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Did you find your land count too high? I like your list btw, simple and eficient. :tongue:
Goyf Sligh has a good game against Goblins, with the steady amount of burn clearing the way for your beaters. The only way they can win against you is when they reach the late game and go Vial Ringleader, Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, etc. I've rarely lost to Goblins, and most of the few times I lost, it was to a Vintage FCG variant.
Concerning the land count, I have been wondering about it for a while ...
20 lands has several advantages :
- you get your third land drop in time which allows for a more consistent turn 4 kill (very important against combo)
- you are less screwed by wasteland/stifle (such as red thresh)
- you mulligan less often because of one landers
- you can fetch aggressively to fill the graveyard for goyf/lavamancer
- you will have enough for an early fireblast
However you will lose some games against control because your initial onslaught has been dealt with and you topdeck lands instead of gas.
I have considered several cards in replacement of 1 or 2 lands :
- barbarian ring (OK, it's a land) but not a mountain for fireblast, and I only reach threshold against control and if he has killed the lavamancer.
- shard volley : I like the card as a 2 of, but not instead of lands obviously.
- lava spike : good since lategame (turn 4 and after) I usually seek to burn out the oppenent, but I am scared of non versatile burn
- tin-street hooligans : for killing these aether vials or jitte. A bit situational since you need green mana, and it's only a 2/1. Most of the time I am able to burn either opponent or creatures before equipements become really a nuisance.
- maindeck some price of progress/blood moon/magus of the moon : sligthly improves already positive matchups (landstill, thresh), does nothing against most aggro decks
Am I missing sth here ? Flame rift ? I don't really want more creatures since they quickly become useless against blockers (tarmogoyf anyone).
I think the current configuration has some of the best (power/consistency) spells and creatures for the moment, and I don't see the point in putting a random card as 1 or 2 of.
Maybe the best would be to maindeck some sideboard cards if you know your metagame well.
Hi Guys,
I played Goyf Sligh last saturday at a 40-man tournament to a 2nd place finish.
My list was almost identical to the one posted on the last page, but I'll post it anyway.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
7 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
1 Price of Progress
SB
3 Shattering Spree
3 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
I had only 3 Grim Lavamancer available, so I played only 3. I was debating in the car which card I should play a 1-of off, and almost played a single Ball Lightning (for the cool-factor). My friend was warning me all week for Ichorid decks and I got the last minute fear, so I decided to put 3 Crypts in my sideboard. PoP got a mainboard slot (as I really wanted 4) and I cut a Grip and Vortex, figuring I don't have that much land and 4 would be a bit much (which I still think, but they are both almost too good to cut 1 off).
In the end, I never played Ichorid and wonder if it's even played around here.
Short report
Dragon Stompy 2-0
Pretty easy win because of Shattering Spree and too much burn
something 1-2
*shrug* Don't know anymore, sorry
Burn 2-1
This girl played burn with a lot of Ball Lightnings, Volrath's Stronghold and Burning Wish and Rituals.
UGr Thresh 2-1
Close games, lost one to Dragon and Mind Harness, but I pulled out on PoPs.
43 land 2-1
First game he opens with (his only) mb Zuran Orb. Turn 4 Crucible = scoop. Second game I see Ensnaring Bridge and realize I forgot to take out stupid men. Third game I had no more dead weight Goyfs and Apes and burned him out in under 2 minutes.
Welder Survival 2-1
Actually I lost pretty hard, but I know the guy and he couldn't play top 8, so he scooped me in. First game I almost won, but Mesmeric Fiend did me in (otherwise I could've burned him below 0 and burned my Fireblast for Platinum Angel). Second game he rawdogged 2 Shield Spheres and the Survival he needed a turn or 2 before I got to win. This probably isn't that bad of a matchup, but I didn't see any Grips or Orbs.
so, with 5-1 I was first seed going into top 8
quarters: UW Scepter-Chant 2-1
This guy wasn't used to tournaments and it showed in him making sloppy mistakes game 1 (which he still won on Chant-Lock), by giving me like 6 extra turns to find instant burn. I brought in PoP, Grip and Vortex and the game was too easy from there. Most of all this was a very fun game with a lot of friendly banter and a whole lot of jokes from me, him and our friends. Seriously, this guy was the coolest I ever played.
