have 2-3 goblins instead of 2-3 Blood Moon. Ok, I concede that it's GG against Lands, but you already have 6 outs against lands with 2 needles and 4 GY hates, and Wastelands and...Rishadan Port. It should be enough to shut down their Thespian Stage's combo. I think Blood Moon is just goblins gambling. I would like to know what are the others goblins players experiences out there.

As graveyard hates, you bring 1 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Surgical extraction, 1 Faerie Macabre and 1 Tormod's crypt. But I suppose you also bring the 3 Chalices, right? Again, it's counter productive, because starting with Chalice at 0 against Storm will counter your own Tormod's Crypt, and Chalice @1 will counter Relic + Surgical + Needle. That's sad for your other outs. In general, I think it's always good to have a strong synergy also within the sideboard to avoid dead cards your board in if Chalice lands. The questions that need to be answered are:

- When do I board Chalice? In which MU? on the play vs. on the draw?
- Which others cards will I board in? on the play vs. on the draw?
- Are they synergistic? If not, then the SB will probably need a second thought.
- Does my SB cards affect MD cards? If yes, can you board them out?

Regarding the white vs. black splash, for what sideboard cards do you need it? Thalia or Cabal Therapy? Or is it for Warren Weirding & Earwig Squads main deck? Which one covers the most MU and how strong are they? If you opt for black, you'll have to add 2-3 Badlands and you'll be more prone to Wastelands or Price of Progress and...Blood Moon. You'll have to change your sideboard accordingly. Maybe try with the classic list and make some updates afterwards.

I hope it could help you a little bit. At least, writing that down helped me to better understand some of the subjects discussed in this thread and to find some blind spots for goblins in the current meta. The other cousins have surely more to share.

Welcome in our cavern!
03-22-2017, 03:57 PM
owerbart

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

I like the Green splash since gives us access to both Krosan Grip and Tin Street Hooligan. I've been wanting to splash both black and green for some discard options as well as maybe warren weirding, but i'm still on the fence about cutting the 4 cavern + 4 waste + 4 ports. I feel like those 12 lands are the core of any goblins deck. Do you feel it might be possible to splash both and keep the mana denial plan?

Also in case somebody isn't on the Facebook group, I have 2 vids from a weekly tournament I won a few weeks ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO5B23GXrlk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ88OVpk-Wo

Maybe we can put a link to the video guide Stevestamopz made in the primer page?
03-22-2017, 07:41 PM
menph

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

thank you for your answer Fourbirr, this looks like another primer ;)
apparently there are a lot of things to discuss! let's see

Basically Karakas is for Griselbrand & co. Of course i'd not mulligan till i find it, but it's one more answer we can find during the game especially when we succeed in locking/slowing them down with chalice and GY hate (or ports of course). It can also help since we can bounce an equipped Thalia.
Of course a stingscourger in hand is the big deal for fatties, but a lot of time it simply get hit by Unmask or Thoughtseize before they put them on the battlefield, while once i find Karakas it will stick on the board the whole game.
When i decided to put Karakas in i looked at the defensive role it can have also, but at this moment i think i never bounced my own legends to save them actually.
For Pendelhaven i'm trying it mainly to help Lackey dealing with the x/2. I think it also help against Punishing decks.
As i said i'm just testing from few days without Ports to figure out how the deck could work, i was previously playing a 3-1 split between ports and one utility land and, even if the few test play i done weren't that bad, probably i'll go back to that configuration or to 4 ports soon.

Crazy question: as the format is very poor of basics, have anybody already tried Ghost Quarter in addiction to Wasteland?

Quote:

3 Bloodstained Mire (it lures your opponent to think you are on BR Reanimator)
3 Arid Mesa/Scalding Tarn (it lures your opponent to think you are on Miracles). It may be relevant against Storm and buys you some time until they find a Gitaxian

Interesting to cheat opponents with fetches, but i already own 3 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Foothills so my next purchase will be ports for sure since they are the only cards i'm missing now. (hopefully they will be reprinted in a future EMA, 'cause the price grew up a lot in the last 6 months).

Quote:

In your list, I would favor Gempalm over tarfires.

Gempalms are awesome! The main issue is that they cannot help our Lackey on T2 against the Squires.. Tarfire is a great turn 2 burn spell for clear the path for Lackey. I think the deck tends to suffer in all the matches where Lackey can't connect or vial isn't on the field. So it's often very important to shoot their DRS or whatever to let him connect. Moreover i found it's very useful in killing Planeswalkers or even dealing direct damage in grindy MU.
That said is true that when i board in Chalice it tend to become a dead card or just food for Pyrokinesis... so trying 4xGempalm make sense

Quote:

I don't think we can afford to run Pyrokinesis MD at the moment.

It depends on meta probably. I found that my win rate is definitely better since i play Pyrokinesis MD. It helps a lot vs D&T and all other creatures based strategy. Many time it's a kind of free Wrath! Maybe i could run only 1 in MD and keep two more copies in SB, but i'm not sure about this. I don't want to run less than 3 in my 75.
Of course it can be countered but i tend to be careful on that and always try to play around daze or cast it when i'm pretty sure it won't be hit by Force. Every time i cast it for it's alternate cost i feel like pitching a goblin card is less important than the advantage it can create.
About the goblin count for Ringleader i think sometimes we have to accept to low it down a bit in order to play useful cards like Pyro and probably it suit particularly well in our deck since we can create a decent card advantage with Matrons an Ringleaders.

EDIT: of course could happen that Pyro is getting forced, but it's still a 2 for 2 trade

Since you don't like neither Pyro or Tarfire, what are you running at this moment as removal other than Gempalms?

so looking now at the MD and trying to focus all the things discussed above, the list could looks like this

16 Core
4 Warchief
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
1 Chieftain
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 Siege gang commander
1 Krenko
1 Kiki jiki

4 Gempalm incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
3 Bloostained mire
3 Wooded foothills
5 Montain
4 Cavern
4 Port

it doesn't look bad, but i feel like it's too light on removals. what do you think?

regarding B/G/W splash i prefer to choose consistency and continue playing mono R for now (edit: also budget reasons here ;)

sideboard looks very tricky too :) since i have not a detailed plan for every MU let's see what i can say for now

Quote:

Do you bring Chalice against BUG?

I tend to bring it in more against Delver or Control than Shardless.

Regarding Sudden Demise, it won't be countered by Chalice @1 (unless you cast it with x=0).

Quote:

- When do I board Chalice? In which MU? on the play vs. on the draw?
- Which others cards will I board in? on the play vs. on the draw?
- Are they synergistic? If not, then the SB will probably need a second thought.
- Does my SB cards affect MD cards? If yes, can you board them out?

-I'm boarding Chalice mainly against combo (X=0 or 1) and Delvers (x=1), probably it helps a lot vs elves, maybe miracles and other blu based strategy, but i dont' know well enough every MU. Usually i don't change much my plan if i'm on play/draw (maybe just cut 1 lackey on the draw)

-The other cards i guess i'd put in are: against Reanimator GY hate+ needle on Griselbrand; Storm GY hate+shooter; Delver stingscourger for goyf or angler, Elves Sudden Demise, Shooter and Pyro, miracles i don't know, maybe Sudden demise for mentor or angels.

