I don't understand why you keep "mulling" to seven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellistann
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I don't understand why you keep "mulling" to seven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellistann
This is a actually good way to learn how to go off. I'd recommend it for first time player. Its how I learned to goldfish this deck. Then move on to mulligans after like 20-30 games, especially if you've never played storm combo before. You don't want to jump into this deck and learn all the skills at once. Mulligans with this deck is a skill in itself since the fundamental number of cards you need to go off with in a hand is a mere 3. It mulligans better than any other deck in the format period... but its not automatic. You need to learn it. Best start with basic spell chains first, learn IGG loop, Belcher + activation, D4's into natural tendrils, and then get down to more intense lines of play like mid spell chain IGG/PiF, Ewit (if you play it), IT's into Drit to reach 9 storm, other IT tricks mid spell chain, D4's with extra mana floating or specific Pact creatures in play (Wild Cantor for PiF, Arbor if you haven't played a land after D4 + LED), etc. There's quite a lot of decisions and every hand can produce a relatively unique problem that you need to manipulate the deck to solve. Its a lot to handle to try to add mulligans into your first X games with the deck. As a learning video, this doesn't seem like a bad idea; however, Kirby I'd recommend moving on to mulligans after you show all the basic lines of play:Quote:
Originally Posted by lochlan
IGG/PiF loop
D4 into natural tendrils
Belcher + activation (and/or pass the turn)
IT/LED into EtW/Slithermuse (depending on which one you play)
D4 into natural Belcher
D4 into IT (with LED if it happens) into Tendrils
The complex lines of play can be broken down into a list like that. I'll do it sometime in the near future. Must study for a test.
Re: My "mulling" to seven...
Figured people needed to see the most amounts of hands in the least amount of time. Going off with less resources (i.e. true mulliganing) would be less useful than seeing the multitude of lines of play, and those lines of play increase with a normal hand size.
Added more content to the channel:
Game 1 Link has been restored in previous post.
Created Games 6,7,8 and a reshoot of game 8. My camera ran out of memory in the first few minutes of game 8, so it is not just long enough to see a mulligan and a hand that eventually wins.
Game 8 take II explains how the game 8 actually was won, then plays a game for analysis.
Links below:
Game 6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrGCihHLGHo&feature=plcp
Game 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCNy-X12zl0&feature=plcp
Game 8, that got cut off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq9lGSyBDik&feature=plcp
Game 8 take II:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk4rOlPq7Fw&feature=plcp
Was thinking the same thing. Well was actually hoping that these situations would come up naturally in the random videos I was doing... After about 10 videos with randomness, I was going to stop posting the games until one of these situations came up. Or should I keep doing these random videos over and over so people have a larger smaple size of what videos they can watch?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Other idea was to highlight the differences in the builds (LGSI, Tallmen Builds, QSI, that really unstable D7 that sounds awesome with 70% from Direlemming) sideboard plans, then about 10 games post sideboard.
Mulliganning: Gonna have to learn more video editing stuff so I can cut out the shuffling. Those vieos will probably be more time-intesive, i.e. weekends.
@Silent
Test Eternal Witness over Mox Diamond for a little bit if you are finding yourself with those opportunities. I do this myself though I always want to run 1 Manamorphose/Mox Diamond in place of Witness or IGG. Those cards are so powerful though that they are sometimes woth having in the deck. It is tough running all that business but I do think it makes the deck better. The great thing about Witness if if you have Culling in your graveyard, or a threshold Cabal Ritual, it acts like Manamorphose as it just craetures a bunch of black mana. It bumps up the storm +1 so it pars with the draw Morphose would add while of course adding E. Witness tricks.
Still, I want a 1-of Morphose ;_;.
As far as Empty vs Muse, Empty has been winning out for me just as much and more than Muse in testing, especially vs blue. More testing will have to tell though as opening 7 Pact hands are abusable (think of Pact>Arbor/Trow>Culling, or Pact>ESG/Cantor).
Empty the Warrens has definitely been better than Muse so far, especially in my post-board matches. Its just +1 sideboard space really because you want it for the aggro matchup to race bears and you want it for the blue matchup for obvious reasons, though its better against Tempo than against slower control decks. I'm actually going to cut PiF for the time being and test the 2nd one in the post-board.
Also, its time this deck started exploring Bloodmoon post-board. Its just... way too good if you land it early. Fetchlands and duals become completely useless, especially if you can land it with a Duress or Veil, which is completely possible. The post-board manabase just might need to change a bit. I'm thinking of adapting to a board that looks like this:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
1 Autumn's Veil
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Blood Moon
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
That is, if I actually like the 2 maindeck Empty the Warrens. Then the extra Taiga will actually be really, really good. Right now its been lack luster and I kinda want to drop it unless I can run more red cards.
I've been really disappointed with PiF lately. I mostly play against control decks in casual play and even at my locals. People know its coming and they make sure to board in their graveyard hate. So I either run into that or they counter it, or I don't hit the red source, or they Deed away my LED's before I can break both of them. And seriously, how much better is a resolved PiF against blue going to be compared to a resolved Empty the Warrens. EtW gets there against everything but a board wiper (which Tempo completely lacks) or Flusterstorm.
I played at a local today. I played well in the first 2 matches. Then, I got cocky and wiffed a positive matchup and got a bye. Finished a mere 2-2. Not happy.
R1: UB Counterbalance
G1: I won the die roll so its GG if he doesn't have Force. I blasted him turn 1, D4 breaking LED into D4 + x2 LED, into D4 + LED into Belcher. Nuts. 4 LEDs. Tough to beat.