semis: UBr Counterbalance Tog 2-1
He starts game 1 with a turn 1 land, mox, counterbalance, mox imprint nothing 'I thought I had a top too' :S. My hand was very fast, so I thought I had a change. I go turn 1 Mogg Fanatic into blind hit from Counterbalance (Spell Snare, for my Marauders :S). He goes turn 2 Confidant, with Spell Snare backup. I go Marauder into BLIND HIT NO 2 from Counterbalance. From this point I get really pissed off and introvert. We both play blisteringly fast and he takes game 1. I take game 2. Game 3 I go turn 1 Mogg Fanatic into Daze. I go turn 2 Kird Ape. He wastes my Taiga, but I have another fetchland for Taiga. He wastes it again, but I have another fetchland. He triple wastes it, but I have ANOTHER fetchland to take it home. I think I won this on the 20 land-count.
finals: Ug Counterbalance-Nought
This deck was too much. He had Noughts, Goyfs, Counterbalance, Shackles, Stifles and Daze, which fought my deck on all grounds. He even Shackled my Marauders after I removed the last counter, which resulted in a free 3/3 for him. Well, it was a fun game, bad matchup against a very good player (Robert van Medevoort).
In the end I got 2nd and an Underground Sea for my efforts, so that's nice.
I wouldn't change a whole lot to the deck I played. I want to put the 4th Lavamancer in though, he was nuts all day (in contrast to the last time I played GoyfSligh, when he was underwhelming). 4th PoP stays, but in the SB. I guess I'll just take out the Crypts, and put a Grip and a Vortex back again, I don't know yet. Does anyone have opinions about this? I'm a bit hesitant to cut the Crypts because we have a lot of Loam and Survival in our meta. Although, I haven't tested the deck that much to know if it makes matchups better/worse (mostly extra burn is better :P).
Oh yeah, I boarded my Goyfs out a lot. More people who do that?
Cheers,
Joeri
Hi
I finished yesterday as 3rd of 15 people at my lokal tournament.
My list was a little different:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
6 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Barbarian Ring
=22 lands
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
=23 creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
=15 spells
SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Magus of the Moon( I'm still looking for Blood Moons)
4 Price of Progress
3 Choke
The difference between the usual Goyf Sligh lists is, that I play more creatures and not the usual land count of 18. I play 4 Crusher AND 4 Confidants to be sure to have a goddraw in the lategame, which happened pretty often. I also play 22 lands to be able to support the 3rd land drop for Crusher, to feed Crusher and not to be knocked down if ******** stifles my Fetchlands.
Crusher was incredible and won me lots of matches because he became huge pretty quickly and helped me never drawing a land again. I only once wished that he would have been something faster when I played against Iggy Pop. But in the other matches he had an average body of 6 did a lot of pressure.
I tried also the black splash but without much success, your inclusion of crusher seems a good idea since you rely more on the mid-endgame with confidant.
However I have some concerns with your list :
- is quirion dryad relevant with this higher curve ? It's usually played with spells such as lava dart. I would keep keldon marauders in this slot.
- I would definitively play 4 lavamancer
- why only 2 duals of each RG and RB, is it a budget restriction ?
- I don't like moon effects in a Rgb shell, price of progress should be enough to wreck these decks.
- Same with Choke, I think you have a good matchup agains landstill and should be slightly favorable against threshold. And it does not do enough against Faery Stompy.
- if you play black, you could add some discard instead in the board
I'd like to know how you felt about barbarian ring ? With crusher do you have threshold often enough to warrant its inclusion ?
To clear things up, here is the Rgb list I'd play with crusher
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
6 Mountain
=22 lands
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
3 keldon marauders
=23 creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
=15 spells
SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Price of Progress
4 thoughtseize
3 duress
Concerning the classic Rg list, has someone found an idea to replace the 19th or 20th land ? Someone suggested to me Reckless Abandon but even if great with marauders I'm afraid it's too situational.