-As you suggest chalice, needle and GY hate can be anti synergistic.
Personally i dont like Leyline of the Void, since i don't want to loose just searching it in my opening hand. GY hate and chalice could be more synergistic increasing Fearies count. Maybe a split 2/1/1 between fearies macabre, 1 drops and 0 drops could work, bringing in 3 at time: fearies + 1 drop if i think to play chalice@0 and fearies + 0 drop if i think to play chalice @1.

Needle can't be fixed i guess in case i want to play it against Bug for DRS or Jace in addiction to Chalice@1, vs Elves naming Wirewood, or vs Miracles for Top.
EDIT: Phyrexian revoker could be better since it cost 2 and can be vialed in also

-If i cut from the 75 Tarfire i think there will be no big problem between chalice and other cards (if we have cavern), otherwise Tarfire could be just boarded out in favor of other removals like Pyro, Shooter, SiegeGang or Gempalm n°3-4.

Moons are great ops card, but it's true that they tend to be bit too slow for us unless we can clear the board properly.
If i think to cut the Moons sideboard could be like:

3 Chalice
2 Needle (EDIT: or Revoker)
2 Fearie Macabre
1 Surgical or Relic
1 Tormod crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Sudden Demise
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
1 Shooter

A lot of think to keep in mind so i probably forget something and over considered something else.
03-22-2017, 11:31 PM
1GoblinLackey

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by menph

thank you for your answer Fourbirr, this looks like another primer ;)
apparently there are a lot of things to discuss! let's see

Basically Karakas is for Griselbrand & co. Of course i'd not mulligan till i find it, but it's one more answer we can find during the game especially when we succeed in locking/slowing them down with chalice and GY hate (or ports of course). It can also help since we can bounce an equipped Thalia.
Of course a stingscourger in hand is the big deal for fatties, but a lot of time it simply get hit by Unmask or Thoughtseize before they put them on the battlefield, while once i find Karakas it will stick on the board the whole game.
When i decided to put Karakas in i looked at the defensive role it can have also, but at this moment i think i never bounced my own legends to save them actually.
For Pendelhaven i'm trying it mainly to help Lackey dealing with the x/2. I think it also help against Punishing decks.
As i said i'm just testing from few days without Ports to figure out how the deck could work, i was previously playing a 3-1 split between ports and one utility land and, even if the few test play i done weren't that bad, probably i'll go back to that configuration or to 4 ports soon.

Crazy question: as the format is very poor of basics, have anybody already tried Ghost Quarter in addiction to Wasteland?

Interesting to cheat opponents with fetches, but i already own 3 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Foothills so my next purchase will be ports for sure since they are the only cards i'm missing now. (hopefully they will be reprinted in a future EMA, 'cause the price grew up a lot in the last 6 months).

Gempalms are awesome! The main issue is that they cannot help our Lackey on T2 against the Squires.. Tarfire is a great turn 2 burn spell for clear the path for Lackey. I think the deck tends to suffer in all the matches where Lackey can't connect or vial isn't on the field. So it's often very important to shoot their DRS or whatever to let him connect. Moreover i found it's very useful in killing Planeswalkers or even dealing direct damage in grindy MU.
That said is true that when i board in Chalice it tend to become a dead card or just food for Pyrokinesis... so trying 4xGempalm make sense

It depends on meta probably. I found that my win rate is definitely better since i play Pyrokinesis MD. It helps a lot vs D&T and all other creatures based strategy. Many time it's a kind of free Wrath! Maybe i could run only 1 in MD and keep two more copies in SB, but i'm not sure about this. I don't want to run less than 3 in my 75.
Of course it can be countered but i tend to be careful on that and always try to play around daze or cast it when i'm pretty sure it won't be hit by Force. Every time i cast it for it's alternate cost i feel like pitching a goblin card is less important than the advantage it can create. About the goblin count for Ringleader i think sometimes we have to accept to low it down a bit in order to play useful cards like Pyro and probably it suit particularly well in our deck since we can create a decent card advantage with Matrons an Ringleader.

Since you don't like neither Pyro or Tarfire, what are you running at this moment as removal other than Gempalms?

so looking now at the MD and trying to focus all the things discussed above, the list could looks like this

16 Core
4 Warchief
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
1 Chieftain
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 Siege gang commander
1 Krenko
1 Kiki jiki

4 Gempalm incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
3 Bloostained mire
3 Wooded foothills
5 Montain
4 Cavern
4 Port

it doesn't look bad, but i feel like it's too light on removals. what do you think?

regarding B/G/W splash i prefer to choose consistency and continue playing mono R for now.

sideboard looks very tricky too :) since i have not a detailed plan for every MU let's see what i can say for now

I tend to bring it in more against Delver or Control than Shardless.

Regarding Sudden Demise, it won't be countered by Chalice @1 (unless you cast it with x=0).

-I'm boarding Chalice mainly against combo (X=0 or 1) and Delvers (x=1), probably it helps a lot vs elves, maybe miracles and other blu based strategy, but i dont' know well enough every MU. Usually i don't change much my plan if i'm on play/draw (maybe just cut 1 lackey on the draw)
-The other cards i guess i'd put in are: against Reanimator GY hate+ needle on Griselbrand; Storm GY hate+shooter; Delver stingscourger for goyf or angler, Elves Sudden Demise, Shooter and Pyro, miracles Sudden demise for mentor or angels.
-As you suggest chalice, needle and GY hate can be anti synergistic.
Personally i dont like Leyline of the Void, since i don't want to loose just searching it in my opening hand. GY hate and chalice could be more synergistic increasing Fearies count. Maybe a split 2/1/1 between fearies macabre, 1 drops and 0 drops could work, bringing in 3 at time: fearies + 1 drop if i think to play chalice@0 and fearies + 0 drop if i think to play chalice @1.
Needle can't be fixed i guess in case i want to play it against Bug for DRS or Jace in addiction to Chalice@1, or vs Elves naming Wirewood, or vs Miracles for Top
-If i cut from the 75 Tarfire i think there will be no big problem between chalice and other cards (if we have cavern), otherwise Tarfire could be just boarded out in favor of other removals like Pyro, Shooter, SiegeGang or Gempalm n°3-4.

Moons are great ops card, but it's true that they tend to be bit too slow for us unless we can clear the board properly.
If i think to cut the Moons sideboard could be like:

3 Chalice
2 Needle
2 Fearie Macabre
1 Surgical or Relic
1 Tormod crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Sudden Demise
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
1 Shooter

A lot of think to keep in mind so i probably forget something and over considered something else.

Hey menph!

Your decklist is quite similar to mine actually; The only difference really is that I play 3 War Marshal 1 Piledriver, and 3 warchiefs instead of 4. I also play 3-2 split between gempalm and tarfire (with the 1 MD Pyro, just like you). Despite also running Chalices, I think Tarfire is okay. Obviously killing DRS and Stoneforge is great, but I also find the ability to kill a turn 1 Mother of Runes on the draw against D&T is pretty important. I'm also with you on the Karakas, I think it's quite strong right now.

If you're not splashing at all, I'd go without the fetches. It can starve deathrite a bit sometimes, and any thinning effect you get will be less impactful than the damage you take. Also makes you more vulnerable to stifle, which you'd really like to avoid as much as possible. I personally splash black for Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy off of 2 badlands + 5 fetches. Squad is pretty great is most matchups; it's only bad against the redundant lightning bolt decks like Grixis Delver.