G2: I board in 15. We play the attrition game for a while. This was a fun game that I thought I bagged so many times. I had 2 Carpet of Flowers for the longest time, Duressed him a bunch of times. He landed 2 Dark Confidants though and was beating my face whilst drawing coutnermagic every turn. He had a counter for everything I played and then some. I managed to sneak in an ESG off Carpet and block one of them, and then baited out a few countermagic with Veil after paying for the Spell Pierce, into EtW, but he topdecked a Black Sun Zenith to wipe the board and his dude. Then I played a 3rd and 4th Carpet and a Mirri's Guile. A few turns later I landed double LED, and tried for PiF, and then flashback. He had Counterspell + Force or something (ETW IN ITS PLACE WOULD HAVE WON THIS GAME). Then, he lands Counterbalance/Top/Jace and I proceeed to draw only mana sources, even despite having Mirri's Guile out. Eventually, Jace kills me. Had I been playing the EtW > PiF, I would have won this game.
G3: I have to mull to 6. I have a solid hand and I had LG --> Duress but I decided to wait that way I wouldn't play into Wasteland. If I had one more IMS I could probably go off protected rather than disrupt, playing into the Wasteland. Read into that wrong. I should have Duressed him. He was holding Force/CB but he only had one blue card at the time so I would have got the CB. He landed it turn 2 and Forced my Duress. I didn't draw the IMS so I played a bunch of Chrome Mox's and a Land, which did actually get Wasted, and then I sat on the 2 Mox's without the land for most of the game while he filled up his hand and countered everything. I actually came back after he misplayed a Counterbalance trigger and put the wrong thing on top. Eventually I drew a land and started running him out of Countermagic, but he drew into a Clique and started beating my face. I managed to sneak in a Carpet after he misplayed and revealed a CB instead of a Brainstorm. Then I managed to land EtW for enough to kill but it was a turn too late. I was at 2 and he had a Clique.. and it flies. GG. Subtle misplay on turn 1 led to my eventual downfall. Close game though. This guy was really fucking good despite never having played against me. I think that last play was the only time he made an obvious misplay in the whole match. My turn 1 misplay was also my only misplay; thats how hard the post-board is though. You might have it but if you fuck it up, even one simple mistake can lead to an uphill battle.
1-2
R2: BUG Control (w/ post-board Counterbalance/top)
G1: So I draw 2 Counterbalance decks in a row huh? Good thing I have more playtesting experience against this deck than I have against anything else in Legacy. I win the die roll and land a turn 1 Belcher. He doesn't have Force, activate on the following turn with ESG. GG
G2: We play the attrition game. I get 2 Carpets and start the grind. He Deeds them away and I'm stuck on 2 Bayous. I draw some Petals, IT for more of them. Try to play some Belchers. EtW hits him for 10 and then its gets Deeded away. Eventually I land a Belcher but without enough to activate after paying for 2 Spell Pierces. He kills me with Snapcaster. One turn from getting the kill. He just drew the right cards to kill me in this game and he was very familiar with the matchup from playing with me for a few hours on several separate occasions.
G3: I ghost him. Hard. Duress hits Brainstorm instead of Force, to which he was a little pissed sitting on only one land. I Duress away the Force. Then I go for it, and he Pierces, but I knew that would happen and am ready on the following turn to untap into Veil, which gets countered, into PiF, into Drit, Crit x2, D4 x2, Duress x3 nuking the rest of his hand. All he has is 3 lands. Then he falls over on the next turn when I untap my perps and play Belcher.
2-1
R3 Maverick
G1: Really cocky going into this after playing well against 2 Counterbalance players in a row. I kept a loose hand and it bit me in the ass as he lands turn 2 Thalia. I had PIF, LED x2, Petal, Crit, Crit. All I needed was a D4 to go off. I drew an IT and was short a card of Threshold so I couldn't do anything, played the artifact mana, and passed the turn. He lands Thalia and I just slowly die. Shoulda mulled to 5. The 7 was shit.
G2: I board in 2 EtW Taiga. I keep another loose 7 and the D4 fizzles because the rest of my hand was business. I definitely should have mulled to 6 and chased the EtW a little harder since I had 3 and 4 IT to find it as well. I definitely get lazy against the non-blue players.
0-2
R4 Bye
A lot of people dropped to draft M13.
How do you even win after Maverick resolves Thalia? Hope to actually draw your 1-of land? :confused:
/edit: Forgot about Spirit Guides. However, I don't see how you'd be able to win with "PIF, LED x2, Petal, Crit, Crit" under Thalia.
Usually you just have to mulligan well. I didn't cause he was like talking himself down the whole time about how he hated this matchup and how he was going to lose. I kept loose hands thinking whatever he can't get the turn 2 bear EVERY GAME, but Maverick seriously can. You can't really keep loose hands and expect to get there consistently. I played 2 more games afterwards with him and crushed him turn 1 in both games.
Will the OP ever be updated?
Yeah it probably wasn't going to happen but it was better than not having anything at all to do. In a few turns I had drawn 2 Dark Ritual. Had I also drawn a Land or ESG it would have been enough because of Threshold. Thats like 5 cards to chase and his clock wasn't that fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Either way I'd be more comfortable going to 5 cards than keeping that 6.
@heroicraptor
Yes. Not much changes about the deck except that everyone has pretty much started playing Pact SI vs. the other lists. SITES is still a pretty good list. Maindeck Cabal Therapies and Empty the Warrens is good against blue even before boarding, and the tall men can actually chump when you have to set up against aggro. The deck forgoes Belcher so it plays more lands, making playing around Thalia much more workable. Also, the deck often plays Burning Wish so if you get enough perps, you can use them to play Chrome Moxen and then wipe the board with Burning Wish --> Pyroclasm/Massacre like TES might. It has a lower turn 1 kill rate but slowing down from the fastest list, PSI, might be a decent playstyle call. I've always wanted to play it but I can only play it on Cockatrice because I can't afford Badlands.
Yeah I've been meaning to update the OP actually, just been busy with school.