I would like to suggest 4 manamorposes to be included in this deck because
1. They feed the yard for goyf and mancer
2. Pumps dryad for free
3. Thins the deck and frees up the 4 weakest slots
4. Gives access to black or green even under blood moon
5. It does make mulliganning harder though especially with two in the opening hand
I don't know. Of course it's a possibility, but what to cut? Some lands? I think this discussion is held earlier, when Street Wraith came out. You could go for 4 Manamorphose, 4 Street Wraith, 8 Baubles and have a virtual 44 card deck. I don't know...
--
I played Goyf Sligh again last weekend in a 14 man tournament, placing 3rd.
My list was exactly the same as last week. I didn't have time to really think about it and test a lot and I really liked the list.
T2 Mono-G Treefolk 2-1
So, obviously, I thought I had received the bye. It turns out, Sligh has some difficulties with accelerated fat men backed up with Heartwood Treefolk. The 1 and 2-drops are 0/3 and 1/3 respectively, so your men do next to nothing. I lost game 2 because he got a lot of big men down fast and apparently Dauntless Dourbark has trample when you have another Treefolk and he smashed me for lots. Rest of the game I won fairly easily, but that's probably mostly because he wasn't that experienced and made some weird mistakes like playing a non-creature with a Heartwood Treefolk out when he had the advantage. Game 3 Vortex did like 10 damage to him
43 land 1-2
This is not a bad matchup, but game 1 he won on the back of Zuran Orb. Game 2 his gameplan involves Gambling to that same Zuran Orb. He lays down his cards face-down for me to select one at random to discard. I stare long and hard at them and obviously I choose the Zuran Orb. Game 3 I mulligan to 4 and he goes turn 1 Forest, Manabond, Zuran Orb, eot discard my hand including a Loam... Nice. Draw.
Elves Combo 2-0
Some deck containing lots of elves, Staff of Domination etc. Game 1 he goes land, elf. I Fanatic it. He doesn't have any more land or 1 drop elves. Game 2 he goes land, elf. I burn it. He plays another elf. I Fanatic it. Again he doesn't have any more land...
We play one more for fun (as we were done in under 5 minutes) and he does have some game this time. Turns out though, as long as I keep burning his good elves I just win this matchup.
Rector Survival 2-1
I think he wins game 1. Game 2 I win through Vortex. Game 3 I have double Grip for his Ivory Mask and 1st Survival. He has a 2nd Survival and tutors up a Hierarch going to 12, but has no more creatures. I have a PoP for 8 dmg and Fireblast. Why he didn't go for Squee before Hierarch is a mystery, but I think it saved my butt. Still, his deck is slow-ish and vulnerable to Grip, PoP and Vortex.
Elves 2-1
He played Eladamri, Lords and Garruk, with Thorn of Amethyst and Jitte. I win game 1 very fast, because he kept a slow hand. I punt game 2 when he has an Eladamri and Garruk and I have Goyf and some burn. I burn him and attack him for 5, instead of burning Eladamri and attacking Garruk. His turn he goes Lord, Jitte, Amethyst. I respond by burning his men, but Garruk+Jitte takes it home. Game 3 I win fairly easily again.
--
As long as I dodge combo, the deck seems to perform very good. It punishes bad draws and bad players like nobody's business, which I like. I think it loses to good aggro-control players and combo, but hey, you can't win 'em all.
I have found this to be a non-issue - IOW, not a strong reason for including any card. Is ManaMorphses an instant or sorcery? I don't recall, but you are probably running plenty of Instants already and 4 sorceries - maybe 8 with Chain Lightnings and Rift Bolts in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Kokusho
Not quite. It will always "cost" 2 mana. Yes, you will usually be able to cycle that mana, but it should be tested to see how often that mana doesn't get used. Also, most lists have forsaken Dryads.Quote:
2. Pumps dryad for free
But what slots are those? How often will the card cost us 1 or two life, and how often will that matter? What should we remove from the generally accepted lists? Burn spells? Critters?Quote:
3. Thins the deck and frees up the 4 weakest slots
Is this really needed?Quote:
4. Gives access to black or green even under blood moon
Two in the opening hand sounds like a real pain in the ass.Quote:
5. It does make mulliganning harder though especially with two in the opening hand
Simply put, I'm not really a big fan of cards that don't really do anything, and ultimately, Manamorphsesisies does a bunch of cute minor things but not much of relevance. I also imagine that the card is a crappier top deck than StreetWraith.