Moon is best when you're playing against a lot of BUG decks, or 4C Loam/Lands. I do a 1-1 split of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon for a couple reasons. Magus is better against BUG decks because you can vial it in, leaving them unable to float mana and abrupt decay (or daze it). The issue is that it dies to punishing fire, so it's much much worse against Lands. You still bring them in both matchups, but they have specific upsides and downsides for each. I really like Moon effects in the current overall meta because it can get you so many free wins, but it's a meta call; definitely non-essential.

Sideboard plans for Reanimator should probably involve Grafdigger's Cage. Yes it can get stopped with Chancellor, but the only card that doesn't is tormod's crypt, which I think is a bit too narrow, and doesn't stop them more than once. Cage stops them just about permanently. Cage is also the most versatile grave hate in my opinion, as it is great against Elves and Dredge, medium-strong against Storm and Nic Fit, and probably some other decks I'm not thinking of. I like a split of Surgical and Cage, though I also have a single relic for other matchups that I bring in as well. Relic is often too slow though.

Unfortunately, we have to just accept that people are gonna have blockers or a removal spell for lackey at least 70% of the time. Don't try to warp the deck to beat that too much, otherwise you're better off playing a Winstigator version that's built to do that.

Also, welcome to the thread! I only finished my deck a month ago, so I know the stage your in (picking up ports feels bad for sure right now). I tried playing ghost quarter for awhile; it's great in some matchups like delver decks and BG depths (more wastelands for dark depths and thespian's stage is always useful). However, once you run into a deck with basics, it feels like it's really hurting you. More red sources is definitely better.
03-23-2017, 12:21 AM
KO Bossy

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Well, I've been messing around, testing out a deck I brewed up for the time being, just working out the kinks and learning the ins and outs, so far I came up with this, would love feedback.

Lands-23

Rishadan Port x2
Cavern of Souls x4
Wasteland x4
Plateau x2
Arid Mesa x4
Bloodstained Mire x3
Mountains x4

Creatures-31

Goblin Lackey x4
Goblin Matron x4
Goblin Ringleader x4
Goblin Warchief x3
Goblin Piledriver x2
Mogg War Marshal x2
Gempalm Incinerator x3
Goblin Sharpshooter x1
Goblin Chieftain x3
Siege-Gang Commander x1
Krenko, Mob Boss x2
Tuktuk Scrapper x1
Stingscourger x1

Spells-2

Tarfire x2

Artifacts-4

Aether Vial x4

Sideboard-15

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben x2
Blood Moon x2
Relic of Progenitus x2
Pithing Needle x2
Stingscourger x1
Tuktuk Scrapper x1
Ethersworn Canonist x2
Pyrokinesis x2
Surgical Extraction x1

So my general reasoning for choices is this:

Chalice-seems neat and potentially really helpful, but feels to me like it kinda goes against the whole "flood the board" strategy. I agree with Fourbirr, when you toss down a Chalice on 0 or 1, you end up kinda shooting yourself in the foot in some cases. I feel like we may have better ways more in tune with our strategy, especially against combo decks which seem to be our enemy.

For that reason, I put in a pair of Ethersworn in the SB. With Talia, she taxes opponents for playing non-creature spells, so those Brainstorms, Ponders, Swords to Plowshares and whatnot become more expensive. Ethersworn stops combo dead in its tracks. It renders Glimpse pointless with Elves, they can't combo off by generating a ton of mana for GSZ or for Natural Order as soon. Against Storm, Ethersworn is really only vulnerable to Cabal Therapy if its in hand, but once it hits the table, they don't have much of a way to deal with it, whereas Chalice is vulnerable to Therapy and Duress. More importantly, Ethersworn is a creature and jives with our whole creature based strategy without interfering with it.

Not 100% on Blood Moon, especially if I'm playing Fetches/Duals, but it can stop some decks dead in their tracks and the majority of the deck can live with all red mana.

Sharpshooter feels better in the SB, but right now SB is full, so...not sure how to rearrange it.

I have 6 haste lords, went with a 3/3 Chieftain/Warchief split. Seems high perhaps, but when I was testing is online, there were a lot of games when I felt that I wanted haste and either cheaper Goblins or a stat boost. The ability to grab either regularly was nice. And lemme tell you, dropping a SGC off Lackey T2 and T3 dropping a Chieftain to make all those 1/1 tokens start smacking for some really relevant damage felt just awesome. Or even better, Chieftain + Krenko for hasty 2/2 tokens. 1/1s over time feel easy enough to clean up, but when you're hitting for 10 a turn with just tokens alone, they panic.

I feel maybe I should cut out some Fetches for more mountains, I'm running 2 Plateau for the white splash, unsure about Karakas yet. Seems very useful for the deck but if I'm running a singleton with no way to grab it besides luck, I feel its something I can't rely as much on. I'm thinking maybe more Ports? Only thing is that more fetches means more thinning out the deck, so it helps cards like Ringleader to score more often.

I'm running the 2nd Krenko because the big guy is kinda vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and Swords, not to mention the big target on his back naturally. Just a back up in case.

I'm open to suggestions about a black splash, it seems good as well (I dig the idea of our own Cabal Therapies). Earwig Squad also seems useful.

Anyway, just want some feedback/suggestions/thoughts.
03-23-2017, 06:07 AM
menph

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by owerbart

Do you feel it might be possible to splash both and keep the mana denial plan?

Also in case somebody isn't on the Facebook group, I have 2 vids from a weekly tournament I won a few weeks ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO5B23GXrlk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ88OVpk-Wo

i saw some decks splashing G/W or G/B, so i figure it could work, but never tried

wow that Rabblemaster is so unexpected in our deck! i like playing Dragon Stompy some times and he is great in it, but in goblin its "must attack" ability doesn't sounds good many times

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

Hey menph!

Your decklist is quite similar to mine actually; The only difference really is that I play 3 War Marshal 1 Piledriver, and 3 warchiefs instead of 4. I also play 3-2 split between gempalm and tarfire (with the 1 MD Pyro, just like you). Despite also running Chalices, I think Tarfire is okay. Obviously killing DRS and Stoneforge is great, but I also find the ability to kill a turn 1 Mother of Runes on the draw against D&T is pretty important. I'm also with you on the Karakas, I think it's quite strong right now.

If you're not splashing at all, I'd go without the fetches. It can starve deathrite a bit sometimes, and any thinning effect you get will be less impactful than the damage you take. Also makes you more vulnerable to stifle, which you'd really like to avoid as much as possible. I personally splash black for Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy off of 2 badlands + 5 fetches. Squad is pretty great is most matchups; it's only bad against the redundant lightning bolt decks like Grixis Delver.

Moon is best when you're playing against a lot of BUG decks, or 4C Loam/Lands. I do a 1-1 split of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon for a couple reasons. Magus is better against BUG decks because you can vial it in, leaving them unable to float mana and abrupt decay (or daze it). The issue is that it dies to punishing fire, so it's much much worse against Lands. You still bring them in both matchups, but they have specific upsides and downsides for each. I really like Moon effects in the current overall meta because it can get you so many free wins, but it's a meta call; definitely non-essential.