Against thalia kill them before it lands, otherwise you're pretty much SOL unless you draw really well. Unless you board in creature removal ala slaughter pact, massacre, etc. etc. (I'm pretty sure slaughter pact is our anti hatebear card of choice if we choose to run an anti hate bear card, massacre requires a swamp in play and pyroclasm and such cost too much mana.)
PiF is an interesting card, but I find some people board in blue elemental blast against us and that card blows PiF out hard almost every time postboard. I really only like PiF because it opens up additional lines of play sometimes to keep us from fizzling, although at other times it is super meh.
Also of note against maverick their only hope is to mull to hatebear(s) against us so they definitely can have a hatebear every game unless they're very unlucky or bad and they don't mull to a hatebear. I've seen mav lists upping thalia to a 4 of, although the good news is that most lists don't run gaddock teeg anymore from what I've seen.
I don't see blood moon being that good at all really as a part of the postboard plan. It shuts off our own lands, making them a lot worse and opponents will just spell pierce it or what have you, making it a 3 mana duress really. I'd rather run more thoughtseize/autumn's veil postboard, and as a bonus thoughtseize is good against maverick for stripping their one hatebear out of their hand on turn 1.
Personally, I've never found SITES to be that good in testing. I actually think LGSI has some huge potential - it's easily the scariest list to play against (I remember playing against it when Spanish Tunnel King was running it over PSI). Cabal Therapy with tallmen was horrid! And they could block, too! All while maintaining a very high T1 win rate. I never knew if he was keeping a fast hand (needed FoW) or a disruptive hand (mulling into FoW only to get hit by Therapy makes blue players cry).Quote:
Not much changes about the deck except that everyone has pretty much started playing Pact SI vs. the other lists. SITES is still a pretty good list. Maindeck Cabal Therapies and Empty the Warrens is good against blue even before boarding, and the tall men can actually chump when you have to set up against aggro.
The list probably wants some updating, and I'm too happy playing PSI to devote any time to it, Gitaxian Probe would make the deck effectively 56 cards while playing VERY well with Cabal Therapy. Throw in Dryad Arbor over the second Bayou as a Culling target, and you'd have quite a nice list, even before thinking about Mox Opal or the like (it just seems that a deck that is one third artifacts would actually be able to run Mox Opal, possibly over Chrome Mox to avoid card disadvantage).
I've been testing against Thresh, and I'm not finding it to be a very good matchup (duh), even after boarding. A smart player will focus wherever possible on our initial mana sources while dropping a single threat or two, which usually leaves me with a hand full of business and no way of casting them.
And of course, D4s are pretty weak in the face of a clock.
Anyone have any suggestions? I'm playing PSI, of course.
And while I'm asking, is anyone still playing LGSI?
Yes; mulligan. You need initial mana sources against Thresh. Carpet of Flowers, a Land, Chrome Mox, etc. IT's can find additional IMS's, a play I very much enjoy. In fact, they hate that shit because if you make it to 3 perpetuals, they are screwed unless they draw a Wasteland; Thresh has no way to deal with Chrome Mox, Carpet of Flowers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
I like to keep solid hands full of mana sources, even if I can't do anything yet because it gives you a long game when you are in topdeck mode for the business. If they want to sit there and counter your IMS's, they'll get screwed. Are they gonna Force a Chrome Mox? No. If they Daze it, do you have ESG? Do they have Flusterstorm? ie. Are you playing your business in the right order? ie. if you're holding EtW, play D4's first to draw out Flusterstorm. If you have Belcher, play it sooner if you're already drawn out Force and are sitting on a LED (can play around Pierce + Daze, sometimes Pierce x2) as that plays around everything but the 2nd Force, which is unlikely. I get this often, and the opponent grumbles away telling everyone how their hand would have been BOSS against TES while they were sitting on Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Daze.
The best thing you can really do against Tempo is get fast tokens, as they cannot answer them. 8-10 can either gets there, or builds a lot of pressure while you build back up your hand. Sometimes I've made this pressure more intense by using a Carpet of Flowers to start playing out Elvish Spirit Guide; can't just chump block with Delver all day now. You weaken their clock, make them play more lands and a bunch of creatures, therefore, into Carpet of Flowers to give you a ton of mana to work with. If you get fast tokens, the game should be over soon or relatively easy.
Fast Carpet can be good as Tempo can't really sandbag you on Islands as easily as control in the really early game. They know that if they don't get a clock on soon they might be fucked, so they have to crack at least one fetch for an Island. If, after that, you encounter Daze, then you've met a worthy opponent; however, Duress/Veil/IT becomes important here as well because it makes them want to hold onto some lands. If you can play threats that don't make you ritual accelerate because you've hit 1 or 2 perpetuals, then you have an easier time running them out of countermagic and saving your rituals.
IMS are the most important thing but if they counter them, remember, if you haven't played Land Grant, then they don't know if you have a lot of IMS, a lot of rituals, or a lot of business.. so they are really gambling. The safest thing to counter is always the business spell because then the SI player loses the most resources. If you Force Chrome Mox, for the SI player its 2 for 1, hardly ideal for the control player. Spell Pierce/Daze/Snare are likely to counter your perpetuals but I tend to play these out as soon as possible that way if I draw, say, a Land Grant, that encounters a Spell Pierce while I have a Bayou and a Petal out, I can use the Petal to pay for it and get a 2nd perp. This happens in multiple variations. I've even used LED to pay for Spell Pierce when it teched me up to 5 perpetuals. Ideally, you want to mulligan into a hand with a lot of IMS because thats the safest way to go into topdeck mode, which happens naturally with the grind plan anyway; however, this deck has a savage topdeck mode so I feel far more comfortable going into it if I can hit 3 perpetuals.