When I suggested manamorphose I was thinking of the three color build with a confidant splash. In this case the mana fixing of manamorphose is very useful especially with prevalent moon effects. Also a feature of three color builds is that they do not run basic forests and swamps and smart opponents destroy lands that produce these mana on sight making access to those colors difficult. Considering that the best sideboard cards require green then the mana fixing provided by manamorphose becomes a vital strategy for victory.
As to what to cut for the metamorphose it really depends on your deck composition the meta in the area. Just replace the cards that have underperformed. Besides the manamorphose does not have to be a 4 of. It could just replace 2 or 3 weakest cards in the deck.
This sounds like a terrible exaggeration. Actual testing will be needed since the card doesn't really do anything other than fix mana and cycle. And IF mana fixing was an issue (whihc is debatable), why was Goyf Sligh not running mana fixers like Chromatic Star or Wild Cantor? Both, I understand, are weaker than Manamorphose in many/most conditions , but why has mana-fixing become "vital" now?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Kokusho
-I think that Quirion Dryad is good in this deck, because its single dissynergy is Crusher. But I usually won't play him turn three if I played Dryad turn two, because then I'd like to shoot the way free for my critters. Another idea is, that my opponent has to deal with huge Tarmogoyfs, Dryads, Crushers and useful Confidants. If one sticks, I have already won. And they are 16 cards in my deck. I don't like to make my deck mor "burnish" with the Marauders, because you don't really have creatures who stick and make the game. I don't like to be addicted to draw enough burn to finish your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrcho
-I played only three because I had to cut a creature and I cut him because he was the only critter I don't want twice. I might change cut the Fanatics instead.
-It's a budget restriction. My manabase would look like this:
8 Fetches
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountains
2 Barb Rings
-Blood Moon helps against a lot of decks, especially against ********, which matchup isn't favorable. I also have Choke as a SB card against *****, it should be 3 Hidden Gibbons, but even with the full board it's only slightly favouable against red *****. The chokes will become Vexing Shushers, maybe it will change the matchup heavily. There is no faery stompy in my meta.
-I also already thought of the discard idea, but the problem is: Price of Progress and Blood Moon are uncutable and 90 percent of the ******** decks in my meta have dreadnoughts in their sideboards :cry: against goblins, dredge and me. It's not easy to deal with a turn two dreadnought , so I also have two play Krosan Grip. Discard would help with that problem too, but Survival is also played in my meta(but maybe discard also helps against it). plus, discard is dead in the lategame. I think I'll test test this SB this week:
4Pop
4Blood Moon
4Thoughtseize
3Duress
I'll write how they have been doing.
I don't know who to feel for the Barb Rings. Sometimes they are really great with Crusher in play and are pretty useful, but in other times they just do damage and get wasted. ******** is no problem because if I have no Lavamancers i usually have ***** and if a Lavamancer sticks, I don't care for the "useless" Ring, because the Lavamancer probably deals 6-8damage on its own. Ifound two to be a good number, because you won't see two and it's sometimes the additional burn you need.
The fixers you mentioned are a loss of tempo which is vital in aggro decks. Manamorphose does not cost tempo whiich makes it worlds better than the mana fixing options you mentioned.
It is vital now due to prevalence of metagame decks that disrupt decks using non-basic mana bases. Besides the two color may do without the fixing but the thee cclor build is a different story.
Testing indeed is needed and that is what I am doing. I never said the card was an auto include but a card that should be considered for inclusion.
I'll let the opponent disrupt my manabase. I'll just ride my Goyf and PoP for the win.
Seriously, this is Goyf Sligh. Since when do you need to think about the deck this much? Just put beaters, burn, and lands, and you're all set.
No news here since 4-15 =(
I have been testing this deck alot lately, and I think it has alot of potential. I'm testing 3x maindeck Greater Gargadon, so I have a viable plan for midgame/lategame except goyfs..
Im also planning on testing Countryside Crusher as the "high end" in the curve, not sure about him tho- but his synergy with Fireblast is cool.