Sideboard plans for Reanimator should probably involve Grafdigger's Cage. Yes it can get stopped with Chancellor, but the only card that doesn't is tormod's crypt, which I think is a bit too narrow, and doesn't stop them more than once. Cage stops them just about permanently. Cage is also the most versatile grave hate in my opinion, as it is great against Elves and Dredge, medium-strong against Storm and Nic Fit, and probably some other decks I'm not thinking of. I like a split of Surgical and Cage, though I also have a single relic for other matchups that I bring in as well. Relic is often too slow though.

Unfortunately, we have to just accept that people are gonna have blockers or a removal spell for lackey at least 70% of the time. Don't try to warp the deck to beat that too much, otherwise you're better off playing a Winstigator version that's built to do that.

Also, welcome to the thread! I only finished my deck a month ago, so I know the stage your in (picking up ports feels bad for sure right now). I tried playing ghost quarter for awhile; it's great in some matchups like delver decks and BG depths (more wastelands for dark depths and thespian's stage is always useful). However, once you run into a deck with basics, it feels like it's really hurting you. More red sources is definitely better.

The last list i posted it's just an idea based on the advices i get. I want to collect few opinion here and then try to build my new list.

For now i prefer not to splash for budget reason. Personally i like running fetch lands because tnx to Ringleader we tend to see a lot more card than if we just draw them naturally so fetching few times can give us some free card during long games.

I agree with your point of view on pros an con of Moon/Magus, i think i just have to test few more games in order to understand i i want to keep or cut them.

Cage looks great against reanimator and GSZ deck, but i never tried it.
Against Reanimator i think we have to find the balance between permanent-based hate (Cage, Relic, Crypt, Karaks) and other cards (fearies, Surgical, Stingscourger) 'cause basing our strategy only on the second one make us vulnerable to discard spells while the first one make us vulnerable to shattering effects.
Agree on Relic, used to play 2, shaved to 1 now, thinking if keeping it or not now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KO Bossy

Well, I've been messing around, testing out a deck I brewed up for the time being, just working out the kinks and learning the ins and outs, so far I came up with this, would love feedback.

Rishadan Port x2
Cavern of Souls x4
Wasteland x4
Plateau x2
Arid Mesa x4
Bloodstained Mire x3
Mountains x4

Goblin Lackey x4
Goblin Matron x4
Goblin Ringleader x4
Goblin Warchief x3
Goblin Piledriver x2
Mogg War Marshal x2
Gempalm Incinerator x3
Goblin Sharpshooter x1
Goblin Chieftain x3
Siege-Gang Commander x1
Krenko, Mob Boss x2
Tuktuk Scrapper x1
Stingscourger x1

Tarfire x2
Aether Vial x4

Sideboard-15

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben x2
Blood Moon x2
Relic of Progenitus x2
Pithing Needle x2
Stingscourger x1
Tuktuk Scrapper x1
Ethersworn Canonist x2
Pyrokinesis x2
Surgical Extraction x1

Your list looks definitely good, 6 lords are pure fire! i used to play 4 Warchief+ 2 Chieftains few months ago, now cut them down for utilities and removals, but looking to bring them back.
just feel like it's too light on removal, but with more 2/2s or 3/3s they probably became a little less relevant
03-23-2017, 06:57 AM
Fourbirr

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Hi Menph,

Quote:

thank you for your answer Fourbirr, this looks like another primer ;)

You're welcome. It's my pleasure to spread my experiences and some information found on this forum.

Quote:

Basically Karakas is for Griselbrand & co. Of course i'd not mulligan till i find it, but it's one more answer we can find during the game especially when we succeed in locking/slowing them down with chalice and GY hate (or ports of course). It can also help since we can bounce an equipped Thalia.
Of course a stingscourger in hand is the big deal for fatties, but a lot of time it simply get hit by Unmask or Thoughtseize before they put them on the battlefield, while once i find Karakas it will stick on the board the whole game.
When i decided to put Karakas in i looked at the defensive role it can have also, but at this moment i think i never bounced my own legends to save them actually.
For Pendelhaven i'm trying it mainly to help Lackey dealing with the x/2. I think it also help against Punishing decks.
As i said i'm just testing from few days without Ports to figure out how the deck could work, i was previously playing a 3-1 split between ports and one utility land and, even if the few test play i done weren't that bad, probably i'll go back to that configuration or to 4 ports soon.

Yes sure. If Karakas lands, it makes the defensive role stronger. If it lands...:rolleyes: But it also slows down our goblin casting spells. Same for Pendelhaven. Sad that we can't fetch them.

Quote:

Crazy question: as the format is very poor of basics, have anybody already tried Ghost Quarter in addiction to Wasteland?

Nope, because we need our red mana so bad :cry:

Quote:

Since you don't like neither Pyro or Tarfire, what are you running at this moment as removal other than Gempalms?

It's not exactly what I wrote. I don't like Pyrokinesis main deck, but I still run 3 in the sideboard, because, it can reset our opponent's board, like you mentioned it. Tarfire is very good main deck and I think 2 is a minimum. It gets rid of DRS/Delver/Mom/Hierarch/Strix and let our Lackey pass.

Quote:

-If i cut from the 75 Tarfire i think there will be no big problem between chalice and other cards (if we have cavern), otherwise Tarfire could be just boarded out in favor of other removals like Pyro, Shooter, SiegeGang or Gempalm n°3-4.

I wouldn't cut tarfires, they are too precious.

My removals suit is as followed:

Main deck:
2 tarfires
4 gempalm incinerator
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk/tin street
1 stingscourger

Sideboard:
1 tuktuk/tin street
1 stingscourger
3 pyrokinesis
(2 pyroblast)

After boarding, the removals count goes to 14 (or 16)!! depending of my build.

Quote:

so looking now at the MD and trying to focus all the things discussed above, the list could looks like this

16 Core
4 Warchief
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
1 Chieftain
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 Siege gang commander
1 Krenko
1 Kiki jiki

4 Gempalm incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
3 Bloostained mire
3 Wooded foothills
5 Montain
4 Cavern
4 Port

At the moment, I have almost the exact same list, except I run 22 lands and 2 tarfires MD. Here is what I'm testing this week and what I'll probably bring to the Eternal Week-end in Paris on the 1st April:

4 Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Kiki-Jiki

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire

4 Wasteland
3 Bloostained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills (sadly, I don't have Scalding Tarns, yet)
5 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port

I've never run so many mountains, but it ensures that our RR (Chieftain, Warchief, Siege-Gang) or RRR (Kiki-Jiki) creatures lands. Maybe, I could add a fetch and cut a Piledriver. Need more testing here. But for now, I found this mana base very solid and wasn't disappointed.

Quote:

miracles i don't know, maybe Sudden demise for mentor or angels.

I find Sudden Demise very good against Elves, although we already have Pyrokinesis + Sharpshooter to take care of them. Do we really need one more removal for them? Against Mentor, I think Sudden Demise very risky. Most of the time, they can pump their Mentors in response by casting a Brainstorm, a Snapcaster Mage or Sword to Plowshares, whatever 1-2 CMC spells. Sudden Demise to kill angels? Maybe, but realistically, it shouldn't come that far. If yes, it means our gobos were either sleeping or something went wrong with the play sequences. Did you tried flashing/vialing in a Sulfur Elemental against D&T or Mentor? It's awesome :-)

About your actual sideboard:

Quote:

3 Chalice
2 Needle (EDIT: or Revoker)
2 Fearie Macabre
1 Surgical or Relic
1 Tormod crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Sudden Demise
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
1 Shooter

Versus Elves, Game 1, you have access to 6 removals: 4 Gempalms, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Pyrokinesis. Post side, you'll have 10 removals with 4 Gempalms, 3 Pyrokinesis, 2 Sharpshooters, 1 Sudden Demise. If you run 2 tarfires main deck instead of the single Pyrokinesis, you'll have 7 removals Game 1 and 12 (4 Gempalms, 3 Pyrokinesis, 2 Tarfires, 2 Sharpshooters, 1 Sudden Demise) after side. But it needs some Sideboard changes. I don't know if it makes sense.