While you are grinding, you have 2 goals. The first priority is to hit 3 perpetual resources. The second priority is to go off and kill your opponent. As long as you keep the first priority as hit those perpetuals, your long game will be better. If the second priority is first, then you wind up going for an early IT/LED into a kill that never happens. ITs go toward Chrome Moxen and Land Grants early game for me. I also like finding Dark Rituals or Duress. LED is also a good choice since its a solid card in topdeck mode to help you play around Spell Pierce/Daze. Its also good for having mana floating post-D4. IT is sort of a tricky piece of the post-board plan. When I see other people play my deck, usually they try to hold on to it early as some sort of kill condition. This rarely works if your opponent plays Spell Snare. I try to use it early, especially if I know I have a Land Grant in hand and want to draw out Spell Snare on IT instead.
More on the IMS as counter targets... initially this might be a frustrating control play style but you get used to it. Most people counter the business spells, so when you encounter someone who doesn't do that you have to learn how to adjust. Mostly you solve this problem with mulligans. IMS/perp hands are always safer hands to keep because you never know if they opponent will play this way. Also, if they go for anything with Daze, note whether or not you have that spare mana floating, or if you have an ESG.
One of my favorite plays is Land, Dark Ritual, Duress, IT --> Chrome Mox/LG/Duress. They let the Ritual resolve thinking, yes, I get a 2 for 2, and then ha you get to 1 for 1 them with Duress followed by IT --> perpetual or protection spell. I don't always go for the fast D4 against Tempo.
A cross post from the Stormboards for those who don't check there. I'm very interested in this new SI variant I've been testing. It loses some flexibility but gains in consistency. It has the speed of PSI, but avoids the Pact triggers.
Quote:
I was testing against Thresh today, and I was disappointed with how PSI was performing, so I also ran some tests with SITES and LGSI. While the results were not all that much better, I was impressed by some of the plays non-Pact SI could make, simply because it could afford to win the next turn after landing Belcher or EtW.
Of course, PSI has the advantage of fast mana, which is why it is so explosive. But after thinking about this for a bit, I wondered why LGSI couldn't have fast mana too. Instead of playing 4 Pact and 4 ESG, why not just play 4 SSG and 4 ESG?
The more I thought about this, the more it made sense. 90% of the time I'm Pacting for ESG, which is off colour mana anyway. Would it make any difference if they were SSG?
Curious, I took a standard PSI list and just treated all the Pacts as SSG, and all random creatures as Kobolds (except Dryad Arbor, obviously). I played about 40 games (goldfishing), and compared how I would play the deck with, and without, the substitutions. In the overwhelming majority of games, the substitution made either no difference or strongly improved the combo. I potentially lost one game where a Pact for Eternal Witness for Cruel Bargain would have allowed me to keep going, but it would not have been a guaranteed win.
On the other hand, I found myself mulling far less (an shaky opening hand dependent on Pact for mana needs to be thrown back, whereas SSG does not have that problem), and won several games that would have been losses or potential losses with a Pact trigger pending. EtW became far more powerful, as you could simply draw into it mid combo and win, dumping 16+ goblins without worrying about dying in your upkeep. The same was true of Belcher activations that required you to untap or where there was still a single land in the deck (40% chance of requiring a second activation).
So far, I'm very happy with the changes, and I'm going to keep testing. Has anyone else tried something similar?
I have also been playing around with LGSI, because I found the idea of cabal therapy very strong and fun. Maybe the better way is what you said with the conversion of the PSI list but I certainly enjoyed cabal therapy with 8 kobols/tall men whatever you may call them. In your list, did you cut down on creatures total? (like in psi you have pact+creatures). Not sure if I want to keep playing the protection as in cabal therapy or want more IMS in the form of Spirit guides. Ill see if I can test both options in the upcoming days!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
For testing, I simply called each of my three creatures (Wild Cantor, Odious Trow, Eternal Witness) Kobolds. This was just a stop-gap measure, but I really liked the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
The truth is, Wild Cantor and Odious Trow are not actually good Culling targets anyway, because they cost mana to cast. Even if you have the extra mana available, you've made your Culling the Weak far less efficient (it's just Dark Ritual with card disadvantage).
For this reason, Dryad Arbor has always been the go-to Culling Target, and that hasn't changed since it can still be tutored for with Land Grant. However, the 0cc creatures also make combo chains feel far smoother. Three may not be the perfect number, but it's still a pretty good number.
Obviously, CtW and tallmen have good synergy with Cabal Therapy, but in a version built for speed (such as PSI/G(uide)SI) I don't think it's really worth it. This being the case, there is an argument for taking out CtW altogether, but because of the BBB demands the deck makes the only alternative candidate is Manamorphose which does not actually produce mana.
Of course, taking out CtW and the tallmen in favour of Burning Wish and some red rituals might work now that the SSG provide additional red mana.
Right now, though, I'm going to keep working on incremental changes, and I want to let the eight spirit guides bed in before making other changes.
Has Pact really been that much of a problem? You don't even encounter it every game and when you do it isn't always necessary to cast it.
I wouldn't run less than 8 virtual tall men or Culling the Weak becomes a dead card often and its one of the strongest rituals in the shell. The Pact list conserves space the best so that you can run Pact as either a mana source or a tallman, meaning that you technically only have to play 2-4 Pact targets and then you get +4 ESG which is massively helpful in the post-board. I wouldn't go back to LGSI; ESG is too good post-board and Cabal Therapy doesn't guarentee that you'll be able to go off. I'd play SITES before I played LGSI where you get a different grind plan with a lot of maindeck lands, which makes the grind plan D4's specialized vs. Belcher specialized in the Pact list. That list can also play 4 maindeck Empty the Warrens. Silent Requiem, you might want to try that list before you try making changes like this to the Pact list.