Roger over
If it comes to the lategame, you shouldn't be giving your opponent a target for his removal, and especially not such a clumsy one without evasion.
Seriously,
Goyfsligh lists should look somewhat like Burn:
Straight and without any "gimmicks".
Your goal should be to bring your opponent to about 7 life in the first 4-5 rounds. From then on, it's all about topdecking burnspells.
Countryside Crusher is really not too much of a good idea, since you don't want to play a critter that has no evasion, takes huge time to grow huge enough to be good. Crusher needs to be played in Aggro Loam and nowhere else.
Imo the critterbase clearly looks like this:
4 Goyf
4 Mancer
4 Marauder
4 Fanatic
End of story
A black splash isn't necessary as well i think because a) it screws your manabase and b) doesn't make your sideboard so much better that a splash would be needed
So far from me.
@FredMaster
If it really comes to the lategame and you need burn to finish the game, they have probably disrupted you heavily with Counterbalance, Chalice, Circle of protection, etc.
So then you draw a burn spell which is dead since it would get countered or gets prevented.
That's exactly the reason I stopped playing burn because it's too vulnerable. With goyfsligh you can play some critters in the early game and the finish with the critter OR the burn spells.
And yeah, it's true. I give him targets for his removal. Many many targets. He's forced to deal with Goyf, crusher, dryad and confidant. If one of them sticks, I have won. So why should it be better to play creatures like the marauders who vanish after two turns to give his removal a single target named Goyf????? So his removal only has to eat your goyf, while their Goyf will kill you. No marauder will help you with that.
It may be that a black splash screws my manabase but that's why I'm running 22 lands. WOW, I'm really frightened of wasteland. While all other goyf sligh players only play 18 lands, often a stifle on their first fetchland will be enough to screw them for a couple of turns. Also, that's why I'm running a single forest and a single swamp in the deck, because so I can play around it and make Blood Moon in my SB better. Usually when I have for example a goyf and a dryad in my hand, I fetch for a mountain, a Badlands and a forest. If I have Confidants, I do otherwise. It's really not that hard to deal with wasteland if you're running 22 lands.
I never said that the black splash makes my sideboard better and now at the moment I don't think that discard fits into the SB because it's dead in the lategame and there are enough better SB options.
I fully disagree with what you are saying here. So MANY games are ended with a burn spell. In fact, I believe that the basic philosophy of the deck is to beat early and burn later.Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
And how would drawing a critter in the situation you outlined (heavily disrupted by Counterbalance, Chalice, CoP) be better than drawing a burn spell? Counterbalance will likely be able to handle any late game critter. So will Chalice and a CoP (admittedly both depends on the specifics of the situation).
Serious question here that I am way too tired to actually read this thread all over again for the answer:
Why are people running black? What is your reason for running a third color when all you need is to run 3-4 taigas and 1-2 basic forests with a compliment of fetches, round out toa bout 19ish lands, and then pack the rest with 16-19 beaters and a load of burn. What is black for? Goblins? Run Pyroclasms or Flamebreaks. Truth be told, you should have a positive goblins match anyways. Combo? You're probably going to lose even with hand disruption. What the hell do you need black for? Confidant? That is the ONLY reason you're running black, for a fragile as hell draw engine that you don't even really need? You're killing a pretty solid mana base that can run blood moons of it's own for that? When you are thinking about running suboptimal cards such as Manamorphose to stabalize a manabase that shouldn't have problems for a card that is a questionable inclusion in the first place (because you really don't need it) then you might be taking the deck in the wrong direction.
/rant off.
Actually, run Firespout. Sure, it might not always hit every creature like Pyroclasm, but roughly 90% of the time you're only aiming for the ground anyway, and the odds that you'll even be able to spend only :r: or :g: on it are pretty small (in strict terms, they're your odds of playing it for :g::g::g: or :r::r::r:). For all intents and purposes, this is an infinitely more castable Flamebreak. And the possibility of playing it for :g::g::g: to take out just fliers so your ground pounders can clean up the floor is sort of appealing, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel
Although I suppose it doesn't hit players. But you have enough ways to deal your opponent damage, no?
Is this deck going to run Shusher? Answers a lot of problems and bats for 2.