In my opinion, I think a Relic of Progenitus is clearly not enough in the current meta. Relic is the most versatile GY hate and it will help you to empty the GY at will against Reanimator, Dredge and Storm, and it helps you to keep Tarmogoyf not too big, or disturbing DRS. Like 1GoblinLackey wrote it, Tormod's Crypt is too narrow and will only do its stuff once. Against Reanimator, it won't save you, and against BUG decks, it doesn't help you that much that it's relevant to board it in. I would replace it with a 2nd Relic of Progenitus.
I never tried Faerie Macabre and can't tell much about it, except that Relic wins me enough games against Storm or Reanimator, that I don't feel the need to have Faeries.

In general, in tournaments, we seek for sideboard versatility and answers to the most MUs. Relic will help you everywhere, in comparison where Faerie Macabre will help you only against Storm and Reanimator. That's what the star players keep saying on their blog during their deck tech reviews before a Grand Prix or other big tournaments. Maybe Faerie Macabre suits very well in your local meta.

For the info, my actual SB is:

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle / Pyroblast (it depends if a lot a blue decks are around -> then pyroblast. If more miracles/lands/reanimator -> pithing needle)
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
1 Tuktuk Scrapper / Tin Street Hooligan (if a lot of blue deck with TNN and Jitte -> Tuktuk. Is more D&T -> Tin Street, because we have to find a quick answer. Tuktuk is often too slow here.)
1 Stingscourger

Have fun while testing. Please keep us informed what your impressions are with Chalice or Blood Moon, because every once in a while, I'm always taunted to run them.

Aye,
Fourbirr
03-23-2017, 08:55 AM
Xod

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle / Pyroblast (it depends if a lot a blue decks are around -> then pyroblast. If more miracles/lands/reanimator -> pithing needle)
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
1 Tuktuk Scrapper / Tin Street Hooligan (if a lot of blue deck with TNN and Jitte -> Tuktuk. Is more D&T -> Tin Street, because we have to find a quick answer. Tuktuk is often too slow here.)
1 Stingscourger

Fourbirr, I see that you are splashing white, does it make sense to use rest in peace instead of Relic of Progenitus? Or is it just that turn too slow? I also see the inclusing of Containment Priest, was also thinking about that but currently my sideboard is:

2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Sudden Demise
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Rest in Peace
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Grafdigger's Cage

New goblin player btw, been reading al lot, will post mainboard later, but in case of removal, I play 2 Tarfires, 2 Pyrokinesis and 3 Gempalm main (and shooter and stingscourger)
03-23-2017, 09:01 AM
menph

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

I don't like Pyrokinesis main deck, but I still run 3 in the sideboard, because, it can reset our opponent's board, like you mentioned it. Tarfire is very good main deck and I think 2 is a minimum. It gets rid of DRS/Delver/Mom/Hierarch/Strix and let our Lackey pass.

I wouldn't cut tarfires, they are too precious.

My removals suit is as followed:

Main deck:
2 tarfires
4 gempalm incinerator
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk/tin street
1 stingscourger

Sideboard:
1 tuktuk/tin street
1 stingscourger
3 pyrokinesis
(2 pyroblast)

After boarding, the removals count goes to 14 (or 16)!! depending of my build.

ok, gotcha ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

I find Sudden Demise very good against Elves, although we already have Pyrokinesis + Sharpshooter to take care of them. Do we really need one more removal for them? Against Mentor, I think Sudden Demise very risky. Most of the time, they can pump their Mentors in response by casting a Brainstorm, a Snapcaster Mage or Sword to Plowshares, whatever 1-2 CMC spells. Sudden Demise to kill angels? Maybe, but realistically, it shouldn't come that far. If yes, it means our gobos were either sleeping or something went wrong with the play sequences. Did you tried flashing/vialing in a Sulfur Elemental against D&T or Mentor? It's awesome :-)

Sulfur Elemental for mentor looks good, but i never actually tried it since i played only few times against miracles and not sure i ever played against mentor version. i used it agains D&T few times, but it's not the best car for them i guess since their x/2 won't die
Sudden demise is in mainly for D&T, but like elves we have already Pyrokinesis and Shooter for them too

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

About your actual sideboard:

Versus Elves, Game 1, you have access to 6 removals: 4 Gempalms, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Pyrokinesis. Post side, you'll have 10 removals with 4 Gempalms, 3 Pyrokinesis, 2 Sharpshooters, 1 Sudden Demise. If you run 2 tarfires main deck instead of the single Pyrokinesis, you'll have 7 removals Game 1 and 12 (4 Gempalms, 3 Pyrokinesis, 2 Tarfires, 2 Sharpshooters, 1 Sudden Demise) after side. But it needs some Sideboard changes. I don't know if it makes sense.

In my opinion, I think a Relic of Progenitus is clearly not enough in the current meta. Relic is the most versatile GY hate and it will help you to empty the GY at will against Reanimator, Dredge and Storm, and it helps you to keep Tarmogoyf not too big, or disturbing DRS. Like 1GoblinLackey wrote it, Tormod's Crypt is too narrow and will only do its stuff once. Against Reanimator, it won't save you, and against BUG decks, it doesn't help you that much that it's relevant to board it in. I would replace it with a 2nd Relic of Progenitus.
I never tried Faerie Macabre and can't tell much about it, except that Relic wins me enough games against Storm or Reanimator, that I don't feel the need to have Faeries.

Fearies could be useful if i think to bring in also Chalice@1.
Relic is very versatile and powerfull in many MU but some times it's just too slow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

In general, in tournaments, we seek for sideboard versatility and answers to the most MUs. Relic will help you everywhere, in comparison where Faerie Macabre will help you only against Storm and Reanimator. That's what the star players keep saying on their blog during their deck tech reviews before a Grand Prix or other big tournaments. Maybe Faerie Macabre suits very well in your local meta.

this make sense too

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

For the info, my actual SB is:

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle / Pyroblast (it depends if a lot a blue decks are around -> then pyroblast. If more miracles/lands/reanimator -> pithing needle)
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
1 Tuktuk Scrapper / Tin Street Hooligan (if a lot of blue deck with TNN and Jitte -> Tuktuk. Is more D&T -> Tin Street, because we have to find a quick answer. Tuktuk is often too slow here.)
1 Stingscourger

what do you think about Pyroblast? can you keep a red open for counter their counterspells and blue threats? when i tried it i found that keep R open sometimes just slow down my game plan too much

i think the goal for my SB now it's to figure out how can chalice work well with other MD and SB pieces since it still looks good to me.. i'll do it as soon as i have a bit of time to, since it seems a tricky work

probably the right thing to do now for me is to try different SB options for my main MU and after try to put my 15 together
03-23-2017, 10:42 AM
Fourbirr

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Hi again,

Quote:

Relic is very versatile and powerful in many MU but some times it's just too slow

Yes sure, it is, but it's also very consistent and has more text than Grafdigger's Cage. It depends on your meta. At a local tournament, I think we can afford to run the Cage, but in big tournaments, I'll prefer Relic.