In a large sample size, you'll find Culling the Weak to dead pretty often. The Pact list runs 4 Land Grant, 4 Pact, often 1 Wild Cantor, 1 Odious Trow, and lately I've been playing 1 Skyshroud Cutter.. thats a total of 8 virtual tallmen and 3 non-virtual. 11 tallmen in LGSI would be a supreme lack of space unless you were trying to play Glimpse of Nature, Diabolic Intent, etc. We get to play that naturally while the 8 virtual targets also function as mana sources. So those 3 tallmen that you draw off D4's aren't dead as often when you don't need them for the spell chain. Actually, Wild Cantor has been by far the best one to draw in my experience as it gets you +1 closer to Threshold, color fixes a spare G to B, or serves as a Culling the Weak target, versus Odious Trow which has limited applications as either a tallmen castable off black mana or a Chrome Mox imprint, and Skyshroud Cutter which is purely an alternative costed Culling the Weak target with no other purpose.
So what I'm saying.. is the Pact list is actually a bit easier to play with and is more consistent because your cards have multiple potential functions while the LGSI and SITES lists are limited to tallmen. Tallmen function as blockers in those lists and delay the game a bit, but its not often relevant because nowadays your opponent is playing Maverick and has a bear in the turns where tallmen might have been relevant against a deck that's trying to race you. Now they can play maindeck disruption in the form of Thalia, and GSZ --> Teeg, so the traditional tallmen lose a serious amount of value. The Pact list also has the easiest time casting Culling the Weak when you have it in hand because it plays so many targets.
I'm actually curious to test a list that plays Glimpse of Nature again. Skyshroud Cutter is pretty boss costing 0 with a Bayou, meaning that we could potentially chain those and Pacts together to draw extra cards with Glimpse of Nature like Iranon's list did, but without taking up a lot of space for tallmen. Opens up the possibility of Burnt Offering as well. I'll report back if something winds up being good.
First up, I'd like to thank everyone here for a great read! It's taken me a few days to digest all this, but it's been worth it.
So after looking at a few different strategies for a competitive legacy deck, this and conventional G/R Charbelcher look like fun, and pleasantly use a lot of the same cards.
Although this deck does look like more fun!!
Cheers to Vacrix for posting in my thread and suggesting I take a look here.:wink:
I have a few questions, could you guys give me some feedback before I start dropping cash on big-money cards?
I should explain, I have combo deck experience, but I have only basic goldfishing with this deck so far.
Should I think of PACT SI in it's current state (decklist below) as the best, and most competitive version of the deck?
By best, I mean most likely to win against a variety of matchups, due to speed, consistency etc.
How Important is [card]Past in Flames[/card]?
After goldfishing the deck over on mtgdeckbuilder, the card has use for sure, but I'm finding that with 3 or 4 Charbelcher it just isn't necessary most of the time.
Should I always be looking to play one of either this OR [card]Eternal Witness[/card]?
I tried it out with either, and I'm not really sure either is optimal......
[card]Manamorphose[/card]?
What does this card do for the deck besides help you cast those tricky spells without cracking a LED? I gave it a go with both 'Muse & PiF in the deck, and I found almost every time I drew this card I was disappointed I didn't get something else.
Lastly, considering Odious Trow & Wild Cantor are the best things we can imprint with the Chrome Mox, has anyone tried out other creatures that give greater options to cover Muse?
I realise it's not a 0 or 1-drop, so it's suboptimal aswell as the fact it's missing G for paying off a Pact (just in case), but wondering if you guys had tried Grixis Grimblade? (or even Jund Hackblade?)
Okay, so here's my (ripped off & totally unoriginal) list;
PACT SI
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal COntract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Goblin CHarbelcher
1 Slithermuse
1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor
1 Grixis Grimblade
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritul
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus PEtal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
--== Sideboard ==-
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
2 Autumn's Veil
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
Hi! Let me try to answer some of your questions :)
I think so, yes. It is the most explosive list we have and Summoner's Pact is just a great card. You can use it as a sac-outlet or basically a Elvish Spirit Guide with Storm and the possibility to be flashbacked with Past in Flames. I don't understand why people are cutting the pacts. It's a huge step back considering deck development. Maybe it's related to the new EtW-MB-trend.Quote:
Should I think of PACT SI in it's current state (decklist below) as the best, and most competitive version of the deck?
By best, I mean most likely to win against a variety of matchups, due to speed, consistency etc.
Imho Past in Flames is a huge card. But if you do a lot of testing and still don't like it, the proper ersatz would be Ill-gotten gains. Eternal Witness, I believe, is an attempt to make SPact a business spell as well, but that's to greedy in my opinion. Past in Flames however is sometimes a very difficult card to play with, because it opens up long and hard to calculate spellchains. IGG is easier to use, but that does not make it a bad card. I play PiF>IGG in my deck, but there are situations where I'd give very much for IGG.Quote:
How Important is [card]Past in Flames[/card]?
After goldfishing the deck over on mtgdeckbuilder, the card has use for sure, but I'm finding that with 3 or 4 Charbelcher it just isn't necessary most of the time.
Should I always be looking to play one of either this OR [card]Eternal Witness[/card]?
I tried it out with either, and I'm not really sure either is optimal......
I still play two MM and I like them. You can get a free card when flashbacking them and I've had ample situations where MM formed my IMS in conjunction with ESG and/or SPact.Quote:
[card]Manamorphose[/card]?
What does this card do for the deck besides help you cast those tricky spells without cracking a LED? I gave it a go with both 'Muse & PiF in the deck, and I found almost every time I drew this card I was disappointed I didn't get something else.
I don't understand the usage of Grixis Grimblade at all :eyebrow:. Sorry. Why use this card? You can't fetch it and your other MC card is the trow. Please explain :smile:Quote:
Lastly, considering Odious Trow & Wild Cantor are the best things we can imprint with the Chrome Mox, has anyone tried out other creatures that give greater options to cover Muse?
