Goblin Recruiter is a really bad idea. Allowing them to basically stack their exactly how they want it, just by playing a goblin body
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Goblin Recruiter is a really bad idea. Allowing them to basically stack their exactly how they want it, just by playing a goblin body
I'm not sure if people are aware of the actual statistical difficulty in finding a turn 1 Necropotence even before every deck gets Mental Misstep. Motherfuckers seem to think it's a Leyline or something.
I'll say let it alone, but Christ, don't compare it to Flash or something.
I mean you just described what the card does, you didn't say why that's too powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by perm
That's because stacking your entire deck while getting a tribal creature is inherently too good, I don't need to say much beyond it doing what it does
http://i.imgur.com/ZXeBX.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by perm
time for dwarf tribal , since recruiters are so broken...
what people seem to forgett is that recruiter may stack his entire pile but that also means they wont draw any other cards of their deck , besides goblins, wich means no perish/krosan grip/lightning bolt and so on
also a resolved cb/top combo renders recruiter useless to some extend, not to mention if u attack their manabase and get their vial after thei play recruiter. i think hes save for an unban these days
I'll bite! I think Mind Twist is a pretty obvious unban. It's not really that good against anything and is worse at selective discard like Duress and Co. and doesn't give you CA as easily as Hymn to Tourach.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I think on a strictly power level discussion Worldgorger Dragon is safe. The problem is that it can draw out games very easily if it's ever in a bad position and that's just not how WotC wants us to play Magic. It also screws up time limits in rounds because starting a new game can take awhile.
I'm much less sure about Recruiter. Best case scenario, it makes Goblins a little better. Worst case? Goblins becomes the Aggro archetype for Legacy. It's also a pretty good Combo deck too if it needs to function as such. Also, I haven't played with the card in forever but stacking your deck with all your Goblins can take up quite a bit of time so it might also fall under the SDT clause that got that card banned in Extended not so long ago. I'm erring on the side of "fuck it, unban it anyways" so I can play with my set. It's been too long.
Recruiter, Food Chain... and there goes the format
you're right, that dwarven recruiter obviously needs to be banned, whats your point
Everyone does know how food chain goblins work right?
Mhh..Recruiter unbanned means that Rec+ Skirk Prospector easily let's you play almost half of your deck by turn 3, if you started with a Vial. Even better with Food Chain, you substantially play every goblin you have in library.Unfortunately ( or luckily, depends on how you see it) K Grip exists- I still don't really know if it is ok to unban. Mind Twist of course it is, and probably Gorger too would be ok. Necro of course not, I'd rather see Bargain or even Mind's Desire unbanned before Necro.
God I hate getting into these debates but, you do know Bargain is better than necro, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Bargain is way worse because it costs six, making it about the power-level of Ad Nauseam, though somewhat better because you don't have the cc-restriction and can therefore run FoW. Necro is seriously better than Flash. With Necro, your two card combo is Ritual, Necro and all you need are a few Tendrils or Illusions/Donate in your deck, cards you actually want to draw because they can win if you don't draw Necro or be pitched to FoW (in the case of Illusions/Donate). Not to mention your combo doesn't get disabled by drawing pieces of the wincon. With Flash your combo is Flash plus Hulk, with at least four cards in the deck you really don't want to draw.
The only thing that might make Bargain scary is Academy Rector.
/edit: @punkrocker: yeah, I was editing my post to be more clear. Sorry for the delay. I should also have mentioned the four Bargain thing, I guess. A resolved Bargain is sure better than Necro. Getting there is what makes Necro much more powerful.
That is very far from the truth. Bargain always nets you one card for one life, and allows you to have much more control. Ad Nauseam you are constantly guessing, Bargain, on the other hand, you know exactly how to handle things. Talking from my experience with Vintage Storm, Bargain is way better. You can also mini tendrils, draw a bunch more cards, and continue storming onwards, where as you can't with Ad Nauseam or Necro for that matter. Bargain makes LED much better also since you get to resolve your spell before cracking it. Rector is about the safest thing you can do with bargain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
Also, no way Necro is better than Flash. Flash is definitely the most degeranate thing Legacy has ever seen. Flash was the closest thing to a Vintage deck that was ever played in Legacy. Necro would be fantastic, definitely broken, but I don't think it'd be anywhere near as good as Flash.