Quote:

what do you think about Pyroblast? can you keep a red open for counter their counterspells and blue threats? when i tried it i found that keep R open sometimes just slow down my game plan too much

Actually, you'll only keep a R open if you have Pyroblast in your hand. So, depending on your opening hand, you can decide what will be your play sequences. It's just an anecdote, but I remember blasting a Delver, no FoW no Daze, and then Surgical Extraction it. That was sweet, but some cousins would say boarding Surgical was not necessary, and that we can kill delver with our removals. Well, sometimes, you want to surprise your opponent and it pays. Same surprise against Jace. In G2, most Miracle players side out Force of Will against us, because it's pretty useless against Cavern and Vial. Your Pyroblast has very good chance to resolve. Not that it matters much, but if the Miracles player is very strong, the Match-up won't be as easy as it usually is. Pyroblast helps us on the draw. We don't have much to board in against them, by the way. I won't board Pyroblast in against Shardless, because we need as many creatures as possible to be in the best condition to enter a grindy game.

I'm testing Pyroblast since the last weeks, so maybe I'll come to a better conclusion in a few days.
03-23-2017, 11:34 AM
Fourbirr

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xod

Fourbirr, I see that you are splashing white, does it make sense to use rest in peace instead of Relic of Progenitus? Or is it just that turn too slow? I also see the inclusing of Containment Priest, was also thinking about that but currently my sideboard is:

2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Sudden Demise
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Rest in Peace
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Grafdigger's Cage

New goblin player btw, been reading al lot, will post mainboard later, but in case of removal, I play 2 Tarfires, 2 Pyrokinesis and 3 Gempalm main (and shooter and stingscourger)

Hi Xod,

It's always nice to welcome a new member of the horde ^^

I splash white, because Thalia made me wins too many games against unfavorable match-ups like Storm/ANT or Reanimator by slowing them down and she can attacks and has first strike. That's big. I guess splashing black for Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy does the same job. But I never tried that consistently and can't share experiences other than I was always short of black sources and couldn't cast Cabal.

I also splash white for Containment Priest, because, unlike Grafdigger's Cage, it stops Reanimator, Dredge creatures to enter the battlefield. It nullifies Green Sun Zenith and Natural Order. It also stops fatties to enter the battlefield with Sneak Attack or Show & Tell, but not Omniscience, sadly, because they cast them for free, but still can cast them. And last but not least, she can attack and deals damages, too, where, in the above mentioned match-ups, killing your opponent as fast as possible is key.

I think Rest in Peace is very strong, but not in our list. It's better in D&T, because they run 10 white sources. We don't, only 6 fetches and 1 Plateau. At least, with Thalia or Containment Priest, we still can vial them in. If your Plateau meets Wasteland and Rest in Peace eats Abrupt Decay, you have 0 possibility to restore your advantage. It's gone. With Aether Vial and 4 Cavern of Souls + 1 Plateau, it's more likely you can drop your priest and...pray she'll stay long enough till the victory.

Personally, I think Ethersworn Canonist slows us down and it will be a race until she or he finds a decay. How are our chances to survive if we can cast only 1 spell at a time? Maybe the others could share their experiences. I'm not very convinced. But with a Vial in play, this card is great. But your 2-1 Thalia/Canonist split seems a good compromise.

Why do you run only 1 Pyrokinesis in the SB? I suppose you have 2 others in the main, right?

Do you have 1 Stingscourger main deck? Why not a second one in the sideboard? What is your plan against Sneak & Show? Most of the time, when we have a Vial @2, Sneak & Show players wait until they have 2 fatties. Then they taunt us by dropping Griselbrand, which get bounce by our 1st Stingscourger, fine. Then, they activate Sneak Attack ability for the 2nd time for Emrakul. So, you'll be very happy to have a 2nd Stingscourger. Keep in mind he is tutorable, while Pithing Needle isn't :rolleyes: Same story for Lands and Marit Lage, vial @2 and run for Stingscourger, always! Mana denial and Needle on Thespian's Stage should do the rest.

The rest of the side looks fine, but surely requires some tests.

Good luck!
03-23-2017, 01:04 PM
Morkus

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Hi Chieftains,

I'm happy to see this thread dynamic again. It seemed slept three months ago.
I'm going to BOM in 2 weeks. That will be cool to meet Gobolord and sandro again. I will be happy to discover new goblins players.

I'm a regular goblins monoRed player. For ten years playing goblin, I've never splashed any color.
Recently I'm facing a lot of Omnishow and Sneak&Show.
Vs Sneak&Show I've sometimes stolen games with Port and Vial@2/stingscourger or S&T/stingscourger
Vs OmniShow It's harder. This defensive strategy is sterile. The three last frustrating games I've opened with Lackey, some gobs and karakas or Vial@2/stingscourger.
And inevitably, just before dying, my opponent played S&T for omniscience then played Emrakul with one more turn trigger.
I can bounce Emrakul once and he can play it again with one more turn trigger !

So, I tested these matchups with white splash for 3 thalias
I'm not convinced. That's slow their sculpting step but the final result is the same.
We can't recover a game where Omniscience is resolved.
I can reached the same goal with monoRed build, Chalice and Thorn of Amethyst

I'm little more convinced by black splash.
Cabal therapy is a very good weapon. With help of surgical extraction and REB I've increase my number of wins.
I played a 12 players tournament and I lost 3 matches
Maverick 1-2
3rd game I kept a hand with fetch and badland.
I fetch for basic but badland was wasted and land@3 was wasteland land@4 was port. I never had 2 red sources
Infect 1-2
cabal help me to take decisions after viewing opponent's hand
NicFit 1-2
I lost the 3rd game after killing 2 Siege Rhino but I can't manage a Sigarda, Host of Herons. Sadly the Warren Weirding did not help
I didn't play enough basic land for Veteran Explorer

This tournament let me with several questions :
- How many basics/dual/fetch I need to play 3 cabal in side, search fo Veteran Explorer and not be screwed by wasteland.
I tested 2/4/6 and obviously is bad. (currently I play 23 lands: 4xPort 4xwaste 4xcavern 1 Karakas + 12 red)
Is it better with 4/2/6 ? or 4/4/4 ?
- If my opening hand contains lackey and cabal, what is the better play first?
I tested lackey before cabal to create a clock asap but I'm not sure.
I've also play vial before cabal.

At each big tournament, I'm facing Burn. with black splash I lost an average of 2 PV by fetch.
I find this matchup difficult 40/60 and -2PV is a pain.
I'm considering adding a "Zuran Orb". Do you have already tested ?
- More PV versus Burn or Storm
- sac land facing "Price of Progress"
03-23-2017, 02:52 PM
KO Bossy

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourbirr

I also splash white for Containment Priest, because, unlike Grafdigger's Cage, it stops Reanimator, Dredge creatures to enter the battlefield. It nullifies Green Sun Zenith and Natural Order. It also stops fatties to enter the battlefield with Sneak Attack or Show & Tell, but not Omniscience, sadly, because they cast them for free, but still can cast them. And last but not least, she can attack and deals damages, too, where, in the above mentioned match-ups, killing your opponent as fast as possible is key.