I realise it's not a 0 or 1-drop, so it's suboptimal aswell as the fact it's missing G for paying off a Pact (just in case), but wondering if you guys had tried [card]Grixis Grimblade[/card]?
Since my last tournament (I went 4:2, but could not make T8 -.-) I play Skyshroud Cutter > Trow. Saving 1 mana is huge in some plays and I never missed the trow for Chrome Mox
I hope everyone will forgive me if I think "out loud". I'm new to SI, but loving the deck, and trying to do what every Storm pilot does when they encounter a new archetype - build the custom deck that fit's their play style!
It seems to me that every SI build revolves in trying to find a balance between certain tensions within the deck. Each build tackles that differently, generating different advantages and disadvantages. I'm going to consider two of those tensions here from a deck building perspective.
Culling the Weak v Goblin Charbelcher
The best CtW target, hands down, is Dryad Arbor. It costs nothing to cast (except your land drop for that turn), and can be tutored for with Fetchlands, Summoner's Pact, or Land Grant without requiring any additional mana investment. It's fantastic.
However, Goblin Charbelcher wants as few lands in the deck as possible. Having even one land left in the deck means that you have no better than a 60% chance of Belching for lethal, and you may not have the time or resources for a second Belch. There have been many, many goldfish hands (with PSI) that would have been an auto win if not for that second pesky land!
It therefore seems to me that decks that play Dryad Arbor want to minimize the dependence on Goblin Charbelcher (at least in game 1). Shockingly, the one SI deck that does not play Charbelcher, SITES, also does not play Dryad Arbor (instead favouring a clunky 7-Kobold approach to CtW)!
Summoner's Pact v Empty the Warrens
Obviously, there is a bit of an issue when one card requires you to win right now, and another lets you win in two turns. Can this be played around? Sure, much of the time. But not all the time.
I've had plenty of hands where casting EtW would be a win, but I can't because I've got a Pact Trigger to think about. Sometimes I can keep going and win some other way. Sometimes I just lose.
It's important to recognize why EtW is useful, and that's because we are often able to tutor with four floating, but without lethal storm for ToA. This is why Slithermuse has been used - it fills the same slot, but (unreliably) allows for a "win now" rather than an unavailable "win later".
Choosing a bias
As deck builders, we resolve these tensions by choosing to favour one side over the other. It's not perfect, and there will be circumstances where an alternate choice would have given us a win, but it at least consistent. We have a general idea of how the deck will behave.
So, a deck that wants to emphasize Charbelcher wins should think hard about dropping Dryad Arbor. A deck that wants to run Dryad Arbor should think hard about how many Charbelcher's it's going to run.
Equally, a deck that runs Summoner's Pact is usually going to be better off with Slithermuse, and a deck that wants to run EtW probably doesn't want to run Summoner's Pact.
Edit:
PSI has two things going for it. First, it has seen the most development time recently. This makes it better than the alternatives as they currently stand, but not necessarily better in terms of potential. Both LGSI and SITES could be radically improved by adding Dryad Arbor (which is fetchable in both decks), for example, and cutting the number of dead tallmen they run as a consequence.Quote:
Should I think of PACT SI in it's current state (decklist below) as the best, and most competitive version of the deck?
By best, I mean most likely to win against a variety of matchups, due to speed, consistency etc.
Second, the current meta has comparatively little blue in it as Maverick has been busy stomping on all the blue decks. This makes the drawbacks of PSI (dying if you fizzle after casting Pact) less of an issue, because we will see less turn 1 disruption. And Thalia rewards combo decks that can race the hatebears, which again emphasizes PSI's strengths.
Thanks for the help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerrain
So in regard to Manamorphose - what would you take out for it from my list?
Okay, so Grisix GB is just a thought, not something I know if it works very well as yet.
Grimblade would purely be a target for Chrome Mox.
You know that situation where you're playing a blind D4 with otherwise an empty hand, an LED on the table but no other blue mana, and hoping for a Slithermuse?
Instead of having to crack the LED and taking a punt on the 'muse and calling "blue" when you crack the LED;
I thought having the grimblade would potentially make chrome mox a little more useful, and mean LED sac's would be a little less of a punt.
I realise this isn't the point of having the Trow or Cantor etc. in the deck, so this is just a petty cute idea with no value right?
On another thought, considering the EtW builds that I've read about, are they running a singleton Goblin Bushwhacker as a haste enabler? Should they?
One other thing I'm curious about.
Land Grant.
Do any of you regularly get Dryad Arbor first? I always go for the Bayou unless I need a Culling target to continue.
Is there any other reason to not play pick Bayou first everytime?
Okay, so after a fair bit more goldfishing - I understand why Shyshroud Cutter is like a million times better than Grimblade could ever be.:confused:
Cheers for pointing that out.
And I'm liking Manamorphose a fair bit more too post board when I pop in 3x EtW, Carpets, PiF.
On that, PiF is one I'm still not sure on. There have been times when it's been a house, but I'm finding it's harder to cast the longer the game goes on.
E.g.
Plays against Burn; I'm finding casting two D4's is suicidal, making fuel for Cabal Rit. and PiF much harder.
What do you guys do against Burn if your first turn chain fizzles?
Well, I've gone back to basics, using the stock PSI list (-1 MM, +1 Wild Cantor). I'd begun to feel like the "improvements" I was making were turning the list into a weird Belcher clone, and Belcher just does that better. I'm focusing now on just tightening my play.
The sideboard is a little open though, and I wonder whether Autumn's Veil is better than Duress in an open meta.
Against control, AV and Duress do the same thing - void a counter for one mana. However, AV can void multiple conditional counters, just as Silence can. You can also hold it back and cast it only after countermagic has been used, which keeps your options open longer (an unnecessary Duress might still force you into a more risky spell chain).