edit: 6 isn't that hard to ramp up to in Storm when built around said card. One last thing, you want to play four Bargains, you don't want to play more than 2 Ad Nauseams
Why Bargain should be better than Necro given the fact that has almost the same amount of specifical mana in its mana cost, but with 3 colorless more? In Vintage, you find yourself with 6 mana to spend way more often than in Legacy. In a vacuum, just by reading cards text, I agree with you. But there are opponents, too, and they won't let you reach 6 mana easily at your full life total.In Legacy the highest cc card that you can play in a storm based deck is Ad Nauseam. And if your deck is build properly to support Ad Nauseam, its cc curve makes Ad Nauseam at the same level of reliability of Bargain-1 card for 1 life. But, there is a huge difference between 5cc and 6cc in a storm combo deck- think about Ritual+ Ritual or Cabal Ritual with threshold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
If 6cc cards were playable easily in storm combo, Null Profusion would be tier1...
You know what? check a standard ANT list. It's average cc is 0.8 (no Grim Tutor)-0.95 ( 1-2 Grim Tutors). I heard that 1 card for 0.8/0.95 life is better than 1 for 1. Plus, 5 cc against 6. Plus, Krosan Grip. Yeah, Vintage is Vintage...welcome to Legacy / sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkRocker1134
I'm not disagreeing with the 6 mana issue being an entirely different level than 5 in current storm decks, it's a huge difference. However, everything the poster above you said is also true. If you resolve a turn 2 bargain and still have roughly 17-20 life, there is no reason you shouldn't be winning right then and there. Null Profusion doesn't have the same "i win now" factor, because if you drop it turn 2, cast say 1 or 2 more cards from hand... you might draw into 2 lands. Discard to 2, pass the turn, pridemage, blow up profusion.... well shit. Necro has the same issue of opening you up to hate cause you can't win the turn you cast it.
With Bargain, you drop that turn 2 and there a significantly smaller chance of fizzling. Similar to how Tide decks don't fizzle very often when they begin to go off with Spiral. Tendrils decks would be built differently, they'd probably be a fuck ton more resilient as well, and they could be just as fast if not faster.
I really don't think that +1 mana would matter over AdN.
First of, I know Vintage is much different than Legacy. My point was, Storm with Bargain is much closer than Vintage storm. Grip matters much less when your going off before theres a big chance of it being active. It still is a concern. You also realize Necro is open to Grip too, right? This is the point I was making. While you get a fresh grip off Necro when its comes down turn 1 or turn 2, it gets Gripped and you're in the same place. Necro can't go off the same turn you play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
You also mention the average life loss, and this is a valid point, however, there are fluctuation with AdN where as this isn't the case with Bargain. I phrased that poorly. I meant that Bargain is always 1-1 where as there is the previously mentioned fluctuation with AdN. As sims said, +1 mana isn't that important, although it would cause Storm decks to be built differently. Are you conceding my other points, because you failed to address them? Instead you decided to fall back upon sarcasm. (I just reread my above post, and didn't mean to come off condescendingly if I did)
If you can't consistently cheat Bargain into play, i don't see how it can be better than AdN. AdN is an instant and cost a whole mana less. Costing 6 (and needing life) in a format where aggro win turn 3.5 is pretty harsh. Time spiral is played because it give mana after cast (we don't have jewelry, this is important) and don't need life, so basically you can cast it even at 1 life and you win since you'll have a lot of mana + a new 7.
Bargain in a format where aggro actually exist and you don't have jewelry is imho comparable in power level to Spiral.
Cheating Bargain with SnT is possible, but stronger than Emrakul? Dunno, what kind of deck would play storm + SnT?
Before discussing bargain we should remember we still have crap on the list like Tax or Twist so zzz.
Mind Twist is probably safe. It's actually not that good in mono-black decks. It has the potential for the most abuse in decks that play a lot of colorless mana accelerators (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Grim Monolith) and a black splash. On a good draw, you could rip your opponent's hand away by turn two. I'm not sure if that is cause for keeping the card banned, though. There's a lot of degenerate things you can do in this format if you can generate a lot of mana, other than a big Mind Twist.