Personally, I think Ethersworn Canonist slows us down and it will be a race until she or he finds a decay. How are our chances to survive if we can cast only 1 spell at a time? Maybe the others could share their experiences. I'm not very convinced. But with a Vial in play, this card is great. But your 2-1 Thalia/Canonist split seems a good compromise.

See this is what I'm on the fence about. Priest vs Canonist. My SB is kinda full ATM, maybe I could cut the Blood Moons? I'm not sure exactly, kind of a hard choice.

Here's the way I see it-Priest is awesome vs the MUs you said. Canonist is less good against them. I mean, it can slow them down since, for example, with Elves, they rely on ramping mana with Cradle and constantly replaying Elves with Quirion and Wirewood to reset their Nettle Sentinels before grabbing Craterhoof. To be fair, one Goblin Sharpshooter can clear out those 1/1s, and we can tutor for it. One spell per turn means the ability to ramp is killed. Still, once they hit 4 mana and can cast Natural Order, that's it, whereas Priest prevents that. However, Canonist is superior vs Storm since they don't play creatures, let alone try to cheat them into play.

Now, you're right in that Canonist slows us down by limiting spells. However, look at it this way-Goblins excels at flooding the board with beaters and controlling the general state with specialists and mana denial. Our opponents usually will have one way to get creatures into play-casting them. There are exceptions, like Stoneforge Mystic cheating a Batterskull in or Reanimator. Meantime, we have 3 ways-casting, Vial and Lackey. So in any case, we outnumber our opponents for our ability to get things into play. So we can only cast 1 spell per turn? OK, I'll cast one, Vial another and Lackey (and even Instigator) will drop someone in. In the end, we still come out ahead. I guess that's my mode of thinking.

A 2-1 split as you suggest might be a good idea. I don't want to go overboard on one particular hate type. I mean, Priest is awesome vs S&T, Elves, Reanimator...but we do also have Stingscourger (usually 2 in the 75) to bounce big guys back into our opponents' hands. An in hand Elesh Norn is useless to Renimator and with no Show and Tell or Sneak Attack to replay Emrakul, he's stuck.

Also, aside from Canonist, what's our best way to deal with Storm?
03-23-2017, 03:39 PM
Olaf Forkbeard

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

@Morkus

I'm going to be blunt. Don't expect to beat spell based combo with any consistency WITHOUT sacrificing what the deck is at it's core. This is the opportunity cost of not running Force of Will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morkus

We can't recover a game where Omniscience is resolved.

I'm not really sure many decks in Legacy can? I'm pretty sure that's why they run it as a win con. Additionally Thalia (Thorn), and Ethersworn are some of the ONLY cards that matter when an Omniscience DOES resolve. We just happen to be a deck without counterspells, so it's far harder for us to interact in a meaningful way. There has been some testing in the front of Spirit of the Labyrinth being relevant in the match, as well, but it's just not as versatile as Thalia.

Code:

Likely Percentage of seeing 1 colored source in an opening 7 / number of colored sources in a 60 card deck. Note that if you Mulligan a hand without it, it increases the likelihood of finding the color. 39.9% / 4 47.5% / 5 54.1% / 6 60.1% / 7 65.4% / 8 70.0% / 9 74.1% / 10 77.8% / 11 80.9% / 12 83.7% / 13 86.1% / 14 88.2% / 15 90.1% / 16 91.7% / 17 93.0% / 18 94.1% / 19 95.2% / 20 Hypergeometric Calculator

Consistent is really on your own definition. I would say having it 85% of the time is probably where you should aim for to start casting Cabal Therapy on turn 1. I had issue's with the black splash for the exact reasons you mentioned and rarely run it. If I wanted all of the things, I would need to run 14 colored sources, 4 Port, 4 Waste, and 4 Cavern that would count out to 26 lands. There isn't enough room in the deck so I'm forced to pick Cabal Therapy or tech lands, and I pick Port. In your case 2-4 ports would be the cut.

As for Veteran Explorer specifically, it's each 2 copies that are still in your deck when he dies that matter. So if you run 3 basics you are likely to get 2. If you run 5 you are likely to get 3-4. If you really need something for the match, run more bombs (Krenko, Siege-Gang, Kiki-Jiki), as they are motr valuable than the extra mana in long games. I should note that I think Abzan Nic Fit is the hardest variation for our deck specifically to beat. At least with Jund they run a ton of graveyard dependent things to sweep up with a Relic. Abzan plays fat creatures, and walkers.

Against combo the question on what to run out first is match-up dependent. Lackey goes out first against pretty much all combo decks EXCEPT ones that are all in wins ASAP. Cabal Therapy first against decks like Belcher, and Oops All Spells. Vial is only as good as the creatures you put in, so you have to do that math every time you are comparing Vial to other 1 costs. After that: When in doubt, Lackey out. Sometimes you just get free wins.

Zuran Orb would usually be a KO punch against burn, period. It is rather narrow though. Burn is a spell based match-up though which makes it rough. I tend to beat burn when they draw creature heavy hands, and on the other side, I lose when they cast Lightning Bolt 7 times.

I am dubious as to how relevant the orb is against Storm, but it is kind of funny thinking about the interactions. Makes me smile, but ultimately I'd guess making them wait isn't as good as interacting. If I'm at 27-8 effectively thanks to a Zuran Orb and a fetch or two, they usually can just wait a turn and go off bigger. That might be enough, but it seems like a gamble compared to pulling them down a notch with other hate. I think I learned by writing this that I'd board the Orb in though, even if it's not for them.

---

@KO Bossy

Quote:

Originally Posted by KO Bossy

See this is what I'm on the fence about. Priest vs Canonist. My SB is kinda full ATM, maybe I could cut the Blood Moons? I'm not sure exactly, kind of a hard choice.

I mean it kind of boils down to a dichotomy: Would you rather beat Spells or Fatties?
03-23-2017, 08:41 PM
1GoblinLackey

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Hey everyone!

Great to see so many new people, and that the thread is picking up again!

I'm writing to report I finally broke my losing streak: 4-0 tonight! My rounds were 4C Nic Fit (basically abzan nic fit, but splashing an island for Leovold) (play, 2-0), Elves (2-1, draw), D&T (2-1, play), and Infect (2-1, draw).

Here's the list I ran:

16 core (vial, lackey, matron, ringleader)
3 Warchief
3 Gempalm
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Kiki
1 Siege Gang
1 Krenko
1 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Chieftain

1 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire

5 red fetches
4 Mountains
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
3 Port
2 Badlands
1 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Blood Moon
1 Warping Wail
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Earwig Squad
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Sharpshooter
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Warren Weirding

Some highlights/things to note:

I don't think Nic Fit is that bad a matchup honestly. It might be because I'm running 3 finisher goblins, but I honestly find that I can kill him before he gets to drop a significant number of big things. Port can cut their colors pretty hard; porting green sources stops most of the deck from functioning. Obviously Grafdigger's Cage helps me a lot too, as it blanks GSZ and flashback'd therapies. Pithing Needle is also fantastic against them, primarily naming pernicious deed (though the player at my LGS plays a stoneforge package, so I have to name equipment sometimes too). Siege-Gang was quite nice in my 2nd game, as he had an Elspeth Sun's Champion plussing for 2 turns, but he was at 4. With a ton of mana in play I drop Siege-Gang with a krenko in play, with 2 mana up. He digs with fetches and a top, but can't find the answer (thanks again to Needle on Deed). His Leovold did stop me from porting earlier on, which let him cast the Elspeth in the first place.

Against Elves, I was fortunate enough to have sharpshooter in my opener each time, though unfortunate enough to never draw cage or pyrokinesis. Game 1 it was too slow, but game 2 and 3 I managed to keep him off balance enough to cast it. Game 2 he got a ton of elves into play, but found the natural order just 1 turn too late, so I wiped the board with Sharpshooter. Game 3 he was on the play but mulled to 5, where I had a quite strong hand (fetch, matron, prospector, sharpshooter, wasteland, cabal therapy, and something I can't remember). I decided to turn 1 prospector to have the option of turn 2 sharpshooter. He led on nettle sentinel into another one next turn. My turn 2 I cast therapy to hedge against an abrupt decay, and named NO to make sure I didn't just die. His hand was Heritage Druid and Glimpse of nature. I took the glimpse by saccing the prospector. Not mana efficient, but made sure I didn't die. He then had a very lucky draw of visionary into visionary, and I was getting beat down pretty low. I was at 4 by the time I got sharpshooter into play and active, and I used the a matron to block and be able to kill the x/2s. Very close game, but eventually I got siege gang down and that was GG.

D&T: I felt a little lucky with winning game 1 here: I kept (on the play); Cavern, Lackey, Kiki, Ringleader, Matron, Pyrokinesis, Mogg War Marshal. I knew that if he had a StP, my hand was terrible, but I could beat a blocker, and if I did stumble, then Pyro might hold him off long enough to draw out of it. Luckily for me, he didn't have it, and I put the Kiki into play on t2. Kiki copied the Lackey, and I pyro'd the Thalia, dropping Ringleader and Matron. Got siege-gang next, then he scooped to massive goblins overrun!

Game 2 was close, but I eventually succumbed to fliers. Don't quite remember how this one played out (I recall both of my sharpshooters getting StP'd which hurt a lot). I remember that I wanted to bring in therapies on the draw to take the equipment fetched by a hypothetical t2 stoneforge, but I couldn't find the space. Game 3 was pretty funny, since he ended up hosing himself. I had 2 lackeys active, but didn't have anything to put in with them (all lands in hand). He had a Thalia that blocked 1 lackey, and had vialed in a containment priest to stop lackey from triggering. However, I then got to the point where I was double porting his only 2 plains, with a lackey and war marshal in play against his lone Priest, which he lamented that I wouldn't kill (after the game he showed me a hand full of recruiters and flickerwisps). Eventually I matroned for a tuktuk, killed his vial, and finally gempalm the priest, leaving me to go nuts with lackey.

Infect; Game 1 I mulliganed a slow hand, and my 6 was marginally better. I died to a quick berserk + Invigorate on an inkmoth. Game 2 I got pretty aggressive and he was threat light, so my piledriver got too big for him. Game 3 was similar to my D&T game 3, except I hosed myself with the chalice. I played t1 prospector, then t2 chalice, expecting to have to sac prospector to daze. He didn't have daze, but we had a strange situation where we both had a ton of uncastables in our hands. For my part, I had 2 lackeys, 2 tarfires, a pithing needle, and a vial all stuck in my hand, along with a matron I couldn't cast. I traded the prospector with a necropede (which hurt, as I only had 2 lands) He played 2 inkmoths, which forced me to use my wastelands (top decked a second one eventually to kill the last inkmoth while I was at 5 infect). It was almost comical; we both had to discard to handsize at some point. Eventually, I drew a cavern, which let me cast my lackey. Lackey put in the matron, and I locked up the game from there. He showed me his hand of hydroblast, berserk, elf, brainstorm, and some other cards.

Something I think is an overall problem is that I have some wasted sideboard space. For the BOM event next week, I'm borrowing Chalices so I'll be playing 3 of those total. With that, I'm not sure what to cut. I really like having the second sharpshooter over the 3rd pyrokinesis, so that's something I'd rather not change. I'm also debating which is better in the maindeck; Piledriver or Earwig Squad. Squad is better against Combo (especially in game 1 situations, which I probably can't win otherwise), stoneforge decks, and Miracles, whereas Piledriver is better against BUG decks/TNN decks and bolt decks (UR Delver, Grixis, and Burn). Really debating this one, would appreciate someone else's input on this.

The rest of you have been discussing Cabal Therapy so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents; It's really fantastic. Yes, I have had moments where it's difficult to cast (according to Olaf's stat table, I have a 60% chance of being able to cast it in my opener, which isn't great). However, I think the power increase to the deck makes it worth it. It allows you to proactively disrupt your opponents plan, and it has great synergy with MWM. Something I've been struggling with is deciding which fair matchups to bring it in against, if any? Play or Draw? I know Sandro's been playing with it (maindeck, so that's a bit different), so I'd really appreciate his imput on when to utilize it. D&T, despite vulnerability to wasteland? What about Lands/4C Loam? Which delver variants, if any?

Does anyone have a reasonable metagame breakdown for Paris? I'm expecting Miracles and BUG to be the most popular decks, but that's more of a hunch? Are there any regional differences, like how they seem to love Sneak and Show in Japan?
03-24-2017, 04:45 AM
Fourbirr

Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by KO Bossy

[...]
Now, you're right in that Canonist slows us down by limiting spells. However, look at it this way-Goblins excels at flooding the board with beaters and controlling the general state with specialists and mana denial. Our opponents usually will have one way to get creatures into play-casting them. There are exceptions, like Stoneforge Mystic cheating a Batterskull in or Reanimator. Meantime, we have 3 ways-casting, Vial and Lackey. So in any case, we outnumber our opponents for our ability to get things into play. So we can only cast 1 spell per turn? OK, I'll cast one, Vial another and Lackey (and even Instigator) will drop someone in. In the end, we still come out ahead. I guess that's my mode of thinking.
[...]

I see your point and the thinking makes sense. Unfortunately, on the battlefield, for the same converted mana cost, our creatures power-level is way below the others. Just to name a few: Tarmogoyf, Delver, Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, Nimble Mongoose, Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, and so on. And I'm not talking about delves fatties like Tombstalker or Gurmag. I see the role of Ethersworn Canonist almost uniquely as defensive to beat Combo decks, where Thalia can covers a wider field and be boarded against blue decks on the draw. I suppose you won't feel comfortable against those decks, where we want an answer as quickly as possible. I doubt casting only 1 goblin spell at a time can put us in a good position. Of course, you probably won't bring Canonist in to beat blue decks, it's supposed to beat Combo decks, but the choice is yours.

What are the others players experience with Ethersworn Canonist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KO Bossy

Also, aside from Canonist, what's our best way to deal with Storm?

Control Lock: Chalice, Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst
UPDATE 24.03.2017 14:28
I forgot Mindbreak Trap, of course.
Graveyard hate (against Past in Flames): Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Faerie Macabre, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt
Defense: Sharpshooter (Empty the Warrens)
Aggro: Lackey -> Siege-Gang/Warchief -> Piledriver

By the way, to all other goblin players, please correct me if I'm spreading non-sense and share your experiences. That would be very welcome to help us progress.

See ya!

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