Although it takes harder to find green mana to cast, AV also imprints for green, which makes casting your critical Carpets easier to cast. Overall, I'm thinking AV is better than Duress against control, and you don't bring either of them in against aggro.
But what about the combo matchup? If they are on the play, they might be able to slow you down long enough with their own discard effects that they go off first. Duress let's you fight back, while AV would be useless.
And what about combo decks packing chant? This could really wreck us with a Pact trigger pending, and AV again offers no protection, while Duress might actually help.
Advice and insight on Autumn's Veil vs Duress would be appreciated.
Edit: Perhaps even more importantly, I'd like opinions on the deck as a whole - is this a real contender in most metas, or does it only work when there is very little blue about? ANT seems to top 8 in major tournaments all the time, but you never see SI. I know that very few people play it, but that in itself probably says something. Is SI anything more than a pet deck?
I've been very dissatisfied with P.S.I. lately. Against Maverick we need at least a 90 % turn 1 OTD win ratio and I just couldn't get there on ~500 goldfishs.
I'm now trying to fit in cards like
Energy Tap
Infernal Plunge
Sacrifice
Burnt Offering
Songs of the Damned
more Skyshroud Cutters
Allosaurus Rider
in the deck, as Vacrix already mentioned. I have not gotten very far by now, any advice?
On the Duress vs Autumn's Veil topic:
I'd always play 4 Duress. Discarding is just very strong against S&S and Reanimator (which I find to be a very hard match-up). I even went so far and tried to dismiss AV for Thoughtseize. The double lifeloss has not hurt me, but I must say, I have not done enough testing with it. Maybe Unmask is the better choice here. Both cards are very expensive in foil, though :( .
I'm working on a new version that slows down to play protection. Looks pretty cool so far, I'll post it when its goldfishing better.
That would be great. There's a small tournament on 19th of this month and I'm not really sure what I'm gonna play there. Ditching P.S.I. for Goblins would hurt me.
Looking forward to your list.
Night of souls betrayal?
Dread of night?
Massacre?
All hit thalia, qasali and teag
Do not play night of souls' betrayal. Ever. I see zero reason to play that card over dread of night. Massacre in this deck is awkward BECAUSE you need to have the one of bayou in play to make it free. Personally, I'd just stick with slaughter pact for creature removal. It's what I use as a 2 of personally in my current board.
Grixis grimblade isn't green, unlike odious trow. The whole point of trow is that you can pact for it. Grimblade can't be pacted for. I often hate raw drawing pact targets, in fact I've fizzled because I drew a pact target instead of pact itself. When you naturally draw witness, the card is almost always terrible. I've since cut it from my list though for being an incredibly awkward card.
Sorry. Just bouncing ideas. I figure dread is good against maverick and two can lock em out of bears.
What is your current list?
I'm kinda undecided between Belcher and SI, the decks purpose is the same but I don't really know which one fits me better or is just better in the current meta. Which one do you guys feel its the strongest atm? also, Belcher's last decklist were pretty similar, I have no problem in building that deck, but the SI is much harder for me o build: the primer is outdated and I can't find any recent decklists, can someone help me on this please? Cheers!
I second the fact that the primer is seriously outdated.Quote:
Originally Posted by skincoffin
I am not pros so I too would really appreciate if someone of higher caliber players in here would revamp it. Not the whole damn thing of course; but maybe a revamp on the lists covered in the primer would be good.
Cheers
I second that! I love playing wacky decks and love it even more if there is a serious ammount of skill involved into playing that deck to a good result. Not really having an up-to-date list of SI is what is stopping me from picking up this deck and taking it to a tournament. Because of the nature of the deck, I want to goldfish it a lot before doing this. So... Is there a good list out there? And if yes, care to share it with us?
Agreed. PSI is the most popular build largely because it's the most up-to-date. If SITES or LGSI were to get some similar love, I'm sure more people would play them.
Sadly, while I can tinker with decks with some success, my deck-building skills are not up to the challenge of completely overhauling and updating something as complex as storm combo, and I rely on far better deck-builders than I to provide the framework.
I am playing this deck since summer 2008 with more or less success. It always made fun to play and build around it.
You are right. But SI is too special to make use of every new good cards around. Since the printing of Odious Trow and the inclusion of Slithermuse the deck hasn't made any change. PiF has't changed anything.Quote:
I second the fact that the primer is seriously outdated.
In 2008 some of my friends build this list, I think it's still in the first thread.Quote:
If SITES or LGSI were to get some similar love, I'm sure more people would play them.
//LGSI
2 Bayou
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Oxidize
4 Tombstalker
3 Tomb of Urami
They had a lot of sucess on mws (against serious decks at that time), but they never completed SI in RL because of cruel bargain... I would make those changes:
- 1 IGG/ + 1 PiF
- X Chrome mox -X SSG/ + Mox Opal
and cut the Stalkers in the SB !!!
Maybe someone can test the list to give some feedback. EtW seems strong right now :)
SITES has potential, but SI becomes with wish even more random than before.
I gave SITES a try, became bored and included pact. This list want to kill on turn 1 or die trying. If someone is curious write me a PM.
// Mana
2 Gemstone mone
2 City of traitors
4 LED
4 petal
4 pact
4 SSG
4 ESG
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 Burning wish
2 cabal ritual
//Business
1 Crop rotation
1 ancestral knowledge
4 gitaxian probe
2 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel bargain
4 Meditate
3 Brainstorm
//SB
1 Tendrils
1 ETW
1 Grapeshot
1 Toimb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 Nature's claim
1 Duress
1 Autumns veil
1 Defense Grid
1 Xantid Swarm
1 pact of negation
1 Pyroblast
I gave up on SI. I will sleeve it up again, when wizards will print something broken for SI or ban ANT/Doomsday :D :D :D. The day will come. Until that I will win more tournaments with stasis ;) Sorry for the bad english :(
So what you're saying is that ANT/Doomsday are broken decks and are much better options (as a storm/combo deck) than SI?Quote:
Originally Posted by the resurrection
I looked through some other threads and found this D7SI list, it was said to be the fastest Spanish !nquisition deck posted. I know it was a tad experimantal; but I will put it up.
Business (19)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Eternal Witness
Mana: (41)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
SB
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain/IGG
1 Grapeshot
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Duress
I have added Past in Flames in my version of this list but honestly the PiF is not required very often and I think that the more I run the list, the more I want to go back to that original list posted.
I hope it helps, I do like the PSI as well though, and I think that the PSI version should be the one we focus our efforts on to develop into today's meta and the Primer.
This is an ancient list, it was originally posted July 4, 2010. You can also find this list--originally created by Direlemming on the Storm Boards--on page 24 of this very thread. The deck was hyped up a lot by Vacrix because Direlemming was getting, in his words, "70% T1 with this list; no fizzles in the last 50 games." I strongly believe that 1) he can probably get a lot more out of this list than 99% of anyone who attempts to play it and 2) variance was very much in his favor during this testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupREME-10
I tested this list quite a bit last year and calling it "a tad experimantal [sic]" is being polite. This deck is extremely unstable on top of being difficult to play. There are some interesting ideas in this deck but IMO the biggest problem is that the mana isn't even close to good enough.
I believe that the current builds that have more sane mana requirements and Charbelcher are stronger and more consistent.
Edit: Also,
The D7 list is still very much "PSI"--it's running Summoner's Pact.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupREME-10
Since "my" D7 version came up a couple of times now, I would like to offer some clarification and retrospective. While I fully stand behind my results (with the obvious caveat about variance, although the later versions, more or less optimised for goldfishing, were quite stable), the deck is very very hard to play. For shit & giggles I picked it up again before writing this and my results were horrendous. When I posted that result SI was pretty much the only deck I played or worked on, so I was really intimate with it; besides I was playing a lot of poker at the time, so I was pretty versed in estimating probabilities and purging decision trees on the fly. If I were to pick SI for a tournament now (I wouldn't: there are some much more promising derivates being developed on the Storm Boards at the moment), I would pick a list with belcher, no BW or Muse and a red splash for PiF and EtW.
Just adding my agreement to what DireLemming has said. I'm playing a PSI build that is -1 Tendrils, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Slithermuse, -1 Manamorphose, +1 EtW, +1 Past in Flames, +2 SSG. So far, I'm really liking it.
I've managed to ditch three cards I never wanted to draw plus a kill card, and get an alternate kill, and three cards that I love drawing into. The added ability to make R out of nothing (the SSG) has great synergy with EtW and PiF, and they also make my Infernal Tutors more powerful (we've all had hands that would win if we could just ditch the Slithermuse/Witness to get hellbent, I'm sure).
The one weakness of this build is that I have no good IT target for 4 mana floating, less than 9 storm and a Pact trigger pending. Of course, it's not as if Slithermuse would have given me much better than 50:50 odds, so I don't see that as too much of a loss. I can still wish for Cruel Bargain, and D4 with one mana floating.
Alright. Small tournament. 14 or so people. 4 rounds
The list is basic psi.
Round 1
Mono black no pox.
Nice guy. Asks me what I'm playing and I say storm. He says ok. That's cool.
We roll and I win. I'm on the play.
Game 1:
I rip an amazing 7. Declare that I'm going to keep and he says 'hopefully this game will be full of interaction and we won'tiss any lands drops to which I simply smerk and ask him if he's ready.
I go balls to the wall, chain in tendrils for 20 off a single d4.
Game 2:
Him and I joke back and forth about his comment and what deck I'm playing.
He says he gonna play and we cut.
I rip 7 cards that is 1 card short of good. At 6 I get all mana. At 5, I just keep: it, esg, esg, culling the weak and tendrils.
Game goes as expected. 2 inquition and a thoughtseize later we are reshuffling
Game 3: (spoiler: most painful match ever)
I'm on the play and we cut. I draw all mana, then to 6, all business.
I opt to pile shuffle real quick and pull 5 off the top that are decent: esg, it, lions, d4, Dr
I keep and pass. He plays swamp, inquisition my it and then surgixals it.
I stay cool and continue playing. He turn two hymns me for belcher(last draw) and lions eye.
I continue playing cool hand Luke. He then turn threes liliana followed by turn four hymn and jitte.
We get to the point where lillies is at 8 and I scoop bc he can kill my hand forever and a single nighthawk of his four will do.the job fast w jitte.
0-1 (1-2)
Round 2
Played this guy last week. I know he's on lands.
I turn 1 him last week game 1 and again game 3
Today went a little different.
Game 1:
I'm on the draw. I keep a saucy hand and draw into a d4 that allows me to go off and do exactsies tendrils.
Game 2: I mull and mull and mull. First 7, crap. Next 6, crap. 5, shitty.
I play a few turns, draw into oblivion and scoop.
Game 3: goes the same way. Shitty mull after shitty mull.
0-2 (2-4)
Round 3
High tide
This match can be summed up by it, saccing led and him forcing the tutor.
Utterly butthurt.
0-3 (2-6)
Last round I got the bye. Pathetically.
I found a few problems with my play. I was mulling pretty aggressive bc I am so used to working in only turn 1 and 2 wins.
I also found mb empty to be lackluster. Pact triggers can be a bitch so I took it out for a second morphose.
Also, sideboard issues. I hated, HATED, the defense grids. They didn't do anything that and I wanted something for annoying art/ench so my board for the win a box this afternoon is:
4 carpet
4 duress
2 natures claim
2 empty
1 thoughtseize
1 past in flames
1 taiga