About Bargain:
- First of all, Krosan Grip doesn't really do anything against the card, but if Bargain were unbanned, I'm sure a lot of people would regularly get punished by Grip because of their poor rules knowledge :)))
- It doesn't force you to to play a low curve like Ad Naus does -> gives you access to FoW. However, it's hard/impossible to make FoW work in a Legacy Ritual Storm deck alongside LED and Infernal Tutor, so it's very likely that lists with Bargain would never play FoW, since running a high number of LEDs and ITs would be more important. Basically, I don't think a Bargain deck will fully abuse the fact that it can play with all the high cmc stuff it wants (other than multiple Bargains).
- Can abuse Enlightened Tutor. This interaction is potentially dangerous, since it means you will consistenly be able to ramp out Bargain on turn 2 via LED and a cantrip/Top. E. Tutor is laughably bad when compared with Mystical Tutor, though. MT was on-color and it found acceleration, protection, anti-hate, business and win cons. ET is in a 3rd color, and it finds situational accel (LED), protection (the bad kind: Defense Grid, City of Solitude..), business (only Bargain) and good anti-hate cards (Serenity, Seal of Removal, etc.).
- Pithing Needle. Having your main Storm engine cold'ed by this card seems bad. TES/ANT don't care about Needle. The card is occassionally annoying for DDFT and Spiral Tide (Candalabra), but it's going to be much more crippling against a Bargain deck.
- Like others have mentioned, Bargain costs 1 more to play than AdN and most TES/ANT lists already have a average cmc that's less than 1 (if you include lands), so this means that the card is going to be cast later in the game than AdN on average, and that you also lose more life per card drawn. Despite the fact that you have more ways to tutor for Bargain, if you choose to play E. Tutor, I think this means that AdN will outperform Bargain very often, if not always.
- One significant advantage Bargain has over AdN is that you can stop drawing cards when you're on 1 life, play Infernal Tutor, sac LED, find Tendrils and then cast it for some amount that won't win the game. Now you can continue drawing cards until you win. This is the only scenario where Krosan Grip, Pridemage, etc actually matter.
My verdict: won't be anymore powerful than AdN, and so it won't create some unstoppable monster with a stranglehold on the format.
I agree, and it never really was my argument. I was simply saying that Bargain was better than Necro, which was the original post I was responding to.
Necro was unrestricted for Classic on Modo while back, the card pool at the time was deep enough to build Zoo,Goblins,Cbalance decks, Bant, Merfolk, Team America, Combo Elves(w Clamp and Crafts), Landstills, Rock, Stiflenought, Ad Naus/TES, Dredge if i missed a few forgive me.
Now that was a healthy Classic meta, Combo Elves was great, Zoo performed well and other decks got to play. With Necro the format was all of 3 decks; Necro,Merfolk and Burn after re-restriction format reverted back to Legacy like meta as it was before. Note this was around 2 years ago and Necro also had Demonic Consultation unrestricted(which would show up in every deck; merfolk,Team America,Cbalance,Landstill).
Today Classic is dominated by Bazzars,YWill,Tinker,Oath,Shops,Drains,Gush,Time Vault. Bargain is currently Unrestricted in Classic as is Desire. Making those 2 work isn't easy and Necro is simply faster.. like turn 1-2 fast. Not much any other deck is going to do when you turn 1-2 windmill slam a necro draw 12, ignore their play or FoW/Daze it, untap with your crafted hand and either win or set up a win next turn. Mini Tendrils is a fine play with 3x in the deck finding one in your top 20 cards is simple.
These days, I'd think the primary concern was:Quote:
Originally Posted by swoop
Goblin Recruiter->...-> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker,Lightning Crafter,Skirk Prospector
Yawgmoth's Bargain seems like it is too strong because it's not dependent on having lands in play the way that Time Spiral is. It seems like it could work very well in a Belcher style turn 1 combo deck. From a metagame perspective, WotC also seems to be more for unbanning combo/control cards than straight up combo cards. I'd be looking at other stuff to get unbanned first.
I think top should get the axe just because of time issues. It takes way to long to play a game against counter-top. I have never had a "natural" draw in legacy, but ive come very close (turns) against counter-top. If you look around a tournament when time get's called, it's only the matches with top that are still playing.
wow! Bargain and Desire are unrestricted in classic and don't cause havok? The Dark Ritual archetype really has trouble...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uly Van Hammer
I agree completely. It's not that the card is too powerful, it's just incredibly time consuming. And I really don't think you need Ctop to be in the format for combo decks to be kept in check, plenty of decks without either of those cards have positive combo matchups.
Yeah, Most of the storm decks just seek to abuse LEDs(plural) and YWill. Mystical Tutor is also still unrestricted but is not played as much as LEDs/Infernals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
wtf? Mystical and LED's too? sounds like combo heaven.... wish this could be said about paper vintage -_-
A year of MUD dominance is more than enough ... Dark Ritual needs some love from Innistrad
Ya combo would be tits........
if Workshop decks weren't already overpowered. Without Moxen - Combo isn't fast enough to beat 13 spheres.dec
Right, I'm going to go back to Classical's being irrelevant then. People don't have Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy and apparently they don't even play Bargain.
Hey rukcus,Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I'm curious. How does a workshop deck look like in Classic (for some reason, I cannot access Classic Quarter)
Also, do people imagine Vial and Food Chain are going in the same Goblins list with Recruiter unbanned, and if so, what does the rest of the deck look like? I mean the old FCG ran ESGs and Ancient Tomb, but that was before Vial.
I decided to write a sarcastic post, because I was in a hurry and didn't want to stay 15 minutes in front of my pc to write and organize all my thoughts. However:Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkRocker1134
- Necro is open to Grip as Bargain is. But I think that going Ritual-> Necro, and then Grip, wasted 2 of your resources. While Petal,Ritual, Cabal (with thresh)into Bargain (and this is the fastest way to cheat Bargain into play, or Rit/Rit/Rit if you prefer, or unless you decide to Snt it into play, which is very unlikely), Grip on Bargain actually is like opponent doing double Tourach on you with split second at instant speed! Hooray!
-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro. Any Ant with good hands(I'm not speaking about God hands) can easily drop Necro turn 1-2. While I can't see any way to drop Bargain before turn 3, unless you are really good at drawing God hands.
- Necro turn 1/2 mans that opponent in most cases will not have 3 mana needed to cast Grip, or to activate Pridemage, while turn 3+ will probably have them. The only problem here is the untap you are giving them, but again, this is not *so* bad because even if they destroy your Necro, they will have 2x1'd you, but if they Grip your Bargain, they will at least 4x1 you.
- The problem of the fluctuation of ANT is comparable to the fact of paying 15 lifes off Bargain and being unable to find something to win. Remember that 15/60 is 1/4 of your deck, and there is some possibility that you don't win. Same of a 15 life ( normally 15-20cards) draw off AdN.
(comparing Bargain to Necro in an ANT-like environment is like comparing Leatherback Baloth to Tarmogoyf in Zoo.)
I know the first thing I would do after resolving a Bargain against 3 mana (including a green) post sideboard is pass priority. I'd pass priority so fast after resolving a Bargain. Just bam. Passsed.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Man, don't waste your time trying to point this out, I already tried on the last page and it doesn't seem to have worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by conboy31
Turn 1: Cabal TherapyQuote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Academy Rector, flashback Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain
There's other ways to cheat it into play as well, like Show and Tell.
Worldgorger Dragon is fine to take off the list. Without Bazaar, the engine is kind of shot and if you're going to play Buried Alive, you can just Reanimate a Necrotic Ooze to win now and not be vulnerable to Swords, Grip, any bounce, etc.
Much like they do in Vintage. Only difference is -5 Moxen +5 anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The dominant Shop builds are aggro with Metalworker and lack Smokestack. Steel Hellkite is an incredibly fast beater. The point is that, no matter how broken a combo deck looks on paper, it still have to beat a turn 1 resistor, which many cannot with Moxen.
I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.At this point,if I'd be forced to use Rector to play Bargain, I'd rather SnT it into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jander78
Aren't you the guy that thinks Legacy has lots of ways of getting a turn 1 Necro?Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
I wouldn't consider that a god hand as I've seen it happen enough times. It can happen with Ancent Tomb or City of Traitors and a Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox as well, or in conjuction with Innocent Blood in lieu of Cabal Therapy. Regardless, I was just illustrating a point, all you need is an Academy Rector and a way to kill it..